totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[Heinoceros]

29 minutes ago, mcortez said:

Maybe I gave up too early, I got the Transport Computer -- but since I couldn't get access to the Transport Module, I didn't think I could actually move any goods around.  Can you setup a route and move resources without having access to the Transport Module?  I may have just answered it myself, is the key here to setup a route that uses no stages and loses no mass, so that you can generate a zero transport credit route?

yea, as long as the route costs zero, you can do it before you get the transport module. I have a nice reasonably bulky electric prop plane, and its a bit sluggish but it will happily cruise at 150m/s. But the warp is really hard on prop planes, so it takes a while in 1x. But you can hit the nearest 4 biomes relatively quickly.

15 hours ago, Murdabenne said:

I have it in my "head canon" that these folks who "disappear" into WOLF simply worked for the Kerbal Space Program, and now have quit and gone to work for the private agency that is doing all the unseen work behind WOLF, for the KSP.

Think NASA and Space-X: For one-off or science or exploration, NASA continues to be the leader.   Once SpaceX gets Starship+HeavyBooster going, they will be a big pipeline for "stuff that goes to space" as far as NASA is concerned.  Stuff goes in here, stuff comes out there, on a regular basis.   it works like that for personnel too: Pilot Joe and Engineer Fred were working at NASA, but they left to go work for SpaceX -- they didn't die, but NASA no longer sees them, so from NASA point of view they no longer exist. So same goes for us being KSP and SpaceX being WOLF.

WOLF: The Privatization of Space Logistics.  That sort-of makes USI into "SpaceX for Kerbals"

That is exactly the rationale i have settled on. They have essentially just transferred to another agency (or in your example private contractor).  

 

[RoverDude]

38 minutes ago, mcortez said:

Maybe I gave up too early, I got the Transport Computer -- but since I couldn't get access to the Transport Module, I didn't think I could actually move any goods around.  Can you setup a route and move resources without having access to the Transport Module?  I may have just answered it myself, is the key here to setup a route that uses no stages and loses no mass, so that you can generate a zero transport credit route?

Yep - since you can do ground routes with electric rovers, it's easy to get some initial zero-cost transport routes.

 

[mcortez]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

Yep - since you can do ground routes with electric rovers, it's easy to get some initial zero-cost transport routes.

 

Hrm, is an electric SSTO a thing?  

[RoverDude]

11 minutes ago, mcortez said:

Hrm, is an electric SSTO a thing?  

For orbit, you would actually need the transport module to make credits

[MaxPeck]

1 hour ago, mcortez said:

Maybe I gave up too early, I got the Transport Computer -- but since I couldn't get access to the Transport Module, I didn't think I could actually move any goods around.  Can you setup a route and move resources without having access to the Transport Module?  I may have just answered it myself, is the key here to setup a route that uses no stages and loses no mass, so that you can generate a zero transport credit route?

Exactly.  My understanding is that transport credits are based on the amount of mass shed between launch and arrival.  Electric rovers on the surface cost zero, so you can set up depots in all of the surrounding biomes and ship their resources to KSC, but that’s where the gravy train ends.  To get those resources off-world you need transport credits, which you can’t generate until you read the far end of the logistics branch of the tech tree.  So now I’ve got a mass accumulation of food and material kits available at KSC and nowhere to go with them, unless I want to just hopper them into a vehicle on the pad and recover it for some quick pocket change.  I love the concept, but for career, it’s too far down the tech tree to be useful or usable.   I might try my hand at hacking together a MM patch to redistribute the modules around the tech tree.

[Atlas Gaming]

20 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Because they are a permanent resource for that resource chain. 

Fair enough... I'd just like the option - maybe at less efficiency - to run in automated mode... maybe  if they break  after a year or something they need to be rebuilt from scratch...  I can do full ISRU automated right now. Seems odd that to reduce part count requires Kerbals  to go prison 

[RoverDude]

5 minutes ago, Atlas Gaming said:

Fair enough... I'd just like the option - maybe at less efficiency - to run in automated mode... maybe  if they break  after a year or something they need to be rebuilt from scratch...  I can do full ISRU automated right now. Seems odd that to reduce part count requires Kerbals  to go prison 

The problem is that WOLF has zero temporal coupling.  So anything related to time is basically a no-go.

 

19 minutes ago, MaxPeck said:

Exactly.  My understanding is that transport credits are based on the amount of mass shed between launch and arrival.  Electric rovers on the surface cost zero, so you can set up depots in all of the surrounding biomes and ship their resources to KSC, but that’s where the gravy train ends.  To get those resources off-world you need transport credits, which you can’t generate until you read the far end of the logistics branch of the tech tree.  So now I’ve got a mass accumulation of food and material kits available at KSC and nowhere to go with them, unless I want to just hopper them into a vehicle on the pad and recover it for some quick pocket change.  I love the concept, but for career, it’s too far down the tech tree to be useful or usable.   I might try my hand at hacking together a MM patch to redistribute the modules around the tech tree.

It really depends on what part of the tech tree you gun for in your career.  WOLF Is really one of those capstone things you do as you get into multiple colonies, etc.    because once you're in WOLF land - the real question becomes 'what's next?'  There's not much space left in the colonization space after that.

[JamesonKerbal]

1 hour ago, mcortez said:

may have just answered it myself, is the key here to setup a route that uses no stages and loses no mass, so that you can generate a zero transport credit route?

Yes! This is why the tutorial focusses on setting up routes between biomes on Kerrin using electric rovers.

I use nuclear electric because I abuse Bon Voyage to do the driving for me and BV wants to see energy production above maximum energy consumption at all times.

As for routes to orbit, WOLF wants your vessel to be in a stable orbit with periapsis above terrain or atmosphere, and I believe there is an upper bound too — so no capturing to Minmus on a highly elliptical orbit to save mass on the circularisation burn.

 

[mcortez]

2 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

once you're in WOLF land - the real question becomes 'what's next?'  There's not much space left in the colonization space after that.

I guess from my point of view, I was going to establish a Kerbin or Minmus orbital base to act as a construction yard, or at least refueling depot before ever even trying to get to Duna.  So I usually have pretty extensive/large traditional MKS bases in half a dozen biomes on Minmus to support building ships there and an orbital refueling station -- along with all the kraken bait, lag, and catch-up logistics involved in that. 

Previously my end-game was building mega cruise ships that transported dozens of kerbals around the system, or building a Tundra based colony on Duna.  Now it's mega-ships or building dome cities on Duna using Atlas.   So looking at the last couple of nodes along the tech tree, I guess for me Colonization and Advanced Colonization are flipped. 

Looks like to get the Transport Module working requires access to every module except Fabricator, Manufacturing and Waste Recycling.  So I might consider moving up the others a node or two and moving Atlas to the last node.

I might shift things around a little like (R is Ranger, D is Duna, T1 is a couple of the Tundra Parts for Stations, T2 is the rest of Tunda, and A are the Atlas parts):

Spoiler

I'll need to spend some time noodling over how I want my end-game to look like under the new system.  I've got plenty of time, it'll probably be a couple weeks before I'm past the point where I'd be using Duna parts.

Questions:

• It's been so long since I tried, does the old logistics system have anything for surface to orbit resource sharing?  I vaguely remember planetary logistics, but I can't remember if that includes low orbit or not.
• With WOLF is there any way to generate WOLF Fuel for things like the Transport Module without using the Bioreactor?  I would have thought something like the Refinery would be able to create fuel, but that doesn't seem to be one of the available outputs.

[RoverDude]

6 minutes ago, mcortez said:

• It's been so long since I tried, does the old logistics system have anything for surface to orbit resource sharing?  I vaguely remember planetary logistics, but I can't remember if that includes low orbit or not.
• With WOLF is there any way to generate WOLF Fuel for things like the Transport Module without using the Bioreactor?  I would have thought something like the Refinery would be able to create fuel, but that doesn't seem to be one of the available outputs.

PlanLog nope - OrbLog yes.  Though these will (eventually) be deprecated.

And there should be an easy ore->fuel option in WOLF.

 

[mcortez]

3 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

PlanLog nope - OrbLog yes.  Though these will (eventually) be deprecated.

And there should be an easy ore->fuel option in WOLF.

 

I'll take another pass through WOLF looking for an Ore -> Fuel option.  I found various things to LF/OX, or the other various fuels that you'd export via hoppers -- but I didn't see anything on your chart that showed WOLF Fuel as an export.  But your Word Document does show the refinery as having Fuel as an output, I'll take a second look at it on the morrow!   Thanks again Roverdude for everything you do!

[Brigadier]

As per your request @RoverDude, I would like to mention that it would be nice if the WOLF Dashboard were scalable in the VAB/SPH (heck...everywhere) where it gets in the way when I'm constructing a depot.  When I  add WOLF parts and I need to access the PAWs which appear all over the place, often right underneath the Dashboard so I'm constantly moving it.  Its default height can be unnecessarily large, too.  If I don't care to see the Harvestable Resource half, I can concentrate on the top-half Resources and reduce screen clutter.

Edit: I guess one workaround is to move the Dashboard to the extreme right-hand side and partially hide it that way but then I risk losing it altogether if I'm not careful.

Edit 2: An observation: The Dashboard permits click-throughs, so clicking on the Dashboard's buttons can select parts, sometimes completely hidden by the dialog, behind it.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Brigadier
Added workaround & observation

[Brigadier]

I'm trying to follow the WOLF tutorial on the wiki but none of the 3 biomes around the KSC (KSC, Shores and Lowland) have Dirt listed under Harvestable Resources.  I realize the tutorial is a WIP.

I'm on KSP 1.10.1 and a JNSQ install with Rational Resources.  Could that latter mod be the problem?

How would one make suggestions for the wiki tutorial?

Edit:  After further investigation, I discovered that, yes, RR completely removes the Dirt resource and replaces it with Rock and restricts Ore as well.  These two mods appear to be incompatible from a game-play perspective, unless there's a way to reinstate Dirt under RR (which there might be).

Edited January 5, 2021 by Brigadier

[Murdabenne]

Might want to consider tech tree remodel KTT adaptability?

[eberkain]

If I have a Kontainer at my base, a single part laying on the ground by its self.  And it is flagged as a debris, is it in dager of getting removed via the max-debris option in the setting menu?  

[RoverDude]

11 minutes ago, eberkain said:

If I have a Kontainer at my base, a single part laying on the ground by its self.  And it is flagged as a debris, is it in dager of getting removed via the max-debris option in the setting menu?  

Yes

6 hours ago, Murdabenne said:

Might want to consider tech tree remodel KTT adaptability?

I personally use CTT, but if someone wants to do a PR for KTT I would happily take it.

7 hours ago, Brigadier said:

I'm trying to follow the WOLF tutorial on the wiki but none of the 3 biomes around the KSC (KSC, Shores and Lowland) have Dirt listed under Harvestable Resources.  I realize the tutorial is a WIP.

I'm on KSP 1.10.1 and a JNSQ install with Rational Resources.  Could that latter mod be the problem?

How would one make suggestions for the wiki tutorial?

Edit:  After further investigation, I discovered that, yes, RR completely removes the Dirt resource and replaces it with Rock and restricts Ore as well.  These two mods appear to be incompatible from a game-play perspective, unless there's a way to reinstate Dirt under RR (which there might be).

tbh, that approach of killing resources so fundamentally goes against how I built stock (and against how CRP is meant to work) that it's downright shameful.  

[eberkain]

I'm trying to figure out how much a drill is going to produce before I actually go deploy it.  

I see pages on the Wiki for mining and Eff and Load, and Crew Skills.  

My base has 4.25% MetallicOre according to the PAW of the Surface Scanning Module

I have 122.6% Geology Rating in the Kolony Dashboard. 

Using the small automatic drill MEU-100-A with no crew onboard gives an actual production rate of 0.033969/s while at 100% therm eff, and it says 5.3% load? 

Looking at the formulas on the wiki I can't figure out how to calculate that in advance.  Any help would be appreciated. 

EDIT: Also, the page on efficiency says...  Efficiency parts will only boost parts with the same category as their efficiency module/s.  I dont see anything in-game or on the wiki that says what parts are in what category?

Edited January 5, 2021 by eberkain

[Julien249]

So, I've been playing a bit with MKS but also with, drum roll please, Interstellar Extended. Yeah, so, I've discovered that both of these are perfectly fine working together in almost everything except reactors... the main thing powering my bases. I've tracked down the problem, I'm fairly certain what needs to be done to fix it, I just can't do the fix myself.

Basically, the reactors have decided they want to use UF4 as their fuel (as opposed to enriched uranium) most likely due to an override by IE. However, IE has conveniently decided NOT to override the actual refueling mechanism, which means I can't refuel my reactors (I'll explain why mks can't refuel them either in a sec). So, you'll tell me, just disable the IE override, and to that I say, I'd love to. However, this reduced the output of the reactors to the point that every single base I've made can no longer power itself. So I'm stuck in a dead end.

The solution was to incorporate UF4 transfer into the mks fieldrepair system myself. I thought I'd succeeded until I looked into the actual code for the field repair module (on the github). It turns out that nothing I do will allow this to work because the cs file for the module doesn't actually include UF4 and I don't know how to edit the cs file from my install (if that is even possible).

So here is the question: Is there ANYTHING I can do to allow field repair to also refill UF4 on my side? Thanks for the help, this is bringing me to my wits' end.

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Julien249 said:

So, I've been playing a bit with MKS but also with, drum roll please, Interstellar Extended. Yeah, so, I've discovered that both of these are perfectly fine working together in almost everything except reactors... the main thing powering my bases. I've tracked down the problem, I'm fairly certain what needs to be done to fix it, I just can't do the fix myself.

Basically, the reactors have decided they want to use UF4 as their fuel (as opposed to enriched uranium) most likely due to an override by IE. However, IE has conveniently decided NOT to override the actual refueling mechanism, which means I can't refuel my reactors (I'll explain why mks can't refuel them either in a sec). So, you'll tell me, just disable the IE override, and to that I say, I'd love to. However, this reduced the output of the reactors to the point that every single base I've made can no longer power itself. So I'm stuck in a dead end.

The solution was to incorporate UF4 transfer into the mks fieldrepair system myself. I thought I'd succeeded until I looked into the actual code for the field repair module (on the github). It turns out that nothing I do will allow this to work because the cs file for the module doesn't actually include UF4 and I don't know how to edit the cs file from my install (if that is even possible).

So here is the question: Is there ANYTHING I can do to allow field repair to also refill UF4 on my side? Thanks for the help, this is bringing me to my wits' end.

Tell the KSPI-E team not to override my reactors

[Julien249]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

Tell the KSPI-E team not to override my reactors

You know, I am sure they are very nice people, but maybe they could make it a tad clearer that it does before you download it...

[TBenz]

2 hours ago, Julien249 said:

So, I've been playing a bit with MKS but also with, drum roll please, Interstellar Extended. Yeah, so, I've discovered that both of these are perfectly fine working together in almost everything except reactors... the main thing powering my bases. I've tracked down the problem, I'm fairly certain what needs to be done to fix it, I just can't do the fix myself.

Basically, the reactors have decided they want to use UF4 as their fuel (as opposed to enriched uranium) most likely due to an override by IE. However, IE has conveniently decided NOT to override the actual refueling mechanism, which means I can't refuel my reactors (I'll explain why mks can't refuel them either in a sec). So, you'll tell me, just disable the IE override, and to that I say, I'd love to. However, this reduced the output of the reactors to the point that every single base I've made can no longer power itself. So I'm stuck in a dead end.

The solution was to incorporate UF4 transfer into the mks fieldrepair system myself. I thought I'd succeeded until I looked into the actual code for the field repair module (on the github). It turns out that nothing I do will allow this to work because the cs file for the module doesn't actually include UF4 and I don't know how to edit the cs file from my install (if that is even possible).

So here is the question: Is there ANYTHING I can do to allow field repair to also refill UF4 on my side? Thanks for the help, this is bringing me to my wits' end.

Why not just disable the KSPI-E override and create your own patch to give the reactors comparable output to what they had with KSPI-E? It'd be a heck of a lot easier to do than what you are messing with. A MM patch to increase the OUTPUT_RESOURCE Ratio key would be dead simple to do. 

[Julien249]

How do you make a mm patch? Cause that sounds like an amazing idea.

[goldenpsp]

27 minutes ago, Julien249 said:

How do you make a mm patch? Cause that sounds like an amazing idea.

 

Great howto information in the thread.  You can also start looking at the existing configs to get an idea.  It's really not too hard and awesome to learn.  once you do you can tweak lots of stuff easily to your liking.

[Julien249]

8 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

 

Great howto information in the thread.  You can also start looking at the existing configs to get an idea.  It's really not too hard and awesome to learn.  once you do you can tweak lots of stuff easily to your liking.

Thank you so much! This has been very very helpful!

[eberkain]

Anyone ever had trouble grabbing Kontainers with Klaws?  I have no problems grabbing other things, but these are really jank, sometimes it works, but mostly it doesn't.  The Kontainers physics just jut shutoff after a failed grab and if you bump it it just floats off forever.  

 

 

log files

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lfhnF84bjW765JL-68Hsrz5rqyrPoDJs/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wvegkqt3BVsyVQZVhhqvPf9oQn7SmrgV/view?usp=sharing