All-Stock Elitism?

[James Kerman]

If it works for you and is enjoyable then why care if it offends someone else's notion of the game.

In life there are always going to be differing opinions.  I don't get upset by someone posting elitist comments about anything as they are just explaining what works and is enjoyable for them in a more forceful way and this does not effect my game.  The human psyche, being what it is, can create issues where none exist in reality.

Individuality is what makes us interesting and accepting that you need to be willing to accept there will be many perspectives on everything - even if you don't agree with them.  Without individuality we are the Borg (I don't mind if people want to be Borg - so long as they don't assimilate me).

[adsii1970]

3 hours ago, SSgt Baloo said:

Some of you obviously haven't had the pleasure of having your discussion of a mod interrupted by someone whose only contribution to the conversation is "I never use mods. Mods are cheating." I've only seen it happen on these forums a couple of times (and I don't go looking for things like that), but it's never pleasant, it's never necessary, and it's always completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I feel your pain, have often had similar discussions with the "no Mechjeb" and "no Kerbal Engineer Redux" crowd. In the end, I simply say that what makes KSP so great is it can accommodate a broad range of playing styles.

The problem comes in when any one player claims their way to play is the only correct way...and all others are either wrong or cheating. I have a "live and let live" attitude... Show me some great screen captures - with or without mods and I'll show you mine!

[SSgt Baloo]

3 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

I feel your pain, have often had similar discussions with the "no Mechjeb" and "no Kerbal Engineer Redux" crowd. In the end, I simply say that what makes KSP so great is it can accommodate a broad range of playing styles.

The problem comes in when any one player claims their way to play is the only correct way...and all others are either wrong or cheating. I have a "live and let live" attitude... Show me some great screen captures - with or without mods and I'll show you mine!

 

 

When I was a part of the gaming community we called this "BadWrongFun". It was a term intended to be derisive of people who believed their interpretation of the rules was superior to anyone else's, even if they were disputing with the author of those rules, himself.

Edited December 21, 2016 by SSgt Baloo

[adsii1970]

Just now, SSgt Baloo said:

When I was a part of the gaming community we called this "BadWrongFun". It was a term intended to be derisive of people who believed their interpretation of the rules was superior to anyone else's, even if they were disputing with the author himself.

Now that's a term I haven't heard in... Um, thirty years?

I'm notorious for using mods in ways the mod creators never imagined... And I often get complements from them! I think if I were ever jumped on by a mod creator for "abusing" their mod... I'd immediately delete it...

[W. Kerman]

I may be guilty of this.  My eexperiences with mods have sucked been learning opportunities...

. About what glitches can look like in their most terrorizing forms

(Interstellar extended)

. Don't use mods that are for a different version than you have

(F.A.R)

. Using mods can really screw up your game

(Common sense  )

__-----_-_-_-_---------------_-–·_---+------+--

With all of that, I think the stock elite are just people who had bad times with mods. (B9 parts only attaching to other B9 part??)

  

[jarmund]

I do feel that it is an issue, but probably for other reasons than the poll suggests.

First of all, it's my firm belief that everyone should play the game as they see fit, that's what's the most important.

For most games I play all stock. at least for the vast majority of the game. Exceptions are usually if there's something I find horribly wrong with an otherwise fine game, such as Fallout 3 weapon damage (way too low, and the player can take too much damage, resulting in a way too easy game. There's a mod that changes that).

I remember saying at one point regarding mods "I prefer to play the game as the creators intended, at least until first completion".

However, my feelings for this in KSP is slightly different, because I don't see mods as something that changes the game, but they add to it and elevate the experience. A friend of mine, who hasn't logged that many hours in KSP, mentioned that he was struggling with docking, and I informed him about Navyfish's Docking Alignment Indicator, to which he opined that he too preferred stock, but for the same reasons I listed above - He doesn't want to play a different game than the one he purchased. But to that I say that KSPs strength lies in the fact that it can be modded to whatever degree you see fit, be it just adding RCS sounds to a complete realism overhaul.

Today I play a heavily modded game, but I somehow feel that up to a point it might as well be considered stock, as most of my mods are info-mods, tweaks, and additions, while not changing the core. The biggest gamechanger (in its literal sense) extraplanetary launchpads, basebuilding, and KIS/KAS. At one point I will use a different solar system, or at least additional planets, but I'm not through with the stock system yet. Could this be some remnant of any stock elitism? I think it may be. But the important aspect is that a game can be "vanilla enough" for people like me, while still playing with mods.

But to reiterate the most important thing already mentioned plenty of times in this thread: Everyone should play whichever way gives them the most enjoyment of the game, being pure stock, with or without info-mods, or spending all day hyperediting Orion-powered submarine-bases into Sarnus.

[Sharpy]

3 hours ago, jarmund said:

I remember saying at one point regarding mods "I prefer to play the game as the creators intended, at least until first completion".

That was my approach too. Although I quickly made concessions for KER, PreciseNode and Stock Bugfix Modules. Especially the last let me play the game as the creators intended, as opposed to how they unwittingly made it

I got a good thousand hours in before I began adding more mods.

Currently, I'm running a very heavily modded career (my GameData is about 3GB). Primarily parts mods.

It's just that... sometimes, when building a new craft, there's just this stupid feeling, like a girl opening a full wardrobe and saying "I have nothing to wear".

[James M]

Console players like myself can't mod the game when we don't particularly like something, so a topic based on stock KSP is a wonderful place for learning new ways to go about solving our problems. 

[Mjarf]

The only type of mods I don't like is weapons mods, if I want to fly spaceships with weapons, I'll play that kind of game. KSP for me is about peaceful space exploration. That being said, I don't judge others on how they prefer to play KSP, as others have said, we all have different ways to get the most joy out of this awesome game. I like building unnecessarily big and complex exploration vessels while others like to build interplanetary battlecruisers, while others prefer to just tinker with the "vanilla" game.

That's one of the great things about KSP, there's more than one way to enjoy it.

[Jarin]

On 12/20/2016 at 7:49 AM, regex said:

Just thought I'd point out that if you build something using only stock/vanilla parts, not everyone can use it; many RO installs are heavily pruned (by mods) that remove as many tanks and wings (and other parts) as possible in favor of their procedural counterparts. Then there's the fact that engines and fuels change dramatically so there's no real way to use them without change anyway. The assertion that "everyone can use it" is false. Rather, you could say "everyone that I want to be able to use it can" or "everyone who still plays KSP like I do can use it". vOv

I have come to accept that you RO folks are basically playing a different game than I am, and that's great. But there's never going to be crossplay with craft.

[StuLong]

Tempest in a teacup.

 

How can anyone consider either stock or modded to be superior, when mods have become stock?  Let's say there are folks who truly believe that stock is superior to mod. If a mod gets rolled into stock, as has happened, do you think those people will refuse to make use of the new 'stock' functionality simply because it used to be an external mod? Somehow, I think not.

[ErgionThorn]

On 17/12/2016 at 9:47 PM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

I'm one of those people for who a "stock" game has about 5 mods in it. I see all of these threads, especially in the Spacecraft Exchange, with (STOCK!) in the title, and I think "why?! what's wrong with mods, which make the game better!?" I understand that some people don't want things like hyperdrives or whatever, but most modders at least try to balance their mods to stock standards. We should be aware of all-stock elitism where all-stock players think they're "better" than modded players, even the ones who play with RemoteTech and/or RO and the like. Who thinks this is a problem? Why does it exist? How can we stop it without being rude?

Pinging @Van Disaster

many ppl dont mod because wanna play on the long run and in that case mods will most likely break the savegame, you cant play after bigger releases until the mods are updated, IF they get updated... im one of those play only with my own mods, there is nothing elitism in it. thats a fact that many mod gives advantage so when its about a challenge its obvious stock and modded crafts cant be measured the same way but other than that? i cant see any other problems. if you play with mods or not it doesnt affect me so why would i care? this is a single player game. when in crafts there is (STOCK!) in name it just means anybody can use it, no need for mods. simple... i dont even understand where these thoughts are coming.

Edited December 23, 2016 by ErgionThorn

[Musicrafter]

I am a mostly-stock player. I used only one mod, and that was MechJeb, and now that's slowly becoming unnecessary. I used to use MechJeb to do everything for me -- but I've since learned how to do almost everything manually, so I don't even put a MechJeb unit on my rockets anymore. I only use it in the assembly buildings to give me delta-V readouts, because I'm too lazy to do the calculations by hand -- and then before launching, I remove it so I'm not tempted to "cheat" by automating something.

I think the allure of stock is that it's harder to do certain things than with mods. Hinges, joints, and the like have to be somehow cobbled together out of the limited parts available. Making a good stock vehicle, I think, is more difficult than a modded vehicle, especially the challenge of making it look good whilst being functional. Mods also make the game much more complex, often to the point that a lot of players cannot understand what is going on in the game due to the heavy modding. I personally like KSP because it's not amazingly realistic, and it's a lot simpler to think about than actual rocket science.

Heavy modding also means that every time the game updates, your save file is ruined until the mods you're using are updated, which may take a long time. This is no concern in stock games. You can also share ships with people more easily, since a stock ship will work on everyone's games, not just the games that happen to have the specific mod set you have.

[Jonfliesgoats]

I used to play on PC with MJ and KER.  Now I am on consoles I have no  ability to use mods.  I find the game is MORE fun this way.  I am not sure all-stock involved elitism as much as finding tools and reference on your own.  There is a little more decision and learning involved, and that is fun.  Also, you are little more invested in each flight.

I find I have a lot more fun when I deliberately avoid using revert to launch or revert to VAB functions.  A lot more thought is involved and you actually start developing test protocols.  Now an expensive crash can break your space program.  

I don't think this involves any elitism becuase I don't look down on players who use MJ or KER.  Perhaps this is because I used to use these mods myself?

Edited December 24, 2016 by Jonfliesgoats

[GoSlash27]

 Let's assume just for the sake of argument that people who play stock *do* think they're better than you. So what? Why are you so concerned about someone else's opinion? More importantly, what gives you the right to dictate what others are allowed to think?

 No, "stock elitism" isn't a thing, let alone a problem. It certainly doesn't need to be fixed.

[Enceos]

Honestly, I can't afford to have a stock only game. My CPU can't handle several 200 part crafts at the same time. Mod's dramatically reduce the partcount required to make an aesthetic and functional spacecraft. But I love when people share their crafts made with stock only parts. Means I can download and use them right away. I usually adapt them by switching in parts from my modded install.

One thing is explosions of high partcount pure stock crafts are more spectacular.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Enceos

[Rath]

 

2 hours ago, Enceos said:

Honestly, I can't afford to have a stock only game. My CPU can't handle several 200 part crafts at the same time. Mod's dramatically reduce the partcount required to make an aesthetic and functional spacecraft. But I love when people share their crafts made with stock only parts. Means I can download and use them right away. I usually adapt them by switching in parts from my modded install.

One thing is explosions of high partcount pure stock crafts are more spectacular.

High partcount explosions are so glorious.  I had a ~3000 (!) part space station get nailed by a 300 spent part stage going retrograde and the thermometers that I had been using to attach the rotating jab module looked like explosive decompression propelled  debris.

 

Back on topic very few people on this forum have claimed that anyone is doing their fun wrongingly. 

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

This whole thread makes me itch. 

Spoiler

I'd ask why this argument was worth anyone's time, but here I am...

Go start a new save, or something. Take a break and try another game for a bit.

[Kaiser82]

Ive never heard of this for a single player game, why would you even care if someone didnt approve of how ypu play? i'd say those people are a problem if their opinion affected anything, but it doesnt.

[Kerbart]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:09 PM, regex said:

That moment when you realize three moderators have already posted in this thread on the topic and things were fairly civil.

The posts that haven't been deleted, you mean.
 

The only moment it becomes a problem is when people are telling me that “the only proper way” to play the game is stock. Scratch that. It’s not a problem; I simply ignore them.

Can’t we dedicate our energy to more important things? Like people using "straight quotes" instead of proper “curly quotes” instead?

[Superfluous J]

33 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Can’t we dedicate our energy to more important things? Like people using "straight quotes" instead of proper “curly quotes” instead?

What about 'single quotes'?

[HafCoJoe]

I like to call myself a stock part purist, not elitist  - There's nothing wrong with mods, the real reason I don't use them is because I want to be able to do everything in my game that I could in a vanilla game, the only mods that I use are purely aesthetic, other than the few quality of life mods I run as well.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Avera9eJoe

[322997am]

I PLAY with BDA and HE. BDA is mostly for the ai and physics and HE is for the lander.

[Frybert]

18 hours ago, Avera9eJoe said:

 the only mods that I use are purely aesthetic, other than the few quality of life mods I run as well.

Trying to improve the quality of your life? That's cheating. Please leave immediately.

[klgraham1013]

36 minutes ago, Frybert said:

Trying to improve the quality of your life? That's cheating. Please leave immediately.

Is it cheating?  Someone should start a thread so we can determine an answer.  Possibly with a poll.