Tucker Carlson-UFOs- Propulsion Systems

[Cheif Operations Director]

THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY

Recently on Tucker Carlson they had a former pentagon official discussing reports by navy pilots of fast moving speeds. They were, according to the tape preforming maneuvers that would be complicated with modern technology. Further they had a propulsion system that could not be picked up on infrared. Other than simply expelling a gas out of a tank is their a way that their could be a heatless propulsion system that could be exceed hypersonic speeds. My goal with this thread is to discuss ways we could have a heatless propulsion our self in the future.

No I don't believe in aliens

I'm not trying to start a UFO debate. 

Keep this on topic with propulsion systems please!

I'm a trifle bit stumped but I suppose I'm thinking with a rocket mind. 
My ideas could be a gas expulsion system with many small nozzles. these nozzles would be light weight seeing as their is no heat. 

My second idea is something that might use earths magnetic field but I highly doubt it.

[StrandedonEarth]

Gravity polarizer or anti-gravity. Nothing else known could generate enough thrust efficiently, without a heat signature. Still, hard to see how a craft could have any kind of power system without a heat signature, without waste heat, without cooking whatever is inside. Whatever it is would have to be operating outside the bounds of known physics.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, StrandedonEarth said:

Gravity polarizer or anti-gravity. Nothing else known could generate enough thrust efficiently, without a heat signature. Still, hard to see how a craft could have any kind of power system without a heat signature, without waste heat, without cooking whatever is inside. Whatever it is would have to be operating outside the bounds of known physics.

OK I know this violates the 2nd Law of Thermo but is the center top of the craft was tank with highly compressed gas that was released into a plastic rocket engine. Maby then have air ducts going into the central chamber. Do you think this could work? Not long term flight but for maybe a few minutes.

[StrandedonEarth]

I suppose if there was an ridiculously high-pressure tank holding metallic hydrogen, it may provide enough thrust for long enough...

Edited March 13, 2018 by StrandedonEarth

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, StrandedonEarth said:

I suppose if there was an ridiculously high-pressure tank holding metallic hydrogen, it may provideenough thrust...

Couldn't you use compressed nitrogen?

or maby just air compressed by helium

[StrandedonEarth]

It all comes down to how much energy the tank can hold in the form of compressed gas. The part of the theory that does work is that the gas would cool as it expands, but the pressure in the tank would drop rapidly. I don't know the formulae to calculate how much energy could be stored as compressed gas.

[roboslacker]

Here's an idea: A turbine driven by a massive spring

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, StrandedonEarth said:

It all comes down to how much energy the tank can hold in the form of compressed gas. The part of the theory that does work is that the gas would cool as it expands, but the pressure in the tank would drop rapidly. I don't know the formulae to calculate how much energy could be stored as compressed gas.

Fair enough. 

What about a system that used gravity assist, it is traveling at very fast speeds, if high enough...

Just now, roboslacker said:

Here's an idea: A turbine driven by a massive spring

How would that work? wouldn't the spring get stuck in the gears?

Oh, hmm that's not a bad idea

a piston, if properly powered could fire 1 and 3 pistons and then recharge the kinetic energy. while that is happening piston 2 could fire. Just solar arrays and a nuclear reactor could contain enough electricity to do it.

You might be onto something, can anyone prove it wrong.

All though I doubt it could get hypersonic speeds if even sonic.

[Bill Phil]

Not really. Heat's gonna be there. But lack of heat detection doesn't mean it's not there. Could be problems in the hardware or software of the plane. Could there be an advanced propulsion system with so much heat output that it overloaded the sensors? 

6 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

It all comes down to how much energy the tank can hold in the form of compressed gas. The part of the theory that does work is that the gas would cool as it expands, but the pressure in the tank would drop rapidly. I don't know the formulae to calculate how much energy could be stored as compressed gas.

It just so happens that pressure times volume equals energy, at least dimensionally (units, force per area times volume results in force-distance). Of course, the question then becomes one of efficiency.

[YNM]

9 hours ago, roboslacker said:

Here's an idea: A turbine driven by a massive spring

As with every free energy stuff !

2 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Could there be an advanced propulsion system with so much heat output that it overloaded the sensors? 

Zooming out is always an option.

 

Anyway, as always, cock-up before conspiracy.

 

[roboslacker]

Here's another idea: You have an aircraft driven by propellers, coated with a near perfect insulator. The interior of the plane has a normal (electric/combustion) engine, a small tank, and then the rest of the interior is a heat sink, liquid helium or something. The Plane would still be emitting heat, but at too low levels to be detected. Of course, this plane would only be able to operate for limited periods of time, until the  interior reached thermal equilibrium. But until that point, the plane would effectively have no heat signature.

[p1t1o]

8 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY

 

Perhaps not but it sure sounds like pure snake oil/pseudoscience. I do not think that there were any military pilots discussing details of black projects that flaunt known physics on Tucker Carlson, whatever one of those is.

A hypersonic drive that cant be picked up on IR? So I guess it magically stops friction and compression-heating too?

And thats on top of the fact that "heatless" is a HUGE claim for so many reasons. And thats on TOP of the mere fact that "hypersonic" is still a very loud shout on its own.

The first piloted hypersonic aircraft is ALSO going to perform "maneuvers that would be complicated with modern technology" AND have the physically implausible property of being "heatless"?

I dont think so, someone is telling porkies.

 

It may even be thermodynamically forbidden to move energy from one place (fuel) to another place (kinetic energy of the craft) without waste heat being produced.

 

Isp of compressed gas is terrible, it is not a viable propulsion system, doesnt matter what you do. Rockets work great because hot gas has tons of energy in it, the gas wants to expand fast.

Cold gas? Yeah pressure forces it out pretty fast, but temperature in the tank drops rapidly (to the point where it can start to liquefy the gas), which reduces pressure, reducing flow. Not to mention lack of energy in the exhaust. Its a very mediocre rocket.

High-pressure tanks are also heavy.

 

Metallic hydrogen can have an Isp of up to 1700s, which is pretty impressive for a chemical rocket, but still mediocre if you're talking about an aircraft (rather than a spacecraft), present-day airbreathing engines have Isp's in the 3000-6000+ range.

Metallic hydrogen is also not plausible to store at this point, not enough is known about its behaviour at low pressure. Storing it as gas-giant-core pressures is...not plausible.

 

 

So how would we go about hypersonic propulsion in the first place.

If its air-breathing, the concepts are well known. 

At hypersonic (Mach > 5ish) speeds, the temperatures and reaction speeds start getting in the way of the thermodynamic performance of your engine so you have to do things like cool the incoming air (Skylon/SABRE), introduce supersonic combustion (scramjet, X-43) or dramatically change the way the fuel reacts (detonation engines - faster reaction, more efficient energy release).

All of those are plausible - but not yet serviceable, and they all produce a LOT of heat.

I mentioned friction and compression heating of the fuselage before, this is difficult to get around, even at high altitude, the skin of your aircraft will get very hot. In most designs, fuel is piped through the skin to cool it, this heat is then "dumped" overboard when the fuel is burned in the engine. So even if your engine produces (somehow) zero heat, you still have to figure out how to cool your aircraft.

Resevoirs of liquid helium might work for a while, but I doubt its going to be of much operational use, if stealth is what you are going for. Wouldnt last long enough, or the extra weight reduces effective payload drastically.

 

So how do we fly at hypersonic speed, with a low IR signiture?

1. Fly in vacuum where there is no air resistance.

2. Do all your thrusting out of sight of observers and coast the rest of the way, avoiding heat signiture from thrust.

We just described satellites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[YNM]

12 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

A hypersonic drive that cant be picked up on IR? So I guess it magically stops friction and compression-heating too?

Or it's a cock-up.

12 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

High-pressure tanks are also heavy.

COPV ?

[p1t1o]

24 minutes ago, YNM said:

Or it's a cock-up.

Occam says this is a good explanation.

24 minutes ago, YNM said:

COPV ?

You want to run a cold-gas rocket straight from non-liquid gas store? Tank must be at a much higher pressure than that at the nozzle throat. Tank must also be very large to prevent significant pressure drop as gas is used. And this rocket want to be hypersonic? Tankage is going to be heavy.

I havnt done the maths, but if a hypersonic aircraft is possible with cold gas, without using magic (such as storing at a billiion atmospheres) then Im a monkeys uncle.

[YNM]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

Tankage is going to be heavy.

Nah, how does BFR works then ?

 

(i do get it that you get less and less thrust as the pressure drops for cold-gas thrusters)

Edited March 13, 2018 by YNM

[p1t1o]

20 minutes ago, YNM said:

Nah, how does BFR works then ?

Because thats liquid fueled rocketry if Im not mistaken?

[Cheif Operations Director]

2 hours ago, p1t1o said:

 

Perhaps not but it sure sounds like pure snake oil/pseudoscience. I do not think that there were any military pilots discussing details of black projects that flaunt known physics on Tucker Carlson, whatever one of those is.

A hypersonic drive that cant be picked up on IR? So I guess it magically stops friction and compression-heating too?

And thats on top of the fact that "heatless" is a HUGE claim for so many reasons. And thats on TOP of the mere fact that "hypersonic" is still a very loud shout on its own.

The first piloted hypersonic aircraft is ALSO going to perform "maneuvers that would be complicated with modern technology" AND have the physically implausible property of being "heatless"?

I dont think so, someone is telling porkies.

 

It may even be thermodynamically forbidden to move energy from one place (fuel) to another place (kinetic energy of the craft) without waste heat being produced.

 

Isp of compressed gas is terrible, it is not a viable propulsion system, doesnt matter what you do. Rockets work great because hot gas has tons of energy in it, the gas wants to expand fast.

Cold gas? Yeah pressure forces it out pretty fast, but temperature in the tank drops rapidly (to the point where it can start to liquefy the gas), which reduces pressure, reducing flow. Not to mention lack of energy in the exhaust. Its a very mediocre rocket.

High-pressure tanks are also heavy.

 

Metallic hydrogen can have an Isp of up to 1700s, which is pretty impressive for a chemical rocket, but still mediocre if you're talking about an aircraft (rather than a spacecraft), present-day airbreathing engines have Isp's in the 3000-6000+ range.

Metallic hydrogen is also not plausible to store at this point, not enough is known about its behaviour at low pressure. Storing it as gas-giant-core pressures is...not plausible.

 

 

So how would we go about hypersonic propulsion in the first place.

If its air-breathing, the concepts are well known. 

At hypersonic (Mach > 5ish) speeds, the temperatures and reaction speeds start getting in the way of the thermodynamic performance of your engine so you have to do things like cool the incoming air (Skylon/SABRE), introduce supersonic combustion (scramjet, X-43) or dramatically change the way the fuel reacts (detonation engines - faster reaction, more efficient energy release).

All of those are plausible - but not yet serviceable, and they all produce a LOT of heat.

I mentioned friction and compression heating of the fuselage before, this is difficult to get around, even at high altitude, the skin of your aircraft will get very hot. In most designs, fuel is piped through the skin to cool it, this heat is then "dumped" overboard when the fuel is burned in the engine. So even if your engine produces (somehow) zero heat, you still have to figure out how to cool your aircraft.

Resevoirs of liquid helium might work for a while, but I doubt its going to be of much operational use, if stealth is what you are going for. Wouldnt last long enough, or the extra weight reduces effective payload drastically.

 

So how do we fly at hypersonic speed, with a low IR signiture?

1. Fly in vacuum where there is no air resistance.

2. Do all your thrusting out of sight of observers and coast the rest of the way, avoiding heat signiture from thrust.

We just described satellites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything you said with me saying "in is not a conspiracy theory" is why I posted it'll try to find a solution to the problem.

[p1t1o]

6 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Everything you said with me saying "in is not a conspiracy theory" is why I posted it'll try to find a solution to the problem.

That doesnt stop the initial claim (not made by you, I know) from being pure hokum.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

No known physical law forbids the craft atoms fluctuate simultaneously in the same direction.
This is just an event with low probability.

So, a board engineer sits in the cabin and plays online poker, trying the chance.
The more lucky is the engineer - the faster flies the plane.

 

[YNM]

7 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Because thats liquid fueled rocketry if Im not mistaken?

Constantly boiling liquid, which is more or less high-pressure fluid.

7 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

So, a board engineer sits in the cabin and plays online poker, trying the chance.
The more lucky is the engineer - the faster flies the plane.

Ah, the Bistromath ! It's just the "pokermath" XD

Edited March 13, 2018 by YNM

[Cheif Operations Director]

Anyone have any solutions? 

I think the compressed gas or liquid is the best ideas so far and many the turbine spring.

[StrandedonEarth]

20 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I think the compressed gas or liquid is the best ideas so far

Aside from the impossibly high pressures required, which requires extremely heavy tanks, or tanks made of miraclematerialium

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, StrandedonEarth said:

Aside from the impossibly high pressures required, which requires extremely heavy tanks, or tanks made of miraclematerialium

True true.  the bottom end the crew cabin and the top as a ballon that's reinforced and represurized with momentum might work. Again a giant tank that big and a few small thrusters.

[DDE]

On ‎13‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 3:49 PM, p1t1o said:

A hypersonic drive that cant be picked up on IR? So I guess it magically stops friction and compression-heating too?

And that's where the discussion should have ended. The last generation of IR missiles does not in any way rely on detecting the aircraft's propulsion system.

[p1t1o]

18 hours ago, YNM said:

Constantly boiling liquid, which is more or less high-pressure fluid.

mmmmmyeaaahh sort of, its still a very different regime.