Blue Origin thread.

[tater]

The current vertical integration requirements are for USAF/NRO payloads, I think.

[Mighty1]

SpaceX launches NRO payloads and they are also horizontal.

[tater]

It's my understanding that some of the DoD payloads for EELV have a vertical integration requirement.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, tater said:

It's my understanding that some of the DoD payloads for EELV have a vertical integration requirement.

As I understand spacex plan to do this at pad, my guess is that they use the manned launch tower for access to top of rocket for connecting it then either an mobile crane or crane on tower to lift the fairing with payload in place. 

[tater]

 

[tater]

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

I’d like to think the latest round of crap I bought on Amazon is what finally pushed him over the top.  

[tater]

 

[tater]

 

Wonder if they are flying a science experiment soon... they have 26 days.

[CatastrophicFailure]

What’s in 26 Days?

[Guest]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:55 AM, tater said:

 

From that press release:

"New Glenn is a two- or three-stage-to-orbit heavy lift launch vehicle capable of delivering 44,906 kg (99,000 lbs) to LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and 13,154 kg (29,000 lbs) to GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit)."

So, wait... It puts more into LEO but less at GTO than Delta-IV Heavy? How's that work out?

[cubinator]

1 minute ago, regex said:

So, wait... It puts more into LEO but less at GTO than Delta-IV Heavy? How's that work out?

Maybe they could send more to GTO if they were not saving fuel to recover the first stage.

[IncongruousGoat]

Just now, regex said:

From that press release:

"New Glenn is a two- or three-stage-to-orbit heavy lift launch vehicle capable of delivering 44,906 kg (99,000 lbs) to LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and 13,154 kg (29,000 lbs) to GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit)."

So, wait... It puts more into LEO but less at GTO than Delta-IV Heavy? How's that work out?

Delta-IV Heavy has a high-energy hydrolox upper stage. New Glenn most definitely does not. In this case, it seems that's enough of an advantage in LEO dV terms to make Delta-IV Heavy the winner in the payload-to-GTO category.

[magnemoe]

Just now, regex said:

From that press release:

"New Glenn is a two- or three-stage-to-orbit heavy lift launch vehicle capable of delivering 44,906 kg (99,000 lbs) to LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and 13,154 kg (29,000 lbs) to GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit)."

So, wait... It puts more into LEO but less at GTO than Delta-IV Heavy? How's that work out?

For falcon 9 its simple as its an two stage rocket using RP1 as fuel, ISP is lower than hydrogen and the second stage is heavy compared to an smaller 3rd stage who is even protected by fairing during launch

Now I thought new Glenn with 3 stages also used an hydrolox stage even if not inside fairing it should help. 

[tater]

11 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

What’s in 26 Days?

They said they'd fly this year again. (New Shepard).

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Delta-IV Heavy has a high-energy hydrolox upper stage. New Glenn most definitely does not. In this case, it seems that's enough of an advantage in LEO dV terms to make Delta-IV Heavy the winner in the payload-to-GTO category.

I had a feeling that would be the difference. So New Glenn really doesn't offer much new (HAHA!) aside from reusability.

[CatastrophicFailure]

2 hours ago, regex said:

I had a feeling that would be the difference. So New Glenn really doesn't offer much new (HAHA!) aside from reusability.

...and a really big fairing...  which is somewhat noteworthy. 

[Bill Phil]

3 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Delta-IV Heavy has a high-energy hydrolox upper stage. New Glenn most definitely does not. In this case, it seems that's enough of an advantage in LEO dV terms to make Delta-IV Heavy the winner in the payload-to-GTO category.

It's also in possession of a high energy core and two high energy boosters... The DIV core uses hydrolox. It's got about 365 seconds of isp at sea level, but more in vacuum, over 400.

[Brotoro]

5 hours ago, regex said:

From that press release:

"New Glenn is a two- or three-stage-to-orbit heavy lift launch vehicle capable of delivering 44,906 kg (99,000 lbs) to LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and 13,154 kg (29,000 lbs) to GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit)."

So, wait... It puts more into LEO but less at GTO than Delta-IV Heavy? How's that work out?

Unicorn magic!

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Brotoro said:

Unicorn magic!

That's what will happen when Falcon Heavy flies.

[IncongruousGoat]

12 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

It's also in possession of a high energy core and two high energy boosters... The DIV core uses hydrolox. It's got about 365 seconds of isp at sea level, but more in vacuum, over 400.

Those aren't high-energy, though. The idea with a high-energy upper stage is really light tanks, low TWR, and a really high specific impulse, none of which are possible in atmosphere. Plus, it's debatable how much of an advantage that lends it in terms of payload to GTO specifically, considering that it loses by a mile to New Glenn in payload to LEO.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Plus, it's debatable how much of an advantage that lends it in terms of payload to GTO specifically, considering that it loses by a mile to New Glenn in payload to LEO.

It's about two tons, give or take, according to published statistics for the Delta-IV Heavy and fictional statistics for New Glenn.

[IncongruousGoat]

Just now, regex said:

It's about two tons, give or take, according to published statistics for the Delta-IV Heavy and fictional statistics for New Glenn.

Well, yes. I was talking about how much of that difference is attributable to Delta-IV Heavy using hydrolox boosters and a hydrolox core, as opposed to New Glenn's methalox booster.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Well, yes. I was talking about how much of that difference is attributable to Delta-IV Heavy using hydrolox boosters and a hydrolox core, as opposed to New Glenn's methalox booster.

I'm having a tough time seeing it tbh. Maybe I'll run some math once I drop off my kid.

Edited December 6, 2017 by regex

[Bill Phil]

2 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Those aren't high-energy, though. The idea with a high-energy upper stage is really light tanks, low TWR, and a really high specific impulse, none of which are possible in atmosphere. Plus, it's debatable how much of an advantage that lends it in terms of payload to GTO specifically, considering that it loses by a mile to New Glenn in payload to LEO.

That is high energy with respect to kerolox. High energy refers to the propellant. Any upper stage would be optimum with a large mass ratio and low TWR even if it uss different propellants. 

The RS-68 engine is also very likely to have an optimum expansion ratio at some point in the atmosphere and not in vacuum or at sea level. And the hydrolox core is carried to very high altitude with a decent amount of propellant in its tanks. 

As to why it has less payload to LEO compared to New Glenn? Well, the core doesn't really have a full propellant tank left after the boosters burn out and the upper stage is pretty small, not really optimized for large LEO payloads, but it is optimized for large GEO payloads.