Star Wars Episode VIII (8) the Last Jedi Discussion

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, GoSlash27 said:

^ This.

And yeah, I thought Rogue One was passable. I just wish they hadn't lightened it up so much. The characters seemed awfully unconcerned that they were dying. Made it hard for me to care.
Of course, doing it the way I would've preferred might have narrowed the market too much.

Best,
-Slashy

Maby they thought it was for a cause? 

But this is true.

[DDE]

9 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Of course, doing it the way I would've preferred might have narrowed the market too much.

And that's the ultimate problem. Disney is extremely risk-averse and so are AT BEST going to just milk the established elements of the franchise. Is anyone else annoyed at the shortage of worldbuilding in TFA? Most of the stuff involved is a minor reskin? Where are my new toys?

That's partly because they just don't want to experiment. At all.

https://youtu.be/Kc2kFk5M9x4?t=49

Edited December 30, 2017 by DDE

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, DDE said:

And that's the ultimate problem. Disney is extremely risk-averse and so are AT BEST going to just milk the established elements of the franchise. Is anyone else annoyed at the shortage of worldbuilding in TFA? Most of the stuff involved is a minor reskin? Where are my new toys?

Exactly

[GoSlash27]

5 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Maby they thought it was for a cause? 

Perhaps, but even people who are dying for a cause don't tend to accept it with such equanimity. They should've made it more "real" by freaking out some, or trying to surrender, or going out in a blaze of glory, or commiting suicide.... something other than "Oh well, guess I'm dead now".
K-2SO was a pretty kickass character, tho'.

[DDE]

Just now, GoSlash27 said:

Perhaps, but even people who are dying for a cause don't tend to accept it with such equanimity. They should've made it more "real" by freaking out some, or trying to surrender, or going out in a blaze of glory, or commiting suicide.... something other than "Oh well, guess I'm dead now".
K-2SO was a pretty kickass character, tho'.

https://youtu.be/P3gf6qyAHOw?t=1260

Alright, I'm done for today.

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, GoSlash27 said:

Perhaps, but even people who are dying for a cause don't tend to accept it with such equanimity. They should've made it more "real" by freaking out some, or trying to surrender, or going out in a blaze of glory, or commiting suicide.... something other than "Oh well, guess I'm dead now".
K-2SO was a pretty kickass character, tho'.

Indeed

[DDE]

2 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

K-2SO was a pretty kickass character, tho'.

If your best character is a robot, you might have a problem.

Looking at you, Infinite Warfare.

[GoSlash27]

2 minutes ago, DDE said:

https://youtu.be/P3gf6qyAHOw?t=1260

Alright, I'm done for today.

Hahah see? This girl gets it!

Good one,
-Slashy

[tater]

1 hour ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Same thing for Star Wars. They don't like these Charachters because they are flat and have no development.

I'd prefer a more obviously female Rey, myself, or were you talking about something else?

 

I agree about Finn, I hated the whole Rose sideshow (that was her name, right?). And stopping him was absurd. The only issue of course is that we'd then not have him as a character if dead.

 

21 minutes ago, DDE said:

If your best character is a robot, you might have a problem.

Looking at you, Infinite Warfare.

In a SF universe massively populated by sentient robots, if some of the best characters are not robots, you might have a problem.

 

[Cheif Operations Director]

2 minutes ago, tater said:

I'd prefer a more obviously female Rey, myself, or were you talking about something else?

 

I agree about Finn, I hated the whole Rose sideshow (that was her name, right?). And stopping him was absurd. The only issue of course is that we'd then not have him as a character if dead.

 

In a SF universe massively populated by sentient robots, if some of the best characters are not robots, you might have a problem.

 

What are you asking me

[tater]

It was a joke.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, tater said:

It was a joke.

Ahh

Did you like my Aleternatife Plot @tater

[DAL59]

1 hour ago, tater said:

F-16s have targeting computers. I know what the interface is like from sims. I own and have read Shaw.  (I should add that I’ve actually flown a fair amount with a couple friends who fly)

I am not even trained enough to count as green, I’d need a diaper. Luke was in that same position. 

He did fly planes, and had a sentient droid to help him.

[ProtoJeb21]

3 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

VIII The Last Jedi                51

It’s probably mainly because of some fans whining about sand their lost theories and won’t keep their disappointment to themselves.

So uncivilized. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, ProtoJeb21 said:

It’s probably mainly because of some fans whining about sand their lost theories and won’t keep their disappointment to themselves.

So uncivilized. 

Or it's because the Charachters are aweful. What do we know about Rey. Some scavenger... their is no sacrifice. No heroism. All the Charachters are flat

They are called Main Charachters because their heros. The younglings were not heros hence not main Charachters. Now we get Main Charachters who are not the heros just some people. It inst Rouge One who is a group of nobodies it's the main episodes the Main Charachters should be heros.

[GoSlash27]

13 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

They are called Main Charachters because their heros. The younglings were not heros hence not main Charachters. Now we get Main Charachters who are not the heros just some people. It inst Rouge One who is a group of nobodies it's the main episodes the Main Charachters should be heros

Hell, the random nobodies in Rogue One are arguably more heroic than the main characters in TLJ.

Best,
-Slashy

Edited December 30, 2017 by GoSlash27

[tater]

35 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Did you like my Aleternatife Plot @tater

I was participating in the thread while cooking green chile stew, it was too long to read and cook.

Needs to be broken into easier to read elements, it's a bit of a wall of text. If I was rewriting VII, I would eliminate the entire star killer nonsense, the Death Star was already done. Twice.

VII gives no sense of how the Empire gets trashed at the end of Jedi, yet somehow the rebellion looks the same. Some exposition on that would have been helpful because it's an obvious question literally everyone asked.

As for Finn flying... he was a storm trooper, not a pilot, right? He is even less female than Rey (I'll keep pushing my joke), so I guess that makes him more of a pilot?

Bottom line is rewriting doesn't help anything. How about rewriting the 3 prequels so they are not terrible?

29 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

He did fly planes, and had a sentient droid to help him.

Flying != combat. Certainly it is a requisite skillset to be good at such combat, but it's not the same thing.

The point is hammering Rey over lack of training is silly when the same is not done with every other character. Luke is instantly good at the Falcon's turret. He quickly becomes OK with the little lightsaber training droid in the Falcon as well. How many minutes of training is required to "use the force" LOL. It's not like the trip with Ben took months.

Being rational about what is in fact magic is pointless.

Luke lets go and uses the force with the droid training thing, then to shoot the Death Star. Seems like the training is to let the force do the work instead of the person bending the force to their will. Maybe Rey is better at letting the force drive her with the fight scenes. It's not her, it's the force.

I used to play Traveller. I was really into it (old RPG from the 80s). Heck, I'm even credited in one of the editions. The canon had a very SW feel in terms of combat. When they added High Guard, a combat system for space naval actions, they created a game that massively rewarded ships that didn't look like the canon at all. Things like that make you look at something, then rationalize it til it fits. Many had to do that, why are they using the now canon battleships when they are guaranteed to lose badly to cheaper fleets of smaller ships just big enough for the right size spinal mount? I can manage that sort of rationalization with Rey, I guess. Not saying I liked the movie a lot, it was just OK. I say the same of most all SW movies, though.

I'm not a big fan of VII or VIII, but they are vastly better than EpI. I prefer Rogue One to VII or VIII by a wide margin as a movie.

I'd add that minus my kids, I would not have seen VII or VIII at all I think. Actually, maybe that's not true, because anyone other than Lucas doing it would have made me give it a shot. I gave him a chance with the prequels, and it was so irredeemably awful, never again.

Edited December 30, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

2 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Hell, the random nobodies in Rogue One are arguably more heroic than the main characters in TLJ.

Best,
-Slashy

Yes

4 minutes ago, tater said:

I was participating in the thread while cooking green chile stew, it was too long to read and cook.

Needs to be broken into easier to read elements, it's a bit of a wall of text. If I was rewriting VII, I would eliminate the entire star killer nonsense, the Death Star was already done. Twice.

VII gives no sense of how the Empire gets trashed at the end of Jedi, yet somehow the rebellion looks the same. Some exposition on that would have been helpful because it's an obvious question literally everyone asked.

As for Finn flying... he was a storm trooper, not a pilot, right? He is even less female than Rey (I'll keep pushing my joke), so I guess that makes him more of a pilot?

Bottom line is rewriting doesn't help anything. How about rewriting the 3 prequels so they are not terrible?

Flying != combat. Certainly it is a requisite skillset to be good at such combat, but it's not the same thing.

The point is hammering Rey over lack of training is silly when the same is not done with every other character. Luke is instantly good at the Falcon's turret. He quickly becomes OK with the little lightsaber training droid in the Falcon as well. How many minutes of training is required to "use the force" LOL. It's not like the trip with Ben took months.

Being rational about what is in fact magic is pointless.

Luke lets go and uses the force with the droid training thing, then to shoot the Death Star. Seems like the training is to let the force do the work instead of the person bending the force to their will. Maybe Rey is better at letting the force drive her with the fight scenes. It's not her, it's the force.

I used to play Traveller. I was really into it (old RPG from the 80s). Heck, I'm even credited in one of the editions. The canon had a very SW feel in terms of combat. When they added High Guard, a combat system for space naval actions, they created a game that massively rewarded ships that didn't look like the canon at all. Things like that make you look at something, then rationalize it til it fits. Many had to do that, why are they using the now canon battleships when they are guaranteed to lose badly to cheaper fleets of smaller ships just big enough for the right size spinal mount? I can manage that sort of rationalization with Rey, I guess. Not saying I liked the movie a lot, it was just OK. I say the same of most all SW movies, though.

I'm not a big fan of VII or VIII, but they are vastly better than EpI. I prefer Rogue One to VII or VIII by a wide margin as a movie.

 

No Luke was the best bush pilot in the outer rim and had blaster experience. Rey had a staff. Luke had trained before the movie just not in the Jedi Sense but as a pilot he had trained extensively. 

Honestly he was better than a Average TIE Interceptor Pilot.

 

 

Being he best bush pilot in the ENTIRE Outer Rim is a big deal. That Includes Ryloth... Ehem Hera Syndulla

[tater]

7 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Yes

No Luke was the best bush pilot in the outer rim and had blaster experience. Rey had a staff. Luke had trained before the movie just not in the Jedi Sense but as a pilot he had trained extensively. 

Honestly he was better than a Average TIE Interceptor Pilot.

This is patent nonsense.

The idea that any random recreational flier would be better than a trained fighter pilot is absurd unless you want to be wed to the notion that the Empire never should have existed due to incompetence. It looks like the Empire is the gang that can't shoot straight in SW because the main characters have to never get killed, so all the shots have to miss. They try to make it clear they usually hit (too accurate for sand people, etc).

Havign a staff, and being able to fight with it is a martial art. That's more than Luke would have had for sword fighting. I shoot fairly well, but I can't fence at all. The 2 skills are unrelated. Unless Luke trained with Yoda on the lightsaber for many, many thousands of hours, he's just magically good vs Vader. How long was he on Dagoba?

(and as I established mathematically, he necessarily is less powerful than Vader by a wide margin)

(because of the awful prequels)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&list=PL5919C8DE6F720A2D

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, tater said:

This is patent nonsense.

The idea that any random recreational flier would be better than a trained fighter pilot is absurd unless you want to be wed to the notion that the Empire never should have existed due to incompetence. It looks like the Empire is the gang that can't shoot straight in SW because the main characters have to never get killed, so all the shots have to miss. They try to make it clear they usually hit (too accurate for sand people, etc).

Havign a staff, and being able to fight with it is a martial art. That's more than Luke would have had for sword fighting. I shoot fairly well, but I can't fence at all. The 2 skills are unrelated. Unless Luke trained with Yoda for many, many thousands of hours, he's just magically good vs Vader. How long was he on Dagoba?

He wasn't Vader is a better duelist but you know he doesn't want to KILL HIS SON! 

TIE Pilots were not well trained. Luke was a very talented recreational flier with weapons that shot Wampa rats in the desert planet. As I stated he is a better bush pilot than anyone else in the Outer Rim. Most of the Star Wars franchise takes place in the Outer Rim. And Luke was with Yoda for longer than a few hours. Return of the Jedi is realistic Luke was more well trained by then.

See Ashoka Tano vs Vader or Kanan vs Vader in Rebels.

[tater]

7 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

He wasn't Vader is a better duelist but you know he doesn't want to KILL HIS SON! 

He should have not even been competent at all by comparison, no chance to do anything, a rag doll. Anakin/Vader had how many gajillion hours of experience with a lightsaber?

 

Quote

TIE Pilots were not well trained. Luke was a very talented recreational flier with weapons that shot Wampa rats in the desert planet. As I stated he is a better bush pilot than anyone else in the Outer Rim. Most of the Star Wars franchise takes place in the Outer Rim. And Luke was with Yoda for longer than a few hours. Return of the Jedi is realistic Luke was more well trained by then.

Says one guy, who is a Rebel pilot in a universe that you are saying has the following credentials for being a starfighter pilot:

1. badly trained.

or

2. completely untrained

Luke was just lucky, plus magic (the force). That's it. He was a pilot, and they were so desperate, that was enough for a suicide mission.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by tater

[Cheif Operations Director]

14 minutes ago, tater said:

He should have not even been competent at all by comparison, no chance to do anything, a rag doll. Anakin/Vader had how many gajillion hours of experience with a lightsaber?

 

Says one guy, who is a Rebel pilot in a universe that you are saying has the following credentials for being a starfighter pilot:

1. badly trained.

or

2. completely untrained

Luke was just lucky, plus magic (the force). That's it. He was a pilot, and they were so desperate, that was enough for a suicide mission.

 

Exactly but he had skill Rey

literalkynhasnt flown

[GoSlash27]

15 minutes ago, tater said:

the Empire never should have existed due to incompetence.

There's actually a lot to be said for that argument

Here's the mountaintop I keep yelling from: If you were to go back and rewrite the original trilogy so that everything plays out the same as these sequels but keeps the original characters.... you still wind up with a bad movie. Likewise, if you recast the original trilogy so that the new characters replace the old, you are still left with an epic movie.

The problem is in the writing. And the editing. But mostly the writing. The characters are not allowed to be interesting, and the movies simply don't progress adequately to propel the story forward. Touching on COD's storyline for a moment, it's not important whether or not fans can make a better SW movie than what we got. The professionals *can* make a better movie. They know how. They're just not allowed to.

 So yeah... Luke may have been woefully unprepared to be a fighter pilot, but (for all the reasons listed previously) it doesn't detract from his hero arc that he wound up making the kill- shot and limping home in his busted x-wing with his dead sidekick. Rey being in God mode from the very beginning *does* ruin the story. It's simply not the same thing.

 And while I get where you're coming from with the whole "suspension of disbelief" angle, there's only so far that can carry a fundamentally bad story. I mean... this could've just as easily been a WWII movie, or steampunk, or film noir, Western, whatever. Whichever way it is filmed, it's just plain a bad movie with poor pacing, flat characters, and stilted dialogue.

 Gettin' cranky in my old age

-Slashy

 

 

[PakledHostage]

48 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

No Luke was the best bush pilot in the outer rim and had blaster experience. Rey had a staff. Luke had trained before the movie just not in the Jedi Sense but as a pilot he had trained extensively. 

Errmm? Where exactly was that in ANH where we first met Luke? Or in any other film for that matter (other than the "shooting wamprats" line)? If fan fiction backstories count in favor of Luke, then why be so critical of Rey in the absence of a plausible backstory first being written for her?

[razark]

Rey obviously has some idea about the Falcon, since she has to explain to Han the ownership and modifications that had been done to it since it arrived on Jakku.

Other than that, do we ever see any evidence that she doesn't already have some flight experience?

 

 

And does any of this really matter that much, since it's a space fantasy in which the characters are going to do no more, and no less, than the writer wants them to do, no matter what experience and power level they have?

Edited December 31, 2017 by razark