KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

[Nansuchao]

You definitely should try Community Tech Tree mod

@FreeThinker I want to thank you for great job done on this mod. Unfortunately Im not programmer, and can't provide any help.

I assume that Fractals wiki is outdated, so it mostly useless for Interstellar Extended, and I need some more explanation on these beautiful engines: Magnetic Nozzle and Vista

In case of reactors - chart in top post is pretty explanatory, but not for engines(

I cant get, how to power up Magnetic Nozzle correctly, even with antimatter reactor it gives ridiculous thrust (7-9kN) There is something I'm doing wrong, I think =(

And my headache is a lovely Vista. It overheats in atmosphere, that's ok, I can take it, but even 10-15 seconds burn in orbit near Kerbin makes it explode. I tried Heat Management mod which has heatsinks, Heat Control mod and some other stuff. It is all useless!

So please tell me, how to use Vista properly? How to handle that insane overheating? There must be the way to cool it down

I tried the CTT, and I don't like the many empty nodes...

For the Magnetic Nozzles, did you tried them in atmosphere or in orbit? You need to use the Charged Particle Generator for a better thrust. About the Heat Control mod, I think it's actually not compatible with KSPIE, you'll go much better without it.

[Cosmonauth]

Hmm, I have no empty nodes in CTT now with only KSPIE installed, there was alot of changes since 1.0.x comes out, maybe you should check that out.

Magnetic Nozzles not for atmospheric use, that written in ingame tooltip, so i tried them in space obviously)) As I said before, i tried it with antimatter reactor, which produces charged particles as well. Shortly: Magnetic Nozzle gettin all stuff it needed in theory (electricity, charged particles, fuel) - but I cant get it to work as it have to. Maybe it's bugged, but I think there is something I just don't understand.

About heat control mod: Name of mod that I used is actually "Heat Managment" - which has heatsinks that doing pretty good job cooling LV-Ns. Since Vista engine produces not only Waste Heat, it generates alot of stock overheating effect (you can see that if you just examine its configuration file), Heat Management heatsinks deals with Vista overheat effect as well, but LV-N has heatProduction = 432 (according to conf file), and Vista has heatProduction = 10000!!! As you can see, it's over 9k!

I have no problems with Vista when I reduce heatProduction parameter tenfold, it still overheats insanely but I can handle that with Heat Management parts. Maybe FreeThinker should make some balance fixes, coz I don't like to change configs by myself as it affects my gameplay, and Vista itself seems to be useless for now.

[Nansuchao]

Currently Vista overheat near the temperature limit but doesn't explode.

I know that you used A/M reactors for Magnetic Nozzles, my question was if you used the Charged Particle Generator. If you use the other generator Magnetic Nozzles doesn't want to work properly.

[FreeThinker]

Hmm, I have no empty nodes in CTT now with only KSPIE installed, there was alot of changes since 1.0.x comes out, maybe you should check that out.

Indeed, I have fully integrated CTT and it is no longer a requirement (as it used to). Instead, If you don't have CTT installed, it will only add the technodes it uses for KSPI-E. This means you no longer have to suck up with CTT policy of showing all technodes. They did this because some highly unbalanced mods only required the last technodes and forced everyone who installed CTT to view all empty technodes.

Edited June 13, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Version 1.1.20 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2

Released on 2015-06-13

• Fixed Fusion reactor ability to maintain fusion after reload
  
• Proportionally Increased Volume Interstellar Fuel Tanks depending on size of tank
  
• Science Lab is available earlier and acts as improve Mobile Processing Lab with 20% higher Science Multiplier . It's advanced abilities are still unlocked with Scientific Outposts
  
• Significantly increased Reaction Wheel Computer Core, It;s ability to generate science is unlocked with Long Term Science
  

- - - Updated - - -

So please tell me, how to use Vista properly? How to handle that insane overheating? There must be the way to cool it down

Seems you already found the the Vista Achilles Heel, Heat, it's the direct result of having an effective exposure of 4% to 250 GW of the energy released by the Fusion Reaction. Now The Vista in KSPI, is actually an miniaturized version of the full size version which is 250 Meter Wide!! In this design, the surface area of the engines was enough to get rid of a the wasteheat. However, this is not the case for the smaller version, and you need to get rid of the Waste-heat somehow. That's why in order to use the Vista indefinitely, you need enough waste-heat reduction capacity. 4 upgraded Large Flat radiator, should do the trick, but you need the technology to do this.

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Currently Vista overheat near the temperature limit but doesn't explode.

I know that you used A/M reactors for Magnetic Nozzles, my question was if you used the Charged Particle Generator. If you use the other generator Magnetic Nozzles doesn't want to work properly.

Correct, the Direct Energy Conversion will consume all charged particles before the magnetic nozzle has a chance to use it for propulsion. Instead of direct conversion, you should use a thermal generator on a reactor which you want to link with Magnetic nozzle.

If configured correctly, the magnetic nozzle is the most efficient propulsion method in KSPI. The reason is that it produces a wide range of High Isp with minimum Waste-heat production, which means you don't need to have a lot radiators. This is opposite of the vista, which require the most amount of radiators, which adds significant amount of mass to your vessel.

Edited June 13, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Morberis]

What's recommended for using this with the Near Future mods, can you just throw them all together, is there a MM balance patch, or is it recommended not to use with Near Future Electrical/Propulsion?

Extra points for use with Cryogenic engines.

[Thorbane]

Why are the interstellar fuel tanks ignoring the mass scale exponents in the tweakscale config file?

Also the config files in the InterstellarFuelSwitch file are blank.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Thorbane

[Cosmonauth]

Seems you already found the the Vista Achilles Heel, Heat, it's the direct result of having an effective exposure of 4% to 250 GW of the energy released by the Fusion Reaction. Now The Vista in KSPI, is actually an miniaturized version of the full size version which is 250 Meter Wide!! In this design, the surface area of the engines was enough to get rid of a the wasteheat. However, this is not the case for the smaller version, and you need to get rid of the Waste-heat somehow. That's why in order to use the Vista indefinitely, you need enough waste-heat reduction capacity. 4 upgraded Large Flat radiator, should do the trick, but you need the technology to do this.

It should, but it's not. Waste-heat is not the problem. Problem is:

 MODULE
    {
    name = ModuleEngines
    thrustVectorTransformName = T_T
    exhaustDamage = True
    ignitionThreshold = 0.1
    minThrust = 0
    maxThrust = 1200
    [U]heatProduction = 10000[/U]
    fxOffset = 0, 0, 0

This parameter does nothing to waste heat, and KSPIE radiators is useless in this case, doesn't matter how big they are. This is stock heating effect.

[andqui]

The first post mentions that there is RealFuels integration- but CKAN doesn't allow you to install both this and RealFuels, as the "Interstellar Fuel Switch" dependency conflicts with RealFuels. How should I get around this?

[raxo2222]

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I did test of magnetic nozzle for smallest and largest rocket. All parts from smallest rocket were upscaled to 5m size rocket except USI SAS, that has 2400 kN*m torque.

Small rocket (1.25m parts):

DV at 1/3 full thrust:

111km/s 11.2km/s

TWR:

1.25 3.91

Large rocket (5m parts):

DV at 1/3 full thrust:

154km/s 14.6km/s

TWR:

1.56 5.02

So big rocket variant is more efficient than smaller one.

[FreeThinker]

It should, but it's not. Waste-heat is not the problem. Problem is:

 MODULE
    {
    name = ModuleEngines
    thrustVectorTransformName = T_T
    exhaustDamage = True
    ignitionThreshold = 0.1
    minThrust = 0
    maxThrust = 1200
    [U]heatProduction = 10000[/U]
    fxOffset = 0, 0, 0

This parameter does nothing to waste heat, and KSPIE radiators is useless in this case, doesn't matter how big they are. This is stock heating effect.

That not a mistake, I put it there. You can alter it but it wouldn't matter because internally it is overriden depending by the energy produced by vista itself. What is missing is the EmissiveConstant. A black body upper limit of 1, however that would make the Vista overheat in a matter of seconds. Instead, it has a very high Emissive constant tied to the performance of the radiators. This means the cooler the radiators, the higher emisive constant. Now in order to prevent explosion, the Wasteheat system must be able to process 10000 MW and remain cool enough to cool the Vista with a high emisiveConstant (about 40).

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What's recommended for using this with the Near Future mods, can you just throw them all together, is there a MM balance patch, or is it recommended not to use with Near Future Electrical/Propulsion?

Extra points for use with Cryogenic engines.

KSPI-E was specifically developed to allow integration with Near Future. Depending on the installed mods, it either lowers the power level of KSPI or Increases power requirements of Near Future Engines to megaWatts.

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Why are the interstellar fuel tanks ignoring the mass scale exponents in the tweakscale config file?

Tweakscale scale component were giving difficulties when scaling, instead IFS has fully integrated with Tweakscale as it responds to tweakscale resize events. You can control the scale component with 2 new properties in the IFS module (massExponent and volumeExponent )

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http://imgur.com/a/1Z7IK

I did test of magnetic nozzle for smallest and largest rocket. All parts from smallest rocket were upscaled to 5m size rocket except USI SAS, that has 2400 kN*m torque.

Small rocket (1.25m parts):

DV at 1/3 full thrust:

111km/s 11.2km/s

TWR:

1.25 3.91

Large rocket (5m parts):

DV at 1/3 full thrust:

154km/s 14.6km/s

TWR:

1.56 5.02

So big rocket variant is more efficient than smaller one.

This is a general rule, the bigger the reactor, the more energy dense it becomes, and therefore the higher TWR it provides (with flat radiators).

Note that you are not forced to connect magnetic nozzle directly to a reactor, you can also use multiple smaller magnetic nozzles connected radially. Do note that the diameter surface of the magnetic nozzles must correspond with the diameter surface of the reactor. This mean for maximum efficiency, in order to link a 5M reactor, you can use 4 2.5 magnetic nozzles which combined have the same diameter surface as the 5m reactor (4 * 2.5m * 2.5m = 5m * 5m)

- - - Updated - - -

Example how magnetic nozzles can be connected radially to allow construction of a SSTO. This SSTO is also equipped with TurboJet's allowing it launch directly to another planets without any propellant

Edited June 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Also the config files in the InterstellarFuelSwitch file are blank.

Correct, it currently empty, but I plan to use it in the future

Edited June 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

[*Aqua*]

As suggested here I'm trying to change the microwave transmitter into a sun shield. I'm writing a config based for Heat Control.

For that to work I need to know the surface area or size (for calculating the surface area) of one of the hexagon panels.

This is what I came up so far:

PART
{
	name = phasedArray1
	module = Part
	author = Fractal

	MODEL
	{
		model = WarpPlugin/Parts/Utility/phasedArray1/receiver
	}


	scale = 1
	rescaleFactor = 1

	node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.04, 0.0, 0.0, -1.0, 0.0, 0
	node_attach = 0.0, 0.0, -0.04, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0

	TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion
	entryCost = 144000
	cost = 32000
	category = Utility
	subcategory = 0
	title = Deployable Sunshade
	manufacturer = Ionic Protonic Electronics
	description = This once was a microwave transceiver. After Jeb used it as a sunshade at a beach party Scientists believe it may work in space too. Warranty void if used for barbecue. 
	attachRules = 1,1,0,0,0

	// --- standard part parameters ---
	mass = 0.025
	dragModelType = default
	maximum_drag = 0.2
	minimum_drag = 0.2
	angularDrag = 2
	crashTolerance = 7

	maxTemp = 2500
	thermalMassModifier = 1.0
	emissiveConstant = 1.0
	heatConductivity = 0.0001

	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleGenericRadiator

		animationName = deploy
		sunTracking = false

		Emissive = 0.4
		EmissiveExtended = 1.0
		Area = // of one hexagon
		AreaExtended = // hexagon x19
		Radiation = // of one hexagon or less
		RadiationExtended = // hexagon x19
	}
}

Going near the sun is now a dangerous task. Altitudes below 800,000 km will lead to parts overheating and exploding. With KarbonitePlus the player needs to go down to 2 km (!) to collect Karborundum which is impossible at the moment.

[Dante Montana]

...........

Going near the sun is now a dangerous task. Altitudes below 800,000 km will lead to parts overheating and exploding. With KarbonitePlus the player needs to go down to 2 km (!) to collect Karborundum which is impossible at the moment.

Until now I also didn´t find a good way to build a solar satellite with microwave transmitting. To get enough power out of the solar panels, 2000km was a good orbit around the sun before KSP1.02.

[yafeshan]

I was trying test ships with interstellar engines. I wanted a decent dv ship. I started with thermal, it has a obvious overheating problem when i start using any fuel other than atm.

Then i used magnetic nozzle, no overheating but very small thrust. I did not understand how it supposed to have high isp too. I used dusty plasma and fusion rector variations. could not find an efficient configuration. Finaly, i got vista. I am aware of its need for more radiator but something seems very unhealty here.

http://imgur.com/a/2D2nk

Here i have 170GW heat dissipation in a 18GW ship. Reactor is fusion with heat conversion electric generator. When i started vista it started overheating in seconds. It could not reach max but the reason is not radiators colling down, it is vista overheating connected parts and making them explode very fast.

Conclusion

Either my game have some local bug or there is something wrong with engine cooling.

[Khalkion]

We can't use more than one generator per reactor, right? So one part of energy from mixed charged/thermal reactors is always lost. Actually, when I try to use both generators (one from up and one from down), they provide even less energy than single one. Somehow they compete for power from reactor lowering each others output.

[Profit-]

I was trying test ships with interstellar engines. I wanted a decent dv ship. I started with thermal, it has a obvious overheating problem when i start using any fuel other than atm.

Then i used magnetic nozzle, no overheating but very small thrust. I did not understand how it supposed to have high isp too. I used dusty plasma and fusion rector variations. could not find an efficient configuration. Finaly, i got vista. I am aware of its need for more radiator but something seems very unhealty here.

http://imgur.com/a/2D2nk

Here i have 170GW heat dissipation in a 18GW ship. Reactor is fusion with heat conversion electric generator. When i started vista it started overheating in seconds. It could not reach max but the reason is not radiators colling down, it is vista overheating connected parts and making them explode very fast.

Conclusion

Either my game have some local bug or there is something wrong with engine cooling.

The vista is being worked on, perhaps this is a bug from that editing.

I would recommend trying out the plasma engines or the arcjets. Either one are good enough to go almost anywhere and back in the system. 2x so if you have microwave power plants and are beaming it to them.

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We can't use more than one generator per reactor, right? So one part of energy from mixed charged/thermal reactors is always lost. Actually, when I try to use both generators (one from up and one from down), they provide even less energy than single one. Somehow they compete for power from reactor lowering each others output.

This is a bug with the thermal side using the charged particles as heat. I agree it is odd. Perhaps there should be a dont use charged particles option on the thermal generator.

This however means if you need heat ANYWHERE in your spacecraft, you can just use charged particles instead since they are a global resource.

[andqui]

The first post mentions that there is RealFuels integration- but CKAN doesn't allow you to install both this and RealFuels, as the "Interstellar Fuel Switch" dependency conflicts with RealFuels. How should I get around this?

Sorry, could I quickly bump this? CKAN doesn't think the two play nice together, whereas the first post says they do. Is it ok to do a manual install of the two, or will that cause problems?

thanks

[ABZB]

Sorry, could I quickly bump this? CKAN doesn't think the two play nice together, whereas the first post says they do. Is it ok to do a manual install of the two, or will that cause problems?

thanks

that's odd.. I have both installed via CKAN with no problems.

[yafeshan]

The vista is being worked on, perhaps this is a bug from that editing.

I would recommend trying out the plasma engines or the arcjets. Either one are good enough to go almost anywhere and back in the system. 2x so if you have microwave power plants and are beaming it to them.

I managed to stabilize vista in vacuum with Heat Management mod of Nertea. I used insulator to to protect other parts of ship and use extra radiators for vista. However, heat insulator part do not effect waste heat transfer and vista still require a lot of radiator from either kspi or heat management mod. That many radiators kills the effectivity of vista. It is no longer a viable engine for anything.

Thermal engine seems to be the only option for first stage at this point because i could not cool vista in atmosphere(need to deploy radiators). Thermal engines still have overheating problem when fuel mode changed from atm, but it is manageable with careful control(start-stop).

[Cosmonauth]

I was trying test ships with interstellar engines. I wanted a decent dv ship. I started with thermal, it has a obvious overheating problem when i start using any fuel other than atm.

Then i used magnetic nozzle, no overheating but very small thrust. I did not understand how it supposed to have high isp too. I used dusty plasma and fusion rector variations. could not find an efficient configuration. Finaly, i got vista. I am aware of its need for more radiator but something seems very unhealty here.

http://imgur.com/a/2D2nk

Here i have 170GW heat dissipation in a 18GW ship. Reactor is fusion with heat conversion electric generator. When i started vista it started overheating in seconds. It could not reach max but the reason is not radiators colling down, it is vista overheating connected parts and making them explode very fast.

Conclusion

Either my game have some local bug or there is something wrong with engine cooling.

That is what I'm talking about. I did the same as you. Magnetic Nozzle gives ridiculous thrust, Vista overheats as hell. My point is: those engines need a bit more explanation/balance/fixes. I got decent thrust from Magnetic Nozzle only with A/M reactor, despite the fact, that some other reactors produces Charged Particles too. Nobody knows how much CP it needed, so u forced to experiment, build ships, test it, revert flight, and again and again. That's all instead playing KSP as we usually do. I haven't played KSP for a few days, just because I'm playing around with those engines.

I dont think we can expect for an adequate response from FreeThinker. As always he would say, "It's okay, it works like it has to, give it moar pawa or moar radiators!"

Edited June 15, 2015 by Cosmonauth

[raxo2222]

Guys if your thermal turbojets/vistas overheat it may be because of deadly reentry - this mod is incompatible with it.

[yafeshan]

@Cosmonauth

I agree with you on magnetic nozzle. It requires too much power to be relevant.I could understand it if it had good dV but I could not see those legendary dV amounts with nozzle either.

I still have one more test to do with vista. There can be a relation with reactor rated power and what vista requires. In my example, reactor can produce much more than vista needs.This can be a problem; if load can not meet the demand, extra reactor power may transfer to extra dangerous heat. I need to test vista with smaller reactors, just enough energy generation for vista to use. May be the solution is not more power. If this is the reason for overheating I will be happy, if not i will be a sad panda.

I have no problems with testing, it is the way of Kerbal.

Freethinker is doing an awesome job maintaining kspi, it is apparent if you see how frequent he updates. He just needs player inputs on problems.

@raxo2222

I don't have deadly reentry.

[Cosmonauth]

@raxo2222 - I don't have DR either, and I know its incompartible

@yafeshan - I tried Vista without any reactor (microwave receiver), and with reactor, both types of generators, and I did not get any significant difference. But maybe you right, and I gave it too much power (my power network provides about 10GW)

Note, that you can limit amount of power, that your receiver obtains, and get exactly 2,5 GW.

I really appreciate what FreeThinker doing to this awesome mod. I understand how complicated it is, and how much it takes to make things working at least somehow.

I want to provide some useful feedback, that's why I'm asking to give us more information on engine requirements. I am not programmer as I said before, but I'm experienced sound-recording engineer, with passion to complex hardware. I love to bring things together and figure out how it works. But obviously, every complex stuff needs some manual

[FreeThinker]

I managed to stabilize vista in vacuum with Heat Management mod of Nertea. I used insulator to to protect other parts of ship and use extra radiators for vista. However, heat insulator part do not effect waste heat transfer and vista still require a lot of radiator from either kspi or heat management mod. That many radiators kills the effectivity of vista. It is no longer a viable engine for anything.

Thermal engine seems to be the only option for first stage at this point because i could not cool vista in atmosphere(need to deploy radiators). Thermal engines still have overheating problem when fuel mode changed from atm, but it is manageable with careful control(start-stop).

Advanced radiator technology is a hidden requirment if you plan to use the Vista Engine, the amount of heat produced is simply too high if you try to achieve this with unupgraded radiators. But perhaps I'm too harch and should make the heat curve less steap and improve insulation enough to make external insulator unnesisary

Edited June 15, 2015 by FreeThinker