Mars Colonization Discussion Thread

[sh1pman]

So it's going to completely sublimate away eventually.

[Green Baron]

Nope. The process is much too slow ...

But it is (if the interpretation is correct and things are as they seem) in the wrong latitudes for an astronaut with a shovel and a bucket. Don't buy a ticket yet ;-)

[PB666]

32 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Nope. The process is much too slow ...

But it is (if the interpretation is correct and things are as they seem) in the wrong latitudes for an astronaut with a shovel and a bucket. Don't buy a ticket yet ;-)

If enough people buy tickets there will be alot of water on mars, gathered in 2 x 1 x 1 meter rectangular spaces. What was the name of that movie, Soilent green . . . .

[Green Baron]

I was a youngster when i first saw that movie, but i already liked Beethoven. In relation to my age, it was the most impressive and disturbing movie a have ever seen ...

[PB666]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

I was a youngster when i first saw that movie, but i already liked Beethoven. In relation to my age, it was the most impressive and disturbing movie a have ever seen ...

Its not an efficient way to get water to mars, comet redirect would be better. But the point is that if people mindlessly throw themselves at mars, there will eventually be pockets of water underground (highly contaminated but we can deal with that in the Soilent green process) and walla . . . .water. Cometary water is not clean either, its got a number of contaminants that need to be cleaned up.

 

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

We should just find the button.

Now you see how realistic was this movie?

 

[Shpaget]

Is there any serious study regarding the amount of water needed for Mars to have Eartlike atmospheric conditions (in addition to all the gasses, of course)? The Earth atmosphere alone contains about 13000 km^3 of water, but that's peanuts compared to oceans.

How much would Mars soak up before any of that water forms a first puddle?

Asteroidal bombardment does seem like the only reasonable sourcr of water, but even if ww could redirect asteroids, it would still require quite a few of them.

[Green Baron]

41 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Is there any serious study regarding the amount of water needed for Mars to have Eartlike atmospheric conditions (in addition to all the gasses, of course)? The Earth atmosphere alone contains about 13000 km^3 of water, but that's peanuts compared to oceans.

None that i knew. Earth's atmosphere doesn't exist alone and is in constant exchange with bio-, cryo-, hydro- and lithosphere (yes !).

Quote

How much would Mars soak up before any of that water forms a first puddle?

Up in the thread I have linked a study that suggests that - besides being lost to space - an ocean worth of water could have been drawn into the martian mantle shortly after the time the crust solidified. That water would be mostly locked in minerals in depths between 0 and 90km, or might be present as pore water. Problem is that minerals from Mars that arrived on earth are dry. But these minerals are from a greater depth (100km, @PB666), ejecta from the Marsian boreal plains.

Quote

Asteroidal bombardment does seem like the only reasonable sourcr of water, but even if ww could redirect asteroids, it would still require quite a few of them.

Yes, but these processes ceased on Mars at the same time as they ceased on earth. Dust from space or impacts play no role any more these days.

We (or whoever feels entitled) would rather have to find a way to use the water that is there. But before that happens somebody should actually have a look, get a bunch of samples, have the samples scrutinised in laboritories. Remote sensing is nice but does not protect from misinterpretations or especially the "see what i want to see"-effect ;-)

Edited January 22, 2018 by Green Baron

[DAL59]

2 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Is there any serious study regarding the amount of water needed for Mars to have Eartlike atmospheric conditions (in addition to all the gasses, of course)? The Earth atmosphere alone contains about 13000 km^3 of water, but that's peanuts compared to oceans.

How much would Mars soak up before any of that water forms a first puddle?

Asteroidal bombardment does seem like the only reasonable sourcr of water, but even if ww could redirect asteroids, it would still require quite a few of them.

See nat geo's great documentary on doing that.  Mars has just too little pressure for water.  A slight increase could cause runaway greenhouse effect, which would be great for Mars.  

[PB666]

3 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Is there any serious study regarding the amount of water needed for Mars to have Eartlike atmospheric conditions (in addition to all the gasses, of course)? The Earth atmosphere alone contains about 13000 km^3 of water, but that's peanuts compared to oceans.

How much would Mars soak up before any of that water forms a first puddle?

Asteroidal bombardment does seem like the only reasonable sourcr of water, but even if ww could redirect asteroids, it would still require quite a few of them.

The earth is 6371000 meters in radius. Oceans cover 70% and therefore the surface area covered by oceans are 2.8 * π * radius². If we assume that the oceans depth is proportional to radius and sort of the average depth is around 3 kilometers on Earth you would need then say 3000 R_mars/6371000 * 2.8 * pi * R_mars²       = 0.0013 x pi R_mars3  R = 3,389,500     meters therefore you would need 1.6 x 10^-17 cubic meters of Sea Water (multiple by 1100 to get kilograms).
You could probably get away with less but it would be less substantive as a climate buffer. How big would a sphere have to be to contain that amount of water. That is 336.7 km in diameter.
So [drum role] assuming Ceres was 40% water by content, if your moved Ceres into Mars orbit, slowed it down considerably, it would have enough water and latent gravitational energy to Wet mars up.
The caveot that CO2 all over Mars would sublimate as well as the ammonia and other gases from Ceres, you would have a very toxic atmosphere to deal with. Terraforming would come to mind

Also NASA's PPO, your picture would be on the wall as public enemy number 1.

 

 

[DAL59]

MDRS End of Mission Summary
Crew 186 – Boilers2Mars
December 2017 - January 2018

Commander/Astronomer:  Max Fagin
Executive Officer:  Kexcrementsij Mall
Crew Engineer:   Melanie Grande
Crew Geologist:  Dr. Cesare Guariniello
Journalist:  Justin Mansell
GreenHab Officer:  Mark Gee
Health and Safety Officer:  Samuel Albert

Commander’s Statement

As Purdue students and alumni, Purdue’s heritage with human spaceflight is a heritage we all take very seriously, and that heritage was on full display for the duration of this mission. I am happy to say that every member of this crew has risen to the highest standards expected of would be space travelers, and I am proud of every member of this crew for doing their jobs with skill, effectiveness, professionalism, robustness, and the positive disposition that space travel demands of those who pursue it. I would be proud to call any of you my crewmates on a real mission to Mars.

When undertaking challenging journeys like this, I often find there are two types of travelers. First, there are the kind who are happiest when things are going right. The kind who love it when a plan works. The kind who revel in practicing, planning and simulating every facet of the journey beforehand just as much as they love the journey itself.

Second, there are the kind of travelers who enjoy a journey more when things are going poorly, because it allows for a chance to test their skills in the face of danger. They revel in being just beyond the margin and only barely in control, because the experience will leave them with a harrowing story to tell when they get home.

Personally, I’m in the first camp. I subscribe to the perspective that a stressful and harrowing adventure is a sign of poor planning. Things sometimes go wrong that are beyond our control. And during those times, true stories of courage and heroism often emerge, especially in space travel. But there is nothing to be celebrated in seeking such situations. Because of our desire for narrative satisfaction, it’s the near disasters that often become our most cherished stories, but those stories of right ought to be told just as much about the textbook missions, and the hard work that made them possible.

That is why I am so proud of what we have accomplished as a crew during our time at MDRS, and why I will remember the time so fondly. Our mission was productive, exciting, and educational, but it was never stressful or harrowing. It has been a privilege to command such a talented and driven group of people.

Thank you to Ashwati Das and the Purdue Mars Society. Thank you to Professor Porterfield, Professor Mitchell, Professor Horgan, Professor Grant, Professor Whitfield and Professor Dumbacher, and thank you to Erin Easterling and Brian Huchel. Thank you to Purdue Honors College, WIEP, ABE, SAO, and PESC. Thanks to the many Mars Society volunteers who have put in their time and hard work over the decades to make MDRS possible, and to those who specifically supported us on our mission: Veronica Brooks, Sylvain Burdot, Kevin Seidler, Kay Wolf, Jennifer Holt, Graeme Frear and Bernard Dubb. Thank you to Dr. Robert Zubrin and the Mars Society Leadership, and final thanks to Dr. Shannon Rupert for being our on-site support.

Boiler Up, Hammer Down!

Max Fagin, 01/02/2018

Our Mission, By The Numbers

12 days in sim
125 person-hours of EVA total time
24 person-hours of EVA rover time
138 km traversed on EVA
515 gallons of water consumed (including GreenHab)
~1700 photos taken
86 geological spectra collected
580 grams of edible crops harvested from GreenHab
636,445 strands of DNA sequenced from microbes found in the hab

Summary of EVA Activities
Max Fagin, Commander

We conducted a total of 10 EVAs during our mission (11 were planned, but light snow on Sol 9 caused it to be delayed to Sol 10). Our EVAs lasted anywhere from 1-5 hours, traversing a distance of 138km total and reaching a maximum of 6.2 km from the hab. A map of every EVA we took is shown on the next page, overlayed on the MDRS regional map.

Something like the electric rovers of ATVs are an essential part of an effective Mars surface exploration campaign. However, they must be considered in the same class as the rockets and spacecraft that delivered the astronauts to Mars: As means, not ends. The best field science is still done when an astronaut is on foot and able to devote their complete attention to their surroundings. As such, a goal of this mission was to minimize the amount of “unproductive” time spent on EVAs. This includes time spent en route to targets, and loading/unloading equipment. An EVA debrief was regularly held 1 hour after the EVA had completed with the EVA director who had been the habcomm for the EVA, and a careful timeline was reconstructed from the gps logs carried by members of the EVA. This allowed us to build up an accurate picture of how our EVA time was spent.

[Diche Bach]

No link?

[DAL59]

?

[Diche Bach]

5 hours ago, DAL59 said:

?

What was it that you posted up there? Looks like either a report from an academic/research group simulating part of a Mars expedition under controlled conditions else fiction?

[DAL59]

On 1/26/2018 at 10:24 PM, Diche Bach said:

Looks like either a report from an academic/research group simulating part of a Mars expedition

yes

[Green Baron]

http://www.marssociety.org/

.. is a private organization dedicated to the exploration and settlement of Mars.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Green Baron

[kerbiloid]

11 hours ago, Green Baron said:

exploration and settlement of Mars.

Spoiler

Is it sane to make such long flexible tubes instead of putting the modules close to each other?

[Green Baron]

Are these tubes or just a canvased frame ?

I am not sure about the relevance of the ting, but i do not know the details.

[kerbiloid]

I don't know, but I'm sure that any communications should be as short as possible.

[Diche Bach]

I would think one would want all human habitation modules under at least two meters of regolith?

1. Figure out good prospective sites for human outposts using remote sensing

2. Send robots to check those sites in detail

3. Send more robots to double check the short list of candidate sites

4. Determine a primary and secondary (and tertiary?) site for preparation.

5. Send robots to prepare the primary/secondary/tertiary sites

    A. Excavate all top soil down to a safe depth for the entire work area, and sequester said poisonous top soil off to the side somewhere

    B.  Drill verticle shafts down 3 meters and using blasting to open these up to 2meter diameter (maybe 2.5m or 3m diameter?)

    C. Build foundations and frames for airtight structures to enclose each opening

    D. Build any other support structures that will be expedient to have at the moment of astronaut arrival (base plates for solar arrays? various other ISRU modules??, storage for items that do not need to be kept safe from poisonous compounds and radiation? Fuel conversion?)

6. Drill a water well and make any other provisions necessary to afford the generation of breathable air

7. Deliver preliminary supplies, building materials, tools, and emergency redundancy materials to the site.

-=-=-=-

From my non-engineers perspective, seems like those are the necessary prerequisite steps which need to be completed before one can consider it "Time" to "Go To Mars." This way, when the astronauts arrive, they can set up their tents with the expectation that: as long as they work 18 hour days for a few weeks, they MIGHT be able to have safe underground structures built within a few months.

Of course, none of that really takes into consideration the possible debilitating effects of the trip to Mars, nor the possible degenerative effects of the gravity nor the ethical/practical rationality of incurring the inherent psychological/physiological stresses of people adapting to living on such an inhospitable hell hole for questionable reasons. With those issues in mind, I'd say it is more reasonable to forestall considerations of the "Time" to "Go To Mars" until our robotics, and budgetary constraints include:

-=-=-=-=

8. Some financial reason that suggests that people enduring life on Mars might generate sufficient profit to at least cover part of its costs. Not saying the scientific/adventure reasons are not (in principle) reason enough. But people cannot eat principles, and principles do not generate multi-trillion dollar long-term budgets.

9. Robotic teams that have finished building 75% complete fully hermetic, air-filled, clean, underground base complete with a two year reserve of clean water, multiple redundant air-scrubbing mechanisms and an ample reservoir of breathable air, a fully stocked medical facility, recreational provisions, and a farm that has already been through 3 sow to harvest cycles by its robotic caretakers and with the products properly stowed away in refrigerated safety and comprising something like one-years worth of reserve food.

 

BTW: given the obvious constraints and requirements involved, what crops are currently thought to be the best prospects for the small range of options that will be used to feed such astronauts? Cabbage and beans? Certainly not rice or potaos!?

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Diche Bach
Food

[PB666]

8 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

I would think one would want all human habitation modules under at least two meters of regolith?

1. Figure out good prospective sites for human outposts using remote sensing

2. Send robots to check those sites in detail

3. Send more robots to double check the short list of candidate sites

4. Determine a primary and secondary (and tertiary?) site for preparation.

5. Send robots to prepare the primary/secondary/tertiary sites

    A. Excavate all top soil down to a safe depth for the entire work area, and sequester said poisonous top soil off to the side somewhere

    B.  Drill verticle shafts down 3 meters and using blasting to open these up to 2meter diameter (maybe 2.5m or 3m diameter?)

    C. Build foundations and frames for airtight structures to enclose each opening

    D. Build any other support structures that will be expedient to have at the moment of astronaut arrival (base plates for solar arrays? various other ISRU modules??, storage for items that do not need to be kept safe from poisonous compounds and radiation? Fuel conversion?)

6. Drill a water well and make any other provisions necessary to afford the generation of breathable air

7. Deliver preliminary supplies, building materials, tools, and emergency redundancy materials to the site.

-=-=-=-

From my non-engineers perspective, seems like those are the necessary prerequisite steps which need to be completed before one can consider it "Time" to "Go To Mars." This way, when the astronauts arrive, they can set up their tents with the expectation that: as long as they work 18 hour days for a few weeks, they MIGHT be able to have safe underground structures built within a few months.

Of course, none of that really takes into consideration the possible debilitating effects of the trip to Mars, nor the possible degenerative effects of the gravity nor the ethical/practical rationality of incurring the inherent psychological/physiological stresses of people adapting to living on such an inhospitable hell hole for questionable reasons. With those issues in mind, I'd say it is more reasonable to forestall considerations of the "Time" to "Go To Mars" until our robotics, and budgetary constraints include:

-=-=-=-=

8. Some financial reason that suggests that people enduring life on Mars might generate sufficient profit to at least cover part of its costs. Not saying the scientific/adventure reasons are not (in principle) reason enough. But people cannot eat principles, and principles do not generate multi-trillion dollar long-term budgets.

9. Robotic teams that have finished building 75% complete fully hermetic, air-filled, clean, underground base complete with a two year reserve of clean water, multiple redundant air-scrubbing mechanisms and an ample reservoir of breathable air, a fully stocked medical facility, recreational provisions, and a farm that has already been through 3 sow to harvest cycles by its robotic caretakers and with the products properly stowed away in refrigerated safety and comprising something like one-years worth of reserve food.

 

BTW: given the obvious constraints and requirements involved, what crops are currently thought to be the best prospects for the small range of options that will be used to feed such astronauts? Cabbage and beans? Certainly not rice or potaos!?

 

Interesting video and loaded with information.

[DAL59]

8 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

ethical/practical rationality of incurring the inherent psychological/physiological stresses of people adapting to living on such an inhospitable hell hole for questionable reasons

Umm... they'll be considerably more comfortable than artic/antartic explorers.  Plus, they have communication with Earth.  Trials on Earth, like the simulation report I posted, prove that psychology is not that much of a problem.  Remember, nobody is being forced to go to Mars.   

8 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

nor the possible degenerative effects of the gravity

The ISS has proven for the past 20 years that 6 months of zero gee is survivable, especially since they only have to acclimatize to 40% gravity.  Gravity is not an issue, and even if it was, could be easily solved by tethering the habitat to the Trans mars injection stage and spinning.  

[tater]

2 hours ago, DAL59 said:

Umm... they'll be considerably more comfortable than artic/antartic explorers.  Plus, they have communication with Earth.  Trials on Earth, like the simulation report I posted, prove that psychology is not that much of a problem.  Remember, nobody is being forced to go to Mars.

This is patently ridiculous.

More comfortable? Forget to zip your parka all the way? Uncomfortable. Forget to zip your space suit all the way? Deadly. I could go on. Every single aspect of Mars is less comfortable than the worst places on Earth. You can be in favor of colonizing Mars if you like, that's fine, but saying stuff like that is just silly.

 

[DAL59]

2 minutes ago, tater said:

This is patently ridiculous.

More comfortable? Forget to zip your parka all the way? Uncomfortable. Forget to zip your space suit all the way? Deadly. I could go on. Every single aspect of Mars is less comfortable than the worst places on Earth. You can be in favor of colonizing Mars if you like, that's fine, but saying stuff like that is just silly.

 

Columbus did not have communication or clean water.  Mars is much harder than anything we've ever done, but remember, we went to the moon with 1960s computers.  We can definitely manage a Mars mission today.    

[PB666]

17 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

Columbus did not have communication or clean water.  Mars is much harder than anything we've ever done, but remember, we went to the moon with 1960s computers.  We can definitely manage a Mars mission today.    

He had lots of clean water, it was just salty. Columbus did not need communication, he need more power, if he had 16 times more power than the wind could provide, he would have no reason to communicate. As for definitely managing, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I don't see anyone making pudding, they are making drawings of pudding, but no pudding.