KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

[FreeThinker]

I isolated the issue to two mods. TAC Life support and KSPI. When TAC Life support is installed the engine does not receive the LqdWater container when switching to the water resource. It does however contain this when TAC life support is not installed which seems odd. I am attempting to figure this out on my own but you may know the answer quicker than I can figure it out.

Please open the file EnginePropellants.cfg and locate BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT for Water, what do you see? What you should see is:

BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
    name = Water
    guiName = Water
    BaseIspMultiplier = 0.3333
    MinDecompositionTemp = 2200
    MaxDecompositionTemp = 4200
    DecompositionEnergy = 2.574
    ispMultiplier = 0.4714
    thrustMultiplier = 1.4142
    sootFactor = -1
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LqdWater
        storageName = Water
        ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
}

Notice, it has something special, namely storageName = Water, this tell KSPI to convert Water into LqdWater when the engine is enabled. The Engine itslef runs on LqdWater, depite what the FuelGauge is telling you. This is intentional. Now some what resource should appears when you select water, if it doesn't something must have be wrong with your installation.

Edited August 22, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Trolllception]

Please open the file EnginePropellants.cfg and locate BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT for Water, what do you see? What you should see is:

BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
    name = Water
    guiName = Water
    BaseIspMultiplier = 0.3333
    MinDecompositionTemp = 2200
    MaxDecompositionTemp = 4200
    DecompositionEnergy = 2.574
    ispMultiplier = 0.4714
    thrustMultiplier = 1.4142
    sootFactor = -1
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LqdWater
        storageName = Water
        ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
}

Notice, it has something special, namely storageName = Water, this tell KSPI to convert Water into LqdWater when the engine is enabled. The Engine itslef runs on LqdWater, depite what the FuelGauge is telling you. This is intentional. Now some what resource should appears when you select water, if it doesn't something must have be wrong with your installation.

TACLifeSupportFix.cfg changes the @PROPELLANT[LqdWater] Name=LqdWater to Name=Water from what I can tell.

Commenting out the below section appears to fix the issue.

@BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT[Water]:NEEDS[TacLifeSupport]:FOR[WarpPlugin]

{

@PROPELLANT[LqdWater]

{

@name = Water

}

}

Also my engine still allows me to switch to 'Water' but it doesn't consume any as long as the above is commented out and the propellant is locked. I thought I remember reading you fixed that and water shouldn't be an option on the engine if it's unavailable.

[FreeThinker]

TACLifeSupportFix.cfg changes the @PROPELLANT[LqdWater] Name=LqdWater to Name=Water from what I can tell.

Commenting out the below section appears to fix the issue.

@BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT[Water]:NEEDS[TacLifeSupport]:FOR[WarpPlugin]

{

@PROPELLANT[LqdWater]

{

@name = Water

}

}

Also my engine still allows me to switch to 'Water' but it doesn't consume any as long as the above is commented out and the propellant is locked. I thought I remember reading you fixed that and water shouldn't be an option on the engine if it's unavailable.

What the hack, I tried to help TAC and as thanks they sabotage KSPI-E. guess I have to rename it to something else, any ideas?

[Parmenides]

Whenever I install this mod I have a massivly lagging technology screen.

Any idea what could be the cause?

[FreeThinker]

It works well (ish). It throws some errors in the VAB, and I had the clear feeling that it stop to work for a moment when I timewarped for few seconds, restarting his job from 0 out of TimeWarp.

EDIT: here's a screenshot

http://i.imgur.com/e48U67e.png

Not sure what he is complaining about, must be some KSP stock issue that tries to create drag modules or something. I don't think it negatively effects KSPI functionality. Perhaps something went wrong when conveting to DSS

[bos]

What the hack, I tried to help TAC and as thanks they sabotage KSPI-E. guess I have to rename it to something else, any ideas?

This is in the KSPI-E patches folder, not coming from TAC. Looks like some attempt had been made to do something with TAC previously?

[Nansuchao]

Not sure what he is complaining about, must be some KSP stock issue that tries to create drag modules or something. I don't think it negatively effects KSPI functionality. Perhaps something went wrong when conveting to DSS

In fact I said it works well. I was able to put it in orbit, it heated a little and shows aerodinamic overlay, so I'm not worried, it was just to make you know that.

[Trolllception]

In fact I said it works well. I was able to put it in orbit, it heated a little and shows aerodinamic overlay, so I'm not worried, it was just to make you know that.

What about the comment with timewarping?

[Nansuchao]

I have to try better. I just had this feeling. I will make further testing very soon on that argument.

[FreeThinker]

This is in the KSPI-E patches folder, not coming from TAC. Looks like some attempt had been made to do something with TAC previously?

Dammit, it appears to be an obsolete file that was added by a third party which I accepted. It seems totally redundant since everything is already converted to Water

[Nansuchao]

Whenever I install this mod I have a massivly lagging technology screen.

Any idea what could be the cause?

can you provide more data? Lag in the VAB or during flight? What other mods are you using? On which pc?

[yafeshan]

Freethinker you are great. Very nice particle acceleration module. I know it is not priority for it right now but I still have some ideas about it.

Particle acceleration main mode can be anti-proton generation with a specific amount depending its power usage. It will of course require hydrogen as a fuel. A temporary containment tank should be required for generated anti-protons. After that stage science lab can decelerate anti-protons and store them in permanent containment tank. Required power levels will need some balancing of course.

Since exotic matter subject became a discussion this particle accelerator can solve that problem too.

Overcharged mod for particle accelerator can create sub-atomic tiny black hole (it was theorized when LHC was being built). Why do we need black hole? Exotic matter supposed to cause negative mass and negative energy. The only known negative mass effect is Casimir Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

One theoretical cause of casimir effect is virtual particles which are created as matter-antimatter couples and destroy eachother in an instant. These particles becomes relevant near event horizon of a black hole. This is defined as hawking radiation.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/hawking.html

I know its all theoretical but it is something we can use. Overcharged particle accelerator produces exotic matter by utilizinf a subatomic black hole(Hey there trekkies, Romulan warbird warp drive is powered by micro singularity).

I always believed that warp should not be free. Right now warp engines in kspi-e generates its own fuel. I think its better to generate its fuel somewhere else and later refuel warp ship.

[FreeThinker]

A temporary containment tank should be required for generated anti-protons.

How should this part look like. What about a toroidal shaped tank?

Which kind of looks like this Amti Matter storage tank design:

Antimatter storage proposal :

or more shaped like a centrifuge?:

Or even our exotic storage tank which is currently used as a refinery:

But what about the capture of antiprotons in space we discussed in the past:

Interesting data Btw, a 2 ton anti proton trap, requiring 200kW which can collect 1.2 ng of antimatter a day. Would be nice if we would have such a model.

Edited August 22, 2015 by FreeThinker

[danfarnsy]

NOtice the particle accelerate will be especially valuable for the creation of exotic matter, which cannot be created out of thin air, like rover dude like you to believe.

The Space.com article referring to "strange" matter as exotic matter is not the same exotic matter as that required for warp drives or stabilizing worm holes. Sometimes I get really annoyed with science writers who majored in journalism instead of a science. The exotic matter for warp drives has "negative" mass. Yafeshan referred to it with the Casimir effect, but the Casimir effect involves a special region where the quantized electromagnetic vacuum has a lower energy density than open vacuum. Where vacuum is arbitrarily defined as "zero" energy density (nevermind that the sum of the energy over all possible modes is infinite, unless you include a Plank-length wavelength cutoff, then it's just ridiculously large), a Casimir cavity has a negative energy density. Because the energy of the quantized vacuum doesn't gravitate (one of the huge contradictions between general relativity and quantum mechanics), the negative energy of the Casimir cavity is treated by general relativity as a negative mass, being gravitationally repelled by normal mass-energy. *This* is the exotic matter needed for bizarre solutions of GR which involve stabilized worm holes and warp drives. Ultimately, there are no predicted particles, from particle accelerators or otherwise, which have this feature of negative mass-energy. There are only special regions of modified boundary conditions (like two conductive plates) which have effective negative mass.

TL,DR: It's fine to use a particle accelerator to create exotic matter for your plug-in, but an Alcubierre Warp Drive's required exotic matter is not known to be producible through any process in a particle accelerator. In fact, it's not known to be producible at all.

Edit: FWIW, my research emphasis is Quantum Optics and Quantum Information. Also, I previously wrote "stabilizing black holes" instead of "stabilizing worm holes." Oops.

Edited August 23, 2015 by danfarnsy

[ss8913]

Has anyone noticed that the new RCS doesn't always want to work in certain directions at certain times? Things I've observed:

1. Large ship, doesn't want to command roll at all. Not using any propellant, can only roll using SAS which on a 500-1000t ship isn't that great.

2. Spaceplane with flat RCS ports on the wings.. push I to translate "down" and only one wing's RCS port fires causing roll. F5/F9 fixed this one, but not the other.

3. When I was trying to develop my own upgraded RCS thrusters for KSPIE, I tried ModuleRCSFX and went back to ModuleRCS - why? Because I saw this exact same type of behavior where RCSFX just didn't want to work in certain directions at certain times.

Am I smoking crack or is anyone else seeing this too?

[FreeThinker]

Has anyone noticed that the new RCS doesn't always want to work in certain directions at certain times? Things I've observed:

1. Large ship, doesn't want to command roll at all. Not using any propellant, can only roll using SAS which on a 500-1000t ship isn't that great.

2. Spaceplane with flat RCS ports on the wings.. push I to translate "down" and only one wing's RCS port fires causing roll. F5/F9 fixed this one, but not the other.

3. When I was trying to develop my own upgraded RCS thrusters for KSPIE, I tried ModuleRCSFX and went back to ModuleRCS - why? Because I saw this exact same type of behavior where RCSFX just didn't want to work in certain directions at certain times.

Am I smoking crack or is anyone else seeing this too?

Yes, I think I confirm. I assumed the RCS didn't trigger because it wasn't located at the right locations. Or that it concluded it was't strong enough to be effective.From what I understand, there is a minimum threshold it has to overcome. This should prevent RCS from wasting propellant.

I think we need to investigate this further. I assumed ModuleRCSFX was superior to ModuleRCS, but perhaps that conclusion was premature. Also, I always though that the SAS strenth it plainly wrong. since it shaped like an large disk, it would make sence iif its majority of togue, should be for rolling not for pitch and yaw.

Edit: I noticed Regular RCS has the same issue, so I conclude this is not a ModuleRCSFX issue but a minor RCS Stock Issue. Simply put, RCS does not activate then it is not located on a suitable lacation, you need you Reaction wheel to do this.

Edit, if you place the RCS correct, it will fire when rolling. seems it just a matter of putt them on the right location

Edited August 23, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Notice, ModuleRCSFX has ** RCS Axis Control **. THe problem is that these are only accesable in the VAB, I could try to unlock these features also in the Flight. Would that be of any use

Edit. For the next version, I will expose all switches in flight. It should be especially useful for space station which have changing center of mass

Edit, I will also put them under an action group, allowing you to enable/disable groups of RCS port at the switch of a button

Edited August 23, 2015 by FreeThinker

[yafeshan]

@danfarsny

Very good explanation my friend. Thanks for clearing out some points.

My reasoning was possible relation of casimir effect with virtual partcles. Virtual particles causes hawking radiation which happens for black holes. I know it is not completely scientificaly true to connect all this but I wanted to suggest a reasonable method. Viable way to produce warp engine fuel which all science fiction at this point.

@Freethinker

Temporary containment is needed because generated anti-protonns have very high energy and they need to be "cooled" down. While they have high energy they are cooled while moving around a smaller track similar to particle acceleration track. Energetic paritcles need to move around, this temporary containment supplies it. Therefore the first model is more realistic to me.

[FreeThinker]

@Freethinker

Temporary containment is needed because generated anti-protonns have very high energy and they need to be "cooled" down. While they have high energy they are cooled while moving around a smaller track similar to particle acceleration track. Energetic paritcles need to move around, this temporary containment supplies it. Therefore the first model is more realistic to me.

Altight, when we need to define a new resource which represent the High Speed Antimatter which would be stored inside the Torus storage device where it is converted into frozen AntiMatter. Any ideas?

[yafeshan]

Altight, when we need to define a new resource which represent the High Speed Antimatter which would be stored inside the Torus storage device where it is converted into frozen AntiMatter. Any ideas?

That is what I am suggesting exactly. Conversion operation should be done by Science lab as you suggested before. Science lab should require personel. Torus storage is just storage, antimatter should go into a cool down process done by another module(science lab)

Similar process can be used for exotic matter as warp fuel but with much higher power requirements. It is exotic matter after all.

All these modules should be at the end of tech tree, same level tech node as warp engine

Edited August 23, 2015 by yafeshan

[silversliver]

Altight, when we need to define a new resource which represent the High Speed Antimatter which would be stored inside the Torus storage device where it is converted into frozen AntiMatter. Any ideas?

Cosmic rays particles?

[danfarnsy]

While I respect what Yafeshan is advocating here, I think it's an unnecessary complication to have a special resource for hot anti-matter that is then converted into cold anti-matter. These anti-protons do have a lot of kinetic energy after they're produced, and in the real world we have to slow them down first. But I think that, for KSP-I, it's just a bit too much to have two separate types of anti-matter. If we want to have/require toroidal storage tanks which represent a process of both cooling and magnetic storage, that would be awesome. We lose something of the *game* by trying to so meticulously represent reality, particularly when "hot antimatter" is a resource which will never be directly used. It's an intermediate step, and players will only ever use "cold antimatter" in their reactors. So let's just generate antimatter, not have separate types, but let's use special tanks like FreeThinker's excellent toroid models to store it, with the idea that the toroidal tanks represent both cooling and storage of produced antimatter.

I like the direction overall, and this system does need an overhaul. My vote is for simplicity.

By the way, are those toroid models from Talisar's old spherical tanks mod? I miss that mod.

- - - Updated - - -

And I have to revise my feedback:

Using a crewed science lab as a requirement for the "cooling down" of produced anti-matter or exotic particles sounds great to me. No science lab with your particle accelerator, then no stored antimatter. I like it.

[ABZB]

By the way, are those toroid models from Talisar's old spherical tanks mod? I miss that mod.

It's available on CKAN. to kill the part bloat, I deleted all but one of the toroidal hubs and toroids from my gamedata folder, and added the magic of tweakscale

Edited August 23, 2015 by ABZB

[Blauerdaemon]

Thank you for your great work!

Is there a reason (except time constraints) why the VISTA engine only supports D-T and no other fuel modes listed for inertial confinement fusion (ICF)?

[yafeshan]

While I respect what Yafeshan is advocating here, I think it's an unnecessary complication to have a special resource for hot anti-matter that is then converted into cold anti-matter..

Thanks for valuable input. My suggestion is about making antimatter and exotic matter hard to access. At least hard to get in large quantities. It does not matter if we had another resources we will not ever use. It can give us content to work. Trial and error to get optimum fuel production vessels. I like complexity, thats just my preference.

Simplicity is fine too but for some people out there KSPI-e is too op. Anti-matter is too powerfull and exotic matter is even free when you have a warp engine. They should be a lot harder to collect in my opinion.