mikegarrison Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, tater said: But again, it was also---compared to Mars---a trivial expedition. The only places that compare (and even then, orders of magnitude easier) would be parts of Earth where no humans have ever lived before modern times (Antarctica springs to mind). Sail a boat (or canoe) across an ocean, land in the middle of nowhere---hard to survive for US, but that random spot? Already inhabited by effectively naked stone age tech people in much of the world, or people wearing furs (with little other tech, and maybe no metallurgy at all) if the spot is in the arctic. I just don't think other human migrations are even analogous. Maybe the huge cities we have now at the bottom of the oceans are a better examp... oh, wait, we haven't done that yet, either . I think you underestimate the level of "unknownness" involved in the Lewis and Clark expedition. It's trivial compared to going to Mars - now. Not then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 51 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: I think you underestimate the level of "unknownness" involved in the Lewis and Clark expedition. It's trivial compared to going to Mars - now. Not then. There were literally stone age humans living everywhere they went. Ie: it was possible to survive everywhere they went virtually naked. That trip for a Native American? Just another day at the office (the only risk would have been from other humans). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xd the great Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Raven Industries said: So the first colonists sent to Mars will be facing some sort of combination of the Oregon Trail on steroids, Amundsen's South Pole expedition, and an extended tour of duty in a submarine. Mmmmmm. Send the kerbals! 45 minutes ago, tater said: There were literally stone age humans living everywhere they went. Ie: it was possible to survive everywhere they went virtually naked. They didn't live on Mars though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Xd the great said: They didn't live on Mars though. R U sure? Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wjolcz Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, magnemoe said: Liquid propane can be stored at room temperature in an strong steel or composite tank. Butane is even lower so its used in lighters and the thin walled tanks common in camping stoves. note that butane is an liquid at cold temperature, that is an downside of the cheap camping stoves and why lighters don't work if cold. Methane is cryogenic, you can not hold it in an pressure container, yes some places its used for heating but then its piped. I have no idea why I thought it was methane lol. I guess it just shows that I never needed to buy it. Edit: I just wrote a long post, realoaded the page and it was gone. Here we go again. Long story short: I think the first people will be scientists and engineers chosen by NASA/ESA/CNSA, etc. and they will maintain small bases without any intention to expand much. Then, someone rich will decide he/she wants to create a tax heaven Monaco-like place where other wealthy people will go to to enjoy whatever is not allowed on Earth (gambling?). There might be some who decide they want to create a sort of technological utopia free from senate middlemen (Elon himself believes it will be a direct democracy). I can sort of imagine that since an off-world colony can be hard and expensive to control, so no country would want to spend money on that unless just for the sake of it. Especially since there aren't too many resources to exploit from there. Anyway, what I'm counting on for now is that world space agencies will be interested in Mars enough to buy the rides from SpaceX, simply because there are questions to be answered and technologies to be developed on that planet that will change lives of anyone who lives on this one. Edited January 17, 2020 by Wjolcz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSK Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Ahh, the Futurama model. ”I’m gonna build my own Mars base. With blackjack and...” Yeah, you know the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuyWithALongUsername Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, KSK said: Ahh, the Futurama model. ”I’m gonna build my own Mars base. With blackjack and...” Yeah, you know the rest. "In fact, forget the Mars base!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wjolcz Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) Is the trunk actual trunk or did they decide it will be purely structural without solar panels? Hmm... Looks like the real deal. Edited January 17, 2020 by Wjolcz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubinator Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Loading in Space Buster, I presume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenperforce Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Wjolcz said: Is the trunk actual trunk or did they decide it will be purely structural without solar panels? Hmm... Looks like the real deal. Yeah they already built it for the first CC flight so..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Spoiler I worry every time about those two caps on the trunk side, which protect the solar panels on its side. They just loose it! They even don't try to return it or something, like the shroud halves. As the solar panels are not reusable, why do they not make their glass a little bit thicker, to make the solar panels a part of the trunk themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvP Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, mikegarrison said: Maybe it's more like Lewis and Clark. The people that went with Lewis and Clark didn't take out loans to buy their way onto the expedition; they were paid to go! And while they were out there they didn't expect to buy supplies and pay rent on their tents -- this was all communal. It wasn't a capitalist economic paradigm at all. I think I can chime in a bit here considering that I'm currently reading the journals of Lewis & Clark right now, coincidentally. Although the Lewis & Clark expedition did include hired hands, many of them had arranged to leave and go back to St. Louis part way through. And all of them were fully aware that this was not just exploration for the sake of it, but also an economic expedition for the purpose of opening up (and monopolizing) commerce with the natives, the French fur traders, and the ports on the west coast. One of the most important goals along the way was to make contact with Sacajawea's tribe and barter for horses from them so that they could continue over land when the river courses were no longer navigable. They brought trade goods along with them for this very purpose. 13 hours ago, mikegarrison said: I think you underestimate the level of "unknownness" involved in the Lewis and Clark expedition. It's trivial compared to going to Mars - now. Not then. It was only "unknown" to the population of white settlers from the United States. The expedition fully intended to make use of the knowledge of the native tribes they met along the way for hunting advice, seasonal recommendations for travel, and directions through the waterways and mountain passes. Lewis and Clark also found out that the waterway of the Colorado down from the Rocky Mountains would be too rapid and dangerous for boat travel - which they predicted, but was confirmed by the Shoshone tribe. They knew they would be entirely unable to complete the journey westward without aid from the Shoshones in the form of horses and manpower. 12 hours ago, tater said: There were literally stone age humans living everywhere they went. Ie: it was possible to survive everywhere they went virtually naked. That trip for a Native American? Just another day at the office (the only risk would have been from other humans). I think it's clear Mars is entirely inhospitable in relation to just about any part of the Earth. That's not to say that the life in the wilderness of 1804 Montana was a cake walk. Many of the tribes were barely subsisting, especially those in the mountains that didn't have access to the buffalo. But even that was a result of being pushed out of their territory by other tribes. So yea, there's really no comparison between going on a one-way trip to Mars, and exploring the North American frontier. On one hand you are completely at the mercy of instant death in an airless void, and totally alone, having absolutely no support in dire circumstances; and on the other hand, literally going where many thousands have gone before through a green, bounteous, haven of life. Edited January 17, 2020 by HvP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, HvP said: I think it's clear Mars is entirely inhospitable in relation to just about any part of the Earth. That's not to say that the life in the wilderness of 1804 Montana was a cake walk. Many of the tribes were barely subsisting, especially those in the mountains that didn't have access to the buffalo. But even that was a result of being pushed out of their territory by other tribes. My real point is to underline that terrestrial exploration/colonization doesn't map well to anywhere off the Earth very well, with the only analogs that spring to mind being the colonization of Antarctica (which hasn't happened), and the bottom of the ocean (which also hasn't happened). Even both of those are easier by far than Mars, however. The obsession with Mars as a place to live I just don't get (and I'm a desert person, I think it's pretty on Mars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubinator Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, tater said: The obsession with Mars as a place to live I just don't get (and I'm a desert person, I think it's pretty on Mars). For me, Mars is important not just on its own as a destination but as a gateway to the rest of the solar system. If we can develop two-way transport between Earth and Mars, we'll be able to go anyplace in the solar system and stay there. And once we do that we'll be well on our way to building interstellar ships. That's why colonization of Mars is a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, cubinator said: For me, Mars is important not just on its own as a destination but as a gateway to the rest of the solar system. If we can develop two-way transport between Earth and Mars, we'll be able to go anyplace in the solar system and stay there. And once we do that we'll be well on our way to building interstellar ships. That's why colonization of Mars is a big deal. I'm not sure we'll ever build interstellar ships (seems unlikely with crew). The ability to use the solar system is another matter. I get that, and support it, but I would need to see a case for the economics of it that isn't fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 For tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) Also, looks they are aiming towards the end of the window rather than the beginning: Starlink launch moved to Tuesday. Edited January 18, 2020 by tater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, tater said: Also, looks they are aiming towards the end of the window rather than the beginning: Woohoo! I can actually sleep in on a Saturday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I've been waiting for this test for a while , who wants to place bets if the booster somehow partially survives and lands itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said: I've been waiting for this test for a while , who wants to place bets if the booster somehow partially survives and lands itself? FWIW, Blue Origin very carefully tried to downplay expectations and said they expected the New Shepard booster to be destroyed when they did their in-flight abort, but it landed without difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geonovast Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: FWIW, Blue Origin very carefully tried to downplay expectations and said they expected the New Shepard booster to be destroyed when they did their in-flight abort, but it landed without difficulty. Yeah, but it didn't have a second stage stuck to it, still had its landing equipment, and had somewhere to actually land.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: FWIW, Blue Origin very carefully tried to downplay expectations and said they expected the New Shepard booster to be destroyed when they did their in-flight abort, but it landed without difficulty. Their booster was under much less stress, tho... I think it was even subsonic. IIRC the abort will trigger around Mach 1.8, that’s a lot of air pressure/shockwave hitting a suddenly blunt surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 This stage is not landing. One, S2 is tanked up (mass sim in place of Vac Merlin). Two, no grid fins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 what if S2 takes the brunt of the shock and blows apart freeing the weight from the top and then the booster proceeds to perform a soft splashdown using only thrust vectoring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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