R&D Center Easter Egg? [WARNING! SPOILERS!]

[OHara]

17 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

Odd that the wiki would be wrong though.

Wikis are editable by anyone, and pranks and vandalism take much less effort than cleanup and creation.  The success of wiki's in general is an impressive indicator of human nature: more people are more motivated to do the creation and cleanup, enough to overcome the pranks.

The 'TARDIS' mention appeared six months ago in an edit that looks like a joke; one of us users (not Squad) will surely clean it up soon. 

[John FX]

15 hours ago, LordFerret said:

I don't see how a common police call box found all over England can be a copyrighted item... at least as far as the Doctor Who show goes.

See also...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton_TARDIS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARDIS

The police call box is not a TARDIS. They look different. OP stated there was a TARDIS, which would have copyright issues. If it was just a call box there would not be. I imagine the TARDIS looks different precisely so it can be copyrighted.

EDIT : Also from your link "The name TARDIS is a registered trademark of the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC). The police box design has also been registered as a trademark by the BBC, despite the design having been created by the Metropolitan Police.^[6] "

 

EDIT 2 : also from your links "Although the dimensions and colour of the TARDIS used in the series have changed many times, none of the BBC props has been a faithful replica of the original MacKenzie Trench model."

 

All this confirms that even a police box would need licensing if used in a commercial product.

Edited January 14, 2018 by John FX

[Starwaster]

19 hours ago, Geonovast said:

Or maybe it's just a perception filter for the non believers.

Have you counted all the doors on the VAB? Count them again... it will change your life...

[LordFerret]

On 1/14/2018 at 8:20 AM, John FX said:

...

And I see all of that argument as moot being the original design came from here in the US. The thing is Trademarked, which is different than Copyright. If merely having a trademarked image appear in something is an issue these days, then we're all sunk... that toilet for instance in the blown up VAB, it's a trademark also... and I suppose all the likeness of the rocket parts, gantry, runway, water tower, fuel tanks, etc etc etc etc etc.

Being the police call box over there is now referred in common as a 'Tardis', I can't see any argument of using an image of its likeness anywhere unless you make a specific issue that it is an actual Doctor Who Tardis.

Imagine the daily royalties.

 

Then again, we're discussing England here. How silly of me.

[John FX]

1 hour ago, LordFerret said:

...

I also see all of that argument as moot because your main point for dismissing my comment, being " the original design came from here in the US." is very wrong.

The original design from the USA for a police call box was literally a box bolted to a post with a phone in it, not a box you could walk into. Those were started in Glasgow although they were hexagonal and cast iron.

The blue iconic police box we are talking about was designed in 1929 by the Met's own surveyor and architect, Gilbert MacKenzie Trench. It is very much English.

The argument that it is another active companies intellectual property still stands be it trademark or copyright. They are still allowed to sue for unauthorised usage, which is the point. I have already addressed that Dr Who have registered the original police box as their trademark. Here is a website that describes the LMPD's attempt to claim the trademark and why it was given to the show.

I am quite interested in whichever company uses a toilet like the one from the destructed KSC as their trademark, like Dr Who uses the tardis as theirs. Which show does this unbranded image come from? The fact you know proves my point. Now name the company with a toilet as a trademark.

Let me know if you want me to completely disprove all your points in further posts although I am finding this conversation tiresome.

I can't be bothered but please imagine I made a dismissive comment about nationality as well, maybe something something colonies something.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

You can't sue someone for using a blue telephone box that may or may not look like a Tardis, so long as they don't claim it is a Tardis.

This is what's known as a "reference." Ie. I can make my own large, green skinned superhero who flies into a rage; so long as I don't call him "The Hulk."

Which is why television shows get away with lampooning other show's characters and/or tropes constantly.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[John FX]

You have to remember that KSP is a game sold internationally, as such they are subject to the laws in the USA, and also all the other countries they sell in.

What is legal in the USA may well not be in other countries. You may not be able to sue in the USA but you can in the UK, maybe other countries.

As such Squad still get sued if they use another companies registered trademark commercially.

This means they have to be more careful than if they only sold in one country.

There is no TARDIS easter egg.

[MR L A]

3 hours ago, John FX said:

You have to remember that KSP is a game sold internationally, as such they are subject to the laws in the USA, and also all the other countries they sell in.

What is legal in the USA may well not be in other countries. You may not be able to sue in the USA but you can in the UK, maybe other countries.

As such Squad still get sued if they use another companies registered trademark commercially.

This means they have to be more careful than if they only sold in one country.

There is no TARDIS easter egg.

This is in absolutely no way, shape, or form proof that the TARDIS does not appear in this game. There are plenty of references to it and similarly trademarked items in other games up and down the land, sold globally. 

A reason to not believe it exists would be if somebody has a peek at game code shenanigans and found no reference to it whatsoever.

[Just Jim]

I'm not sure if trademark or copyright on the Tardis matters. If violating copyrights were a big deal, we wouldn't have monoliths.

10 minutes ago, MR L A said:

This is in absolutely no way, shape, or form proof that the TARDIS does not appear in this game. There are plenty of references to it and similarly trademarked items in other games up and down the land, sold globally. 

A reason to not believe it exists would be if somebody has a peek at game code shenanigans and found no reference to it whatsoever.

I have to agree... Just because I haven't been able to get it to appear, doesn't rule it out completely. I just may not have done it enough times.

I wish I could access the game-code, I'd look right now. But I can't. And before anyone asks, no, I can't pm @Darth Badie, or any other squad person either... I already know she won't be able to tell me, even if she wanted to, without her getting into trouble... And none of wants that.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Just Jim

[Corona688]

On 1/12/2018 at 5:53 PM, GoSlash27 said:

I was never a fan myself. Found them cheesy and pointless. They do have a huge cult following tho', so I'm in the minority.

 Best,
-Slashy

Dr Who is old enough to have had several completely different target audiences from inception to modern day.  The modern version is cringy by way of over-catering to its fanbase.

[John FX]

16 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Just because I haven't been able to get it to appear, doesn't rule it out completely. I just may not have done it enough times.

To those who would say that the lack of any proof is proof of anything at all other than there is no proof, I remind you of Russell's teapot.

Russell's teapot is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion.^[1] He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong.

This means that if you assert there is a TARDIS at KSC the burden is on you to provide proof, and naysayers can just naysay until you do and that is the correct position. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove there is a TARDIS, not me to disprove it. Until there is proof, the assumption must be that there is no TARDIS.

 

16 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I'm not sure if trademark or copyright on the Tardis matters. If violating copyrights were a big deal, we wouldn't have monoliths.

Really, the TARDIS is a registered trademark of the BBC and if you, as a company, use it in your commercial product in the UK, you are breaking the law and can be sued. Even the monolith from 2001 must be licensed to use commercially, MGM IIRC licensed a company to produce 2ft tall monoliths to sell to collectors in 2016. In the USA, you can even use an image of the TARDIS, and call it such if you are exercising your right to free speech, for example as parody, but only within the confines of the USA. If you try to do that in the UK you will be sued. The laws of the USA do not override laws of other countries inside those other countries...

There is no right to free speech in the UK. We have laws that restrict your actions but no rights. As such there is no protected usage of other peoples trademarks without a licensing agreement.

Any company wanting to use a registered trademark in their product, be it the TARDIS in KSP or Marmite in a sandwich, has to negotiate a license from the holder of the trademark or be liable to be sued.

 

This is really getting tiresome. Please post links to back up your assertions, for example, here is one that says how owners of a trademark can defend in in court. There should be no doubt that the TARDIS is a registered trademark of the BBC.

 
The owners of a trade mark can legally defend their mark against infringements. To do so, the trade mark must either be registered, or have been used for a period of time so that it has acquired local distinctiveness (Prior Rights).The extent to which a trade mark is defendable depends upon the similarity of the trade marks involved, the similarity of the products or services involved and whether the trademark has acquired distinctiveness.A registered trade mark is relatively simple to defend in a court of law.

The Trade Marks Act 1994 states that "a person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses in the course of trade a sign which is identical with the trade mark in relation to goods or services which are identical with those for which it is registered" (section 10(1) of the Act). A person may also infringe a registered trade mark where the sign is similar and the goods or services are similar to those for which the mark is registered and there is a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public as a result (section 10(2)).

A person also infringes a registered trade mark where a sign is identical but the goods are dissimilar if the trade mark has a reputation in the UK and its use takes unfair advantage of, or is detrimental to, the mark's distinctive character or reputation (section 10(3)).

As such KSP, being an entertainment product, would infringe on the registered trademark of the BBC, being a TARDIS, because IMO the goods (entertainment product) are identical to DR Who. Even if regarded as not identical, KSP would still be taking unfair advantage (legally, unfair would be if they used it with no prior arrangement) of the distinctive character of the TARDIS and the reputation it has gained from the Dr Who show.

Remember, something only needs to be illegal in one place to stop Squad putting it into the game everywhere, for example an obscure law in China, France, or Italy. Just because you can do something in the USA does not mean you would not get sued if you tried to do it in the UK.

EDIT : It seems in May 2017 the BBC brought out a video game featuring the TARDIS as a main character. Yet another reason that a video game containing the TARDIS would infringe on their registered trademark as the products (video games) are identical.

Edited January 17, 2018 by John FX

[MaxwellsDemon]

I'm guessing it was someone's April fool joke/hoax that's getting propagated.  (Remembering how thoroughly I was drawn in by Scott Manley's "Jeb's Fishing Challenge" gag...)

[Rocket In My Pocket]

A list of references to the "Doctor Who" show, including the TARDIS. Some from the UK and some others appearing on the BBC. So..legal or not; it's been done and is being done as we speak, all over the world.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_references_to_the_Doctor_Who_universe

That said; there obviously is no TARDIS in KSP because no one has ever seen it or taken a screenshot of it.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Just Jim]

29 minutes ago, John FX said:

Really, the TARDIS is a registered trademark of the BBC and if you, as a company, use it in your commercial product in the UK, you are breaking the law and can be sued.

Woah.... Sorry. I'm not gonna get in a big ol' fight over this. It's just I see references to Dr. Who all over... 

Whatever... I'm out...

<Backing out of the conversation slowly>

[John FX]

1 minute ago, MaxwellsDemon said:

I'm guessing it was someone's April fool joke/hoax that's getting propagated.  (Remembering how thoroughly I was drawn in by Scott Manley's "Jeb's Fishing Challenge" gag...)

This is what I reckon as well. As an aside, I misremembered Russell's teapot as Maxwell's. That would be a far more interesting teapot.

 

3 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

So..legal or not; it's been done and is being done as we speak

So? That is true for many other things, for which you could get sued. That does not make them legal, or make them things where you are not in a position to be sued. I Imagine Squad are not wanting to break any laws though. Everyone knows things happen, prudent companies err on the side of caution and do not even allow the possibility of getting sued.

From your link "It's unclear how Warner Bros. would have been able to use the police box design legally. The appearance was not clearly parodic nor was it even historically accurate. The scene was set in America and the DC universe had never previously established the existence of British police boxes in the United States."

Your link confirms that to legally use the TARDIS commercially in the UK, you would need an arrangement with the BBC. The BBC being lax enforcing their trademark does not change the fact that you are liable to be sued if you use it in the UK.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

4 hours ago, John FX said:

Your link confirms that to legally use the TARDIS commercially in the UK, you would need an arrangement with the BBC. The BBC being lax enforcing their trademark does not change the fact that you are liable to be sued if you use it in the UK.

Commercially.

Fair use (Or "Fair dealing" as it's apparently known as) applies, even in UK.

Fair dealing in United Kingdom law is a doctrine which provides an exception to United Kingdom copyright law, in cases where the copyright infringement is for the purposes of non-commercial research or study, criticism or review, or for the reporting of current events.

Parody, caricature and pastiche

As of 1 October 2014, Section 30A provides for fair dealing as a defence in cases where the infringement was for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche.[26] The Intellectual Property Office suggests that a "parody" is something that imitates a work for humorous or satirical effect, a "pastiche" is a composition that is made up of selections from various sources or one that imitates the style of another artist or period, and that a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary and whether for a political purpose or solely for entertainment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law

(Also, why are we still talking about this lol? I think we all agree it's not in the game; so this whole discussion is kind of moot.)

Edited January 17, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[MaxwellsDemon]

50 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

(Also, why are we still talking about this lol? I think we all agree it's not in the game; so this whole discussion is kind of moot.)

But it should be, if it were allowable.  It would be killer to suddenly realize that Kerbal R & D was getting a visit from a Time Lord.   Presumably on the trail of the Kraken...

[John FX]

3 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Commercially.

Fair use (Or "Fair dealing" as it's apparently known as) applies, even in UK.

Fair dealing in United Kingdom law is a doctrine which provides an exception to United Kingdom copyright law, in cases where the copyright infringement is for the purposes of non-commercial research or study, criticism or review, or for the reporting of current events.

Parody, caricature and pastiche

As of 1 October 2014, Section 30A provides for fair dealing as a defence in cases where the infringement was for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche.[26] The Intellectual Property Office suggests that a "parody" is something that imitates a work for humorous or satirical effect, a "pastiche" is a composition that is made up of selections from various sources or one that imitates the style of another artist or period, and that a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary and whether for a political purpose or solely for entertainment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law

(Also, why are we still talking about this lol? I think we all agree it's not in the game; so this whole discussion is kind of moot.)

Then either it is a non commercial user made mod or it is a commercial exploitation and therefore not covered under fair use. The non commercial `fanfic` TARDIS is covered under fair use and would be legal. But then it is not an easter egg, it's a mod.

EDIT : Also, a TARDIS easter egg would not be `caricature, parody or pastiche.` nor would it be `for the purposes of non-commercial research or study, criticism or review, or for the reporting of current events.` are you even reading what you are posting?

We are still talking about it because you keep posting incorrect information and I correct you.  We have done that for a while now. If you do not post more incorrect information we can stop.

Edited January 17, 2018 by John FX

[Rocket In My Pocket]

3 hours ago, John FX said:

If you do not post more incorrect information we can stop.

If thinking you are right is that important to you, then by all means; I'll stop posting and you can go on thinking that. 

Spoiler

Fanart of a blue police box for sale commercially btw. Contact me in a message if you want to buy one, available internationally!

...I await my impending lawsuit with much trepidation. 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[John FX]

11 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If thinking you are right is that important to you, then by all means; I'll stop posting and you can go on thinking that.

I was just correcting you when you made incorrect or not relevant statements in your attempt to prove my statements wrong. I do not have any desire to be right and I will not defend an incorrect position but I will defend my statements when someone erroneously says they are wrong.

There is a very important difference. Now you have stopped we can stop this back and forth.

 

Spoiler

Your police box as fan art is completely legal, selling it is not legal even if your case is not pursued, which is not likely. Just because you will not be arrested does not make it legal, which is my point. The level of profit you will generate from that will be so small it will not be worth pursuing, unlike KSP, which HAS made enough profit to make it worth taking to court. Squad, even though it is unlikely, will not break the law to include a registered trademark of another company in their product. Once you have worked in a serious field, or have designed your own product you wish to take to market, you will understand that you simply do not take even that slight risk to your profits.

 

[Gargamel]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:57 PM, Geonovast said:

Although I do have to say, if you started with the first season of the reboot (with Eccleston as The Doctor), and quit before the season was done, I recommend powering through.  It gets much better when Tennant takes over.

This is the big sticking point for most people.   That first season was B grade all the way.   I didn't even like Eccleston as the doctor, and I wasn't even a fan when I started watching it.  But once the show finds it's way, it really gets good.  

[MaxwellsDemon]

12 hours ago, Gargamel said:

This is the big sticking point for most people.   That first season was B grade all the way.   I didn't even like Eccleston as the doctor, and I wasn't even a fan when I started watching it.  But once the show finds it's way, it really gets good.  

I hadn't seen much of any of the series other than some old Tom Baker episodes (and been confused by some John Pertwee ones mixed in) until just a few years ago-- the Eccleston ones started to draw me in, Tennant got me hooked solidly, Matt Smith sealed the deal, and I've enjoyed watching Capaldi.   I have definite favorite episodes from each, though I think overall I most enjoy the Matt Smith era.  I'd have to say my favorite episode has to be "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship," as it has nearly all of my interests in one package:  Ancient Egypt, dinosaurs, spacecraft, and sci-fi-- about the only thing missing is an American Civil War angle.  And it's a downright funny episode to boot.  (Who doesn't have a trowel?   Always wondered if that was a subtle nod to Hitchhiker's Guide...)   Certainly not the most dramatic episode or maybe not even best-written, but the fun quotient is through the roof for me.

 

ETA:  "I'm going to need a SWAT team ready to mobilize, street-level maps covering all of Florida, a pot of coffee, twelve jammie dodgers and a fez."   Best line since the Blues Brothers' "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

Edited January 23, 2018 by MaxwellsDemon
extra word removed

[Gargamel]

19 hours ago, MaxwellsDemon said:

about the only thing missing is an American Civil War angle

I'm not sure if their core demographic would appreciate most of the references. 

19 hours ago, MaxwellsDemon said:

(Who doesn't have a trowel?   Always wondered if that was a subtle nod to Hitchhiker's Guide...) 

I'm pretty sure I did see some 42 references in there...

 

[Archgeek]

Lively discussion of thrice-cursed international intellectual property law aside (I hate that they call it IP, that's supposed to stand for Internet Protocol, darnit), has consideration been given to the distinct probability that the timelord incursion may've been a mod's doing?  Mods have been known to introduce their own easter eggs from time to Timothy, after all.  The (module manager?) april fool's nyan cat loading screen, for instance.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Archgeek
Missed a preposition, there.