How to build bases?

[Silverwood]

Hi

Having been playing for several months now, I thought I would start to have a go at a base. I have had a look through forums & you tube and watched  a few videos, read  a few articles and well, it looks so hard!

Has anyone managed to build a simple base? My main problem(challenge?) is how to move things once you get your core in place. Unless I am doing it wrong, there does not seem to be engineering items in the game designed to allow you to move living quarters, etc around.

Any information from someone who has completed a small base would be useful.

Thanks.

Keith

[Zhetaan]

My first piece of advice is to put the base together at KSC so you know where you will find the worst misalignment problems as so forth.   These are issues that you cannot find in the VAB; you must field test.  It would stink to put a lifting thruster one one side of a module only to find out you put it on the wrong side when you get to Tylo.

Second, pick a good local location to work out the details of moving base pieces on the surface.  Minmus Flats biomes are my usual choice for this, but the Ice Shelves are a surprisingly challenging place, too.

For getting the pieces together once you're there, it's a trade-off:  if you put your base on landing legs, the weight of the vessel can compress the suspension and cause misalignment.  Girders are more durable and rigid, but they require dead flat terrain.  The Klaw is ugly as sin.  You can often get things together if you take an abundance of monopropellant and small engines, or you can build mobile bases (meaning many assembled rovers).

Or you could try a base-building mod.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Zhetaan

[FlyingPete]

Build a common base section on rover wheels with docking ports, some battery storage and a probe core. Use this for all modules and build whatever you want on top (fuel modules, living quarters, science lab, ore containers etc) This way the individual sections can be driven into place and interlock with the others. Since everything is based on the same core module, anything will connect to everything. Disable the wheel motors on each section once they're in their final position. This also allows for the base to be reconfigured later on.

[Pecan]

1. Fly all the components of your base to the destination orbit
2. Assemble there
3. Land it

(I remember Whackjob; although he'd launch the whole thing in one go)

[Silverwood]

ok thanks.

I will try some of your ideas.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

@Silverwood, here is my first-ever base on Mun.

 

 

Much of what's here is unnecessary, but it was my first base and I wanted to make several modules for it. I put each of the modules together (connected by those little "fuel lines") with the rover below.

 

 

 

You can see the docking port on one side and Klaw on the other. This makes for good versatility. Even though all these modules have the same base (extremely important) to make connections easy and universal, it's best to have a Klaw as well.

 

 

Above, you can see each base has landing legs, but also three docking ports; so that there's a docking port on each side except one.

 

 

Above, you see that the side without a docking port has a single retractable landing gear. When the module is landed, you drive your rover up to it and connect to the side opposite the landing gear (the single docking port) and extend the gear. Then, retract the landing legs. You will now be able to push the module around on the landing gear wheels (this will take some practice to learn to control). You'll be able to move your modules around and set them up however you want. It's a bit tedious, but I remember the first couple bases being a lot of fun. Remember to do ample testing on Kerbin. And especially remember that the docking ports on your modules will be slightly higher on the Mun (because of the lower gravity). This is where the Klaw comes in especially handy. It does not need a perfect alignment to connect.

Best of luck to you. I think you'll enjoy building your base.

 

[Spricigo]

Prefer to use docking ports parallel to the ground  and use rovers that slide under the modules when moving is necessary. 

There is also a few mod options around that facility the handling (KAS, Konstruction, simple logistics...)

[Silverwood]

9 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

@Silverwood, here is my first-ever base on Mun.

 

 

Much of what's here is unnecessary, but it was my first base and I wanted to make several modules for it. I put each of the modules together (connected by those little "fuel lines") with the rover below.

 

 

 

You can see the docking port on one side and Klaw on the other. This makes for good versatility. Even though all these modules have the same base (extremely important) to make connections easy and universal, it's best to have a Klaw as well.

 

 

Above, you can see each base has landing legs, but also three docking ports; so that there's a docking port on each side except one.

 

 

Above, you see that the side without a docking port has a single retractable landing gear. When the module is landed, you drive your rover up to it and connect to the side opposite the landing gear (the single docking port) and extend the gear. Then, retract the landing legs. You will now be able to push the module around on the landing gear wheels (this will take some practice to learn to control). You'll be able to move your modules around and set them up however you want. It's a bit tedious, but I remember the first couple bases being a lot of fun. Remember to do ample testing on Kerbin. And especially remember that the docking ports on your modules will be slightly higher on the Mun (because of the lower gravity). This is where the Klaw comes in especially handy. It does not need a perfect alignment to connect.

Best of luck to you. I think you'll enjoy building your base.

 

Ok thanks. One question how do you transport the rovers?

I tried a simple one, but the rocket just veers left & spirals downwards.

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, Silverwood said:

Ok thanks. One question how do you transport the rovers?

I tried a simple one, but the rocket just veers left & spirals downwards.

In short: align thrust with CoM  and put it inside a fairing. 

The rover mass distribution is most likely to be unbalanced top/down than left/right for obvious reason. Try to minimize the asymetries, offset/rotate parts as necessary and  even consider to attach extra parts just for ballancing. I usually rotate my rover so, during launch,  it pitches in the east-west direction and yaws north-south to cope with any residual asymmetry. 

Another option it to send the muptiple rovers in a symmetrical arrangements (notable in pairs). But that isn't much viable for big ones. (Extra-large rover tanker, anyone?)

[Geschosskopf]

23 hours ago, Silverwood said:

Has anyone managed to build a simple base? My main problem(challenge?) is how to move things once you get your core in place. Unless I am doing it wrong, there does not seem to be engineering items in the game designed to allow you to move living quarters, etc around.

Well, except for the "build a base" contracts where you end up with just 1 big lander and never touch it again, there's no such thing as a "simple" base.  Anything you want to build for yourself and add onto over time will face the same challenges regardless of what it does.  Because all such "real" bases are rather a pain, don't just build a base as decoration.  Have it serve a real gameplay purpose so you'll have an incentive to go through with the project.  The most common purpose is to make fuel, but you can also have it make spare parts or even entire ships.  Or maybe you're just using it as a location in a story you're telling.  But it has to DO something to be worth the trouble

Regardless of why you're building the base, LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.  So you have to do a good job on recon to find the best place.  It must be reasonably flat or you'll have all sorts of problems.  If the base is mining/refining resources, it obviously needs to be on a good concentration of those resources.  And if space-going ships are going to be coming and going on a regular basis, you want the base as close to the equator as possible, so the ships don't waste fuel with inclination changes (although this isn't a big deal on low-gravity worlds).

Anyway, there are 3 main physical challenges to building a base.  Various mods either help or hinder these things, so choose carefully.  These challenges, and ways to deal with them, are as follows:

1. Landing multiple modules in the same place  This is MUCH easier on an airless world and is just doing like any other lander.  If you're an experienced pilot, you can do this yourself.  Otherwise, use MechJeb's landing AI.  MJ needs a target to land on and you don't want it landing on your previous base modules, so it's a good idea to plant a flag where you want the next module to come down.  If the world has an atmosphere, accurately landing with chutes very difficult so the modules will need the ability to drive possibly several km to the base--be sure they have that ability.  If the atmosphere is thick enough to fly it (and has very little land, such as Laythe), it might be better to build the modules as gliders or airplanes and fly them to the site.
2. Positioning the modules near each other:  This basically means all your modules need wheels and a degree of land-worthiness based on their expected travel distance after landing.  Several base part mods nowadays have special wheels designed to fit the modules, and these have built-in decouplers and self-destruct.  These typically work great over short distances and on flat terrain after very accurate landings on airless worlds.  However, if you need to drive several km through Duna's dune fields, you'll probably need to go with large rover wheels (mod or stock).
3. Connecting the modules together:  The difficulty of this can range from high to zero depending on mods.  High difficulty is using docking ports (IOW, stock).  This is because slight unevenness in the terrain and the flex of the wheel suspensions can keep the ports from aligning.  I strongly recommend AGAINST doing this.  You can use the Klaw instead of docking ports, but that looks ugly and causes Kraken problems.  A better solution is to just park the modules near each other and then link them with KAS pipes.  However, this also causes Kraken problems.  The best solution is to use a mod that allows resource transfer between separate, disconnected modules in close proximity, such as Pathfinder or MKS.  With these, all you have to do is park the modules close enough together then turn on the resource-sharing function.  Thus, no worries about docking and your base isn't so tempting to the Kraken.

The main hassles of base-building are as follows.  You can reduce or eliminate some of these by design choices and mod selection, but expect to have to deal with these to some extent.

• The Kraken:  If you physically connect  your base modules, either directly or with KAS, eventually the Kraken will attack.  Thus, as mentioned above, I recommend mods that allow resource transfer between disconnected modules.
• Wheels and Lander Leg Issues:  Despite continuous efforts to resolve various problems, these parts still have various Kraken-inducing and Kerbal-killing features.  Do not trust them.  It's therefore best to NOT have either type of part on your modules, at least once the modules are positioned.  You want your base modules sitting on the ground, not supported by wheels or legs.  
• Repetition:  You'll be doing the same thing over and over again as you add to the base.  Once you've added a few modules, this becomes old hat and thus quite boring, no longer challenging.  But you have to keep on keeping on anyway.
• Time Suckage:  Remember, a base (or station), no matter how cool it is, is simply overhead.  It's there to support OTHER operations.  Problem is, the more complex you make the base, the more time you have to spend juggling its various components to keep it all running correctly, and the less time you have to go fly the rockets the base builds, or whatever.  Thus, if you run life support and/or want to build rockets on other planets, I STRONGLY recommend using the absolute simplest mods for those functions available.  Or even do without life support and just roleplay having it.  Otherwise, you'll never actually get to do the main operations you built the base to support.

Here's an example of doing a base with Pathfinder and it's magic ability to share resources between disconnected modules:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/142652-new-horizons-travelling-circus-interlude-everything-is-broken/&do=findComment&comment=2685992

 

[Silverwood]

Well.. what replies. Thank you all.

I am going to have a go, one question though...what is the 'Kraken'?

[Geschosskopf]

18 minutes ago, Silverwood said:

Well.. what replies. Thank you all.

I am going to have a go, one question though...what is the 'Kraken'?

The Kraken what we call various bugs that cause massive death and destruction.  It usually manifests on physics load, such as when you approach a base or station with your active ship, or just when you go to a ship, base, or station from the tracking center. A list of some of the more annoying Kraken antics include:  bases hopping into the air and falling back to explode, stations twisting and shaking themselves apart, ships being flung thousands of light years away from Kerbin or sucked into the infinite void of nothingness.

The Kerbals can't help but see these effects as the acts of some evil god or demon, which they call the Kraken.  Some of them worship it, including sacrificing Kerbals to it, although this is usually an underground / illegal cult.  But all of them believe in the Kraken and fear it.

So basically, all players eventually have the Kraken destroy something.  The Kraken especially likes big, complex assemblies, especially if these are built up by connecting previously separate modules.  The Kraken also loves clipped parts.  Thus, the less you do these things, the less often the Kraken will attack your stuff.  But it will happen.  When it does, just shrug it off and, if possible, just roll with it instead of reverting.  The Kraken makes things more interesting

Edited September 16, 2017 by Geschosskopf

[Alshain]

IMO, real surface bases don't exist in this game unless KIS is installed.

KIS is a mod that allows you to attach parts insitu without the pain of trying to align docking ports on an uneven surface.  Don't worry, takes realism into account nicely.  A single Kerbal can only lift a certain mass, but multiple Kerbals can lift together.  Components are shipped in containers that have volume limits (you can send them normally and detach/attach also).

 

In my games, thats the only way bases get built other than the 'large lander' method where the whole base is landed as one piece.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Alshain

[Theysen]

I'd love a mod which allows terraforming (on the grand scope) starting with base modules you can dig into the ground (moon village by ESA) or use the terrain as part of the base itself, building a real infrastructure (e.g ground rail tracks to a landing pad which then gets picked up by a little train or something like this :p) 

To the specific question: the above posters really got it down in detail. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Theysen

[Alshain]

14 minutes ago, Theysen said:

I'd love a mod which allows terraforming (on the grand scope) starting with base modules you can dig into the ground (moon village by ESA) or use the terrain as part of the base itself, building a real infrastructure. 

To the specific question: the above posters really got it down in detail. 

Unfortunately, not possible.  Due to technical limitations, the planets and moons are all illusions.  They are hollow spheroids with nothing to 'dig into', only what you see on the surface actually exists.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Alshain
Stupid autocorrect thinks planet = planetoid.

[Theysen]

18 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Unfortunately, not possible.  Due to technical limitations, the planets and moons are all illusions.  They are hollow spheroids with nothing to 'dig into', only what you see on the surface actually exists.

I know all that. It would essentially need a rewrite of any planetoid rendering features or the entire game maybe? Or a mod which somehow manages to fake it.

But one can dream

[klesh]

Since people have posted examples of the docking port moethod of base construction, here is one which features the Kerbal Attachment System pipe method.

 

Those modules are simply landed next to one another by hand, and the pipes are created when you connect the little pipe-end-pieces that are placed on the craft.  The end pieces can be re-oriented by taking them off and putting them back on the craft in a better spot once you've landed.  You can also send up a container with several of the pipe ends inside it, for future use.

This is a very flexible method but slightly unrealistic.  The entire base is now considered one ship and you can transfer Kerbals between the modules in what would be through those small pipes.  You can also just EVA them and walk them over to the other modules if you want them realistic feels.

One of the benefits to this method is that you can place the base on a more uneven surface, as the pipes needn't be aligned:

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

5 hours ago, Silverwood said:

Ok thanks. One question how do you transport the rovers?

I tried a simple one, but the rocket just veers left & spirals downwards.

Stuck at work (as per usual), but when I get home I'll show you a couple of my rover rockets. They're almighty-big, of course (I don't use the fairing method, as described by @Spricigo; that's for sane people ), but they work just fine. With a large enough rocket, I do believe I could put the KSC in orbit. 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

@Silverwood, here are a couple of rover lifters.

This is the rover in the earlier pic of my Mun base. The rover constructed the base, then became the refueling rover that would transfer fuel to the fuel shuttle; which would in turn head to orbit and refuel whichever ship needed to top off its tanks. Worked fine, but I soon discovered it makes a whole lot more sense to use Minmus for refueling operations. The rover, and the base itself, have mostly just been collecting dust ever since. For the rocket itself, obviously not a very good design (it was my first rover, after all), but it worked pretty well. The rover itself is empty except for the monopropellent. The sky crane lands the rover pretty easily, but RCS is absolutely necessary to maintain control. The mass is off-center, but I felt it was more important to get a good launch. As un-aerodynamic as the rocket is, it handles well until the rover and sky crane are detached.

 

 

Here's a monster refueling rover I sent to Eeloo (I sent one to Bop, as well).  No real reason to send such a huge rover. I just wanted to. Not sure why I didn't use Mammoths to lift this thing. I assume there was a reason, but I can't remember what it was. The RCS was even more important on the sky crane for this one, because the mass is even more off-center. But again, the launch itself worked just fine.

 

 

These example are obviously pretty simple. No real artistry to them. Just showing that a large rover can be launched and landed pretty easily (if not cheaply).

Edited September 17, 2017 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[Silverwood]

16 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

The Kraken what we call various bugs that cause massive death and destruction.  It usually manifests on physics load, such as when you approach a base or station with your active ship, or just when you go to a ship, base, or station from the tracking center. A list of some of the more annoying Kraken antics include:  bases hopping into the air and falling back to explode, stations twisting and shaking themselves apart, ships being flung thousands of light years away from Kerbin or sucked into the infinite void of nothingness.

The Kerbals can't help but see these effects as the acts of some evil god or demon, which they call the Kraken.  Some of them worship it, including sacrificing Kerbals to it, although this is usually an underground / illegal cult.  But all of them believe in the Kraken and fear it.

So basically, all players eventually have the Kraken destroy something.  The Kraken especially likes big, complex assemblies, especially if these are built up by connecting previously separate modules.  The Kraken also loves clipped parts.  Thus, the less you do these things, the less often the Kraken will attack your stuff.  But it will happen.  When it does, just shrug it off and, if possible, just roll with it instead of reverting.  The Kraken makes things more interesting

Aha...that explains what happened to my first space station. It has around five separate modules and yesterday I was adding another after which I noticed the whole thing was shaking. Not sure why, now I know!

6 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

@Silverwood, here are a couple of rover lifters.

This is the rover in the earlier pic of my Mun base. The rover constructed the base, then became the refueling rover that would transfer fuel to the fuel shuttle; which would in turn head to orbit and refuel whichever ship needed to top off its tanks. Worked fine, but I soon discovered it makes a whole lot more sense to use Minmus for refueling operations. The rover, and the base itself, have mostly just been collecting dust ever since. For the rocket itself, obviously not a very good design (it was my first rover, after all), but it worked pretty well. The rover itself is empty except for the monopropellent. The sky crane lands the rover pretty easily, but RCS is absolutely necessary to maintain control. The mass is off-center, but I felt it was more important to get a good launch. As un-aerodynamic as the rocket is, it handles well until the rover and sky crane are detached.

 

 

Here's a monster refueling rover I sent to Eeloo (I sent one to Bop, as well).  No real reason to send such a huge rover. I just wanted to. Not sure why I didn't use Mammoths to lift this thing. I assume there was a reason, but I can't remember what it was. The RCS was even more important on the sky crane for this one, because the mass is even more off-center. But again, the launch itself worked just fine.

 

 

These example are obviously pretty simple. No real artistry to them. Just showing that a large rover can be launched and landed pretty easily (if not cheaply).

Ok thanks.

I haven't tried anything as big as these, in fact my biggest rocket only had two boosters. Time to experiment.

[Geschosskopf]

3 hours ago, Silverwood said:

Aha...that explains what happened to my first space station. It has around five separate modules and yesterday I was adding another after which I noticed the whole thing was shaking. Not sure why, now I know!

Yup, that's the Kraken taking a nibble.  It might go away or it might get worse.  Good luck

When it comes to bases and stations, the Kraken seems mostly to derive from small forces being applied upon physics load.  There often seems to be a slight difference from where 1 part of the game thinks a part should be and where another part of the game actually puts it.  This causes slight misalignments in the various joints of the craft, so when physical forces suddenly start being applied, these joints try to snap back into proper alignment.  This causes the parts of the assembly to move relative to each other, which causes stretching in other joints due to the inertia of the parts, and these other joints then try to snap back into alignment, which in turn affects all other joints.  Usually, all this "wake-up stretching" is too small and over too fast for the player to notice and life goes on.  But sometimes it creates an harmonic oscillation in the structure.  If you're lucky, this sits at an equilibrium point so the whole structure shakes continuously but no real harm done. At other times, however, the oscillations are self-reinforcing, causing the amplitude eventually to exceed the flex tolerance of 1 or more joints, and the assembly tears itself apart.

There are several things you can do to minimize your exposure to this sort of Kraken (there are many types of Kraken).  First, use Kerbal Joint Reinforcement, which takes the flex out of permanent joint (like between fuel tanks in a stack) nearly removes flex in decouplers, and reduces flex in docking ports.  You can also reduce the number of joints, either by using bigger points or even resorting to Ubizor Welding to turn multiple parts in to 1 part (although this is something of a pain to do).  You should also minimize the number of docking joints, which are inherently the most stretchy of all types of joints.  For the docking joints you can't avoid, the bigger the port, the more rigid the joint, so try to use only the largest size.  Also, keep the connected modules the same diameter as the ports.  Connecting large-diameter parts with small-diameter ports overloads the ports and increases oscillations.  You can also reduce overall flex in assemblies with struts.  Use KAS to attach struts between modules after you've docked them, especially if the ports are smaller than the modules or docked ships.  And try to minimize the length and mass of stuff on the far side of a docking port.  IOW, don't make long chains of docked modules---grow the station radially instead of linearly.

Bases are more prone to physics load Kraken attacks than stations, due to topography.  Away from KSC, the only perfectly flat surfaces in the game are the "Flats" of Minmus.  Everywhere else, the ground always has slight undulations across very short distances.  Every time you load physics, the base gets placed in a very slightly different location relative to the ground than it was before.  Thus, some of its parts might be placed clipping slightly into the ground, and physics immediately causes them to jump back up onto the surface.  Also, modules might now be on opposite sides of a crest or valley in the small-scale terrain undulations, so the joints between them now have to bend in different directions.  And the COM of some parts might now be over the crest of a small undulation, so the part now wants to tip parallel to a different slope and perhaps start sliding downhill.  Thus, there are more ways external forces can stretch joints, in more directions, and these external forces are constant (because gravity is constantly applied) instead of transient like when a station loads.  As a result, the base can be subjected to more and stronger forces for longer time in more directions, and thus can be destroyed more frequently than a station.  And having flexible connections between the base and the ground (such as having it sitting on wheels or lander legs) makes things worse because these parts can contribute to increasingly large oscillations.

So, to make a base as Kraken-resistant as possible, use a mod that allows resource flow between disconnected modules.  That allows you to make the base out of small modules that themselves are highly Kraken-resistant due to having few parts and joints.  And have all modules resting on the ground, not on wheels or lander legs.  And whatever you do, DO NOT anchor the modules to the ground.  That's really asking for trouble because the anchor won't move but the rest of the module will, so you get some nasty stretching and snapping.  If the modules aren't anchored, over time as you repeatedly load physics on the base, the individual modules will gradually move and/or rotate very slightly due to the terrain irregularities, but they won't move more than a few feet over several years.  Because they're not physically connected to each other, this movement has zero effect on the base's functionality, instead providing a stark illustration of the stresses and strains that would have built up in the base and likely destroyed it long ago had you connected it all.

The downside of this method of building a base is a lack of aesthetics.  Your base will look like a shanty town, especially as the modules move and rotate relative to each other over time.  But such a base will last for many years, whereas better looking connected bases will be Kraken fodder in short order.  Personally, I'd rather have longevity than looks, so I consider this a small price to pay.  Plus, it's MUCH easier to build a disconnected base.

[Alshain]

Not every bug or physics abnormality is called the Kraken.  The Kraken are a very specific set of issues, none of which occur anymore unless you are messing around with mods or the game code.  The original Kraken is dead, permanently.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Alshain

[Silverwood]

7 hours ago, Alshain said:

Not every bug or physics abnormality is called the Kraken.  The Kraken are a very specific set of issues, none of which occur anymore unless you are messing around with mods or the game code.  The original Kraken is dead, permanently.

Well the only mod I have is Mecjeb, so no idea why the station wobbles.

[agrasyuk]

I had several instances of bases go shaky shakes and tear themselves apart. It woldnt happen until third or forth time switching to them from map/tracking statuon.until it happened on almost stock station I mistakenly attributed it to infernal robotic mod - my 6x gigantor solar panel array is mounted on rotating telescoping boom to lift it above the structure and rotate for E-W orientation.  Upon switch on aND physics set in the panels started shaking then flapping then the entire base jumps above and pieces spread everywhere. 

 the Solution or rather workaround I found is as folows: switch to base and be ready on that "." Key. If things start twiching note which ones, set time compression x5 quickly before any damage.  Rigt click on affected part/s (pin menu as needed), resume time to normal and quickly change auto strutting mode before physics fully kick in. In my case it required several slow fast transitions to get all 6 panels. Ot didn't matter which autostrut was set in factory, before launching second base I updated to autostrut that fixed the issue and still eventually got shakes when on surface. 

[Geschosskopf]

19 hours ago, Alshain said:

Not every bug or physics abnormality is called the Kraken.  The Kraken are a very specific set of issues, none of which occur anymore unless you are messing around with mods or the game code.  The original Kraken is dead, permanently.

Oh, don't be so pedantic   When your ship/base/station shakes itself to bits, or is whisked away to the intergalactic void, etc., the Kraken did it.  Maybe not the Original Kraken for which Krakenbane was developed, but one of the many others