totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[Rutabaga22]

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 minutes ago, Rutabaga22 said:

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

Should it become possible; you'd still need a RocketPort.  Otherwise you're throwing it away.

While I don't know the actual answer, the old saw from the bad old days - you've got at most 1/2 hour from detection of launch until... let's say "landing"?

2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

grid fins are much closer to the center of mass on the way up so their moment effect on the ascent is negligible.

Thanks - this makes sense.

[tater]

 

[darthgently]

38 minutes ago, Rutabaga22 said:

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

As exciting as the idea may seem I just don't see it.  At least not under the current regulatory scene.  Anyone in that big of a hurry won't have the time to wait for a weather window and deal with scrubs.  Maybe as a bezos-ish rocket ride that can be written off as a biz expense for biz travelers? Lol

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, Rutabaga22 said:

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

It economically ludicrous and it should be slightly embarrassing that it was ever pitched, compared to the very promising and plausible applications of the starship system. 

[mikegarrison]

5 hours ago, Rutabaga22 said:

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

It's not viable, for lots and lots of reasons.

Just for example: on a commercial airplane you have to demonstrate (with a real evacuation using real people) that you can evacuate the entire airplane in 90 seconds -- in the dark, with half the exits blocked off (and they won't tell you which half until the 90 seconds starts). I've never seen anyone from SpaceX ever address anything like this.

Edited September 28, 2022 by mikegarrison

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

3 hours ago, Rutabaga22 said:

THis has probably been asked a million times, but how viable is point to point with starship? How much faster would it be compared to aircraft?

There is a lengthy several-page discussion about this up thread.  May take you a bit of searching to find it... But the responders went into depth on the pros and cons of using Starship as anything other than a star ship 

[CatastrophicFailure]

Elon gonna Elon.

But Shotwell is says it will work, and I’ll take her word until I have concrete reason not to. 

[RyanRising]

5 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Elon gonna Elon.

But Shotwell is says it will work, and I’ll take her word until I have concrete reason not to. 

I think Shotwell saying point-to-point will work is good reason not to take her word as a good indication of truth or realistic predictions.

[tater]

30 minutes ago, RyanRising said:

I think Shotwell saying point-to-point will work is good reason not to take her word as a good indication of truth or realistic predictions.

If Starship is actually reusable and crew safe, P2P is plausible.

I think the issue is regulatory and liability based, not technical.

(Ie: I think it's incredibly unlikely)

[RCgothic]

This feels really impressive:

 

 

[Ultimate Steve]

2 hours ago, RCgothic said:

This feels really impressive:

 

 

Just like we do in Kerbal!

[sevenperforce]

3 hours ago, RCgothic said:

This feels really impressive:

 

 

Yes, that's genuinely very impressive.

[darthgently]

10 hours ago, tater said:

If Starship is actually reusable and crew safe, P2P is plausible.

I think the issue is regulatory and liability based, not technical.

(Ie: I think it's incredibly unlikely)

I just don't see a market for it, even if technically plausible. Those in a big hurry, but willing to factor in weather delays and scrubs, don't really exist.

The only customer I see is the military for fast boots on ground globally. And the military has expressed interest, so who knows.  Presumably the military would have different risk analysis wrt weather windows and urgency

Edited September 29, 2022 by darthgently

[tater]

10 minutes ago, darthgently said:

I just don't see a market for it, even if technically plausible. Those in a big hurry, but willing to factor in weather delays and scrubs, don't really exist.

A quick check shows flights from LAX to Sydney run between 14 and 23 hours (with stops or nonstop).

The flight with Starship would be what, under 30 minutes? That's a lot of flight opportunities during the 14+ hour flight the old-fashioned way. Such a system would be hub-based (again, I find the idea incredibly unlikely, I'm just steel-manning the concept). Get people to a distant hub, then they can take a plane, or possibly another rocket I suppose (to aggregate travelers).  Dubai likely has ~0 weather scrubs. Most cities would have more weather issues, obviously, but if you wait a few hours to leave, then fly to the opposite side of the world in 30 min, it's still a short trip. I, for one, can't stand long flights.

[sevenperforce]

24 minutes ago, tater said:

49 minutes ago, darthgently said:

I just don't see a market for it, even if technically plausible. Those in a big hurry, but willing to factor in weather delays and scrubs, don't really exist.

A quick check shows flights from LAX to Sydney run between 14 and 23 hours (with stops or nonstop).

The flight with Starship would be what, under 30 minutes? That's a lot of flight opportunities during the 14+ hour flight the old-fashioned way. Such a system would be hub-based (again, I find the idea incredibly unlikely, I'm just steel-manning the concept). Get people to a distant hub, then they can take a plane, or possibly another rocket I suppose (to aggregate travelers).  Dubai likely has ~0 weather scrubs. Most cities would have more weather issues, obviously, but if you wait a few hours to leave, then fly to the opposite side of the world in 30 min, it's still a short trip. I, for one, can't stand long flights.

I agree that the market for it is extremely speculative. But we'll see. They're building Starship anyway for orbital purposes, so if the market exists, there's no barrier to access, just to execution.

[tater]

This is interesting...

Polaris mission to Hubble, perhaps?

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-media-to-discuss-new-science-commercial-study-today

 

[Beccab]

6 minutes ago, tater said:

This is interesting...

Polaris mission to Hubble, perhaps?

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-media-to-discuss-new-science-commercial-study-today

 

Very interesting indeed

11 minutes ago, tater said:

This is interesting...

Polaris mission to Hubble, perhaps?

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-media-to-discuss-new-science-commercial-study-today

 

Eric says that this is a big announcement

 

[darthgently]

19 minutes ago, Beccab said:

Very interesting indeed

Eric says that this is a big announcement

 

Semi related: I can't access the Twitter images posted on this site. Do they require the Twitter app on a phone?  Because I refuse do that.  Strangely I have no issues with Twitter links in general elsewhere

[Beccab]

1 minute ago, darthgently said:

Semi related: I can't access the Twitter images posted on this site. Do they require the Twitter app on a phone?  Because I refuse do that.  Strangely I have no issues with Twitter links in general elsewhere

Not sure, it works for me. The KSP forum has started working odd on mobile a lot of times already though, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets fixed at some point

[magnemoe]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:31 AM, Pthigrivi said:

It economically ludicrous and it should be slightly embarrassing that it was ever pitched, compared to the very promising and plausible applications of the starship system. 

Yes, as I see it, it share a lot of the weaknesses with concord and increase them, in addition to that it can not use standard airports. 
An fail with concord was that it could just travel to a few airports, they had to be pretty close to the ocean because you could only go supersonic there, but it also was only practical between airports hubs with lots of traffic so it got enough passengers who would pay the significant premium for flying fast.

You might have noticed the A-380 production has stopped and they will stop production of the 474. 
The reason is that its better to fly directly from say Berlin to Miami than Berlin to London then to New York then to Miami. Even with concord you would not save time over flying directly.

Well starship has the extra problem that you need transport  to the offshore launchpad and from it, then probably an flight. 
And it has more seats to fill than an A 380. 
 

[tater]

29 minutes ago, darthgently said:

Semi related: I can't access the Twitter images posted on this site. Do they require the Twitter app on a phone?  Because I refuse do that.  Strangely I have no issues with Twitter links in general elsewhere

I don't have the twitter app on my phone at all, and I see them.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, tater said:

This is interesting...

Polaris mission to Hubble, perhaps?

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-media-to-discuss-new-science-commercial-study-today

 

Sound a bit like it, had it just been SpaceX launching an orbit raising satellite the satellite developers been in focus. 
However this sounds a bit weird, the astronaut would be free floating once out of dragon and has to eva over to hubble and hold on to it while doing his tasks. 
Its an lack of external things to grab on to on it as far as I know. 

Now one of my pet ideas is an Starship with space shuttle functionality but beefed up. So an larger unpressurized cargo hold, smaller crew cabin as duration will be shorter and no need for an large crew, 12 would be maximum and it let you rotate the eva crew. 
Multiple arms, one beefy to grab the target and say 2 others to hold astronauts or part like an new solar panel. 

Purpose is orbital repair / upgrades, satellite recovery and orbital assembly. No not the first thing they build but think it could be handy down the line. 

[tater]

5 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

However this sounds a bit weird, the astronaut would be free floating once out of dragon and has to eva over to hubble and hold on to it while doing his tasks. 

Arm in trunk?

Edited September 29, 2022 by tater

[Ultimate Steve]

Recover Hubble via Starship with Dragon EVA support?