TKS/VA space craft nose section

[Jestersage]

Place it here as it's more of the craft information.

How is the thruster positioned in the VA/TKS' nose section? Does the nozzle aim toward the pointy-side (basically Vostok retro thruster), or does it flare out toward the wide side (I do notice there are nozzle angled outward toward the wide side)?

 

[NSEP]

12 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

Place it here as it's more of the craft information.

How is the thruster positioned in the VA/TKS' nose section? Does the nozzle aim toward the pointy-side (basically Vostok retro thruster), or does it flare out toward the wide side (I do notice there are nozzle angled outward toward the wide side)?

 

The retro/LES thruster aims towards the pointy-side, and the RCS towards the side. I think.

[tater]

http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=TKS+VA+nose+section

 

[Jestersage]

Just now, tater said:

http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=TKS+VA+nose+section

 

Not helpful. Already did that. Picture seems to be conflicting due to the four nozzle pointing toward wider end, but also read some information about VA being upside down. All diagrams just mentioned "braking engine", "RCS", with no indication of how it actually works.

[tater]

It's pretty clear what's going on. You can see 2 of 4 nozzles in this (and most) images. What is hard to understand? It;s "backwards" in that the motors are at the top. Point heatshield forwards (prograde), fire engines on top.

 

[Jestersage]

I was looking at https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/166383-tks-better-pictures/&do=findComment&comment=3191835

Specifically, it mentioned: 

" 2x1 "engines of correction and approaching", "DKS" — at "zenith" (i.e. "top") and "nadir" (i.e."bottom") sides of the ship, thrust 447 kgf (not kN!) each. "Main" engines."

and also

"Rear" and "front" sides of TKS are confusing. The VA capsule is indeed the rear side of the ship, it starts with its rear side up.
"Front" part (from orbital pov) is what you can see on this photo, biconical 4m-wide compartment).
Wide (4m) side - front, narrow (3 m) side - rear. VA - at the rear.

Which can be seen in here:

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Jestersage

[MaxwellsDemon]

Are you talking about the engines on the main TKS body?   Those would be located approximately where 14/15 are on that diagram (but on top and bottom-- and they're not represented at all on that particular diagram).

Reference that may be of assistance:  https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/shuttle-mir/references/r-documents-mirhh.htm , see pages 155 ff.

hm.   I see that the engines aren't labeled on those diagrams.  If you look at the FGB diagram on page 155 (figure 3-2), one of the engines can be seen on top, between the two radiator panels.

Edited March 19, 2018 by MaxwellsDemon
Addition

[Jestersage]

 

1 minute ago, MaxwellsDemon said:

Are you talking about the engines on the main TKS body?   Those would be located approximately where 14/15 are on that diagram (but on top and bottom-- and they're not represented at all on that particular diagram).

Thank you for the response. I am looking at the two nozzle looking like object at the very tip of the above line diagram. Not sure if they are deorbiting engines or RCS nozzles.

It is precisely because it's so much easier to make a VA either way that really made me think. In KSP, I managed to make a VA with the puller configuration (nozzle pointing toward wide end) that actually lift the thing off with only 3 Cub nozzles from MH, with 1100 dv at Sea level.

[kerbiloid]

19 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

" 2x1 "engines of correction and approaching", "DKS" — at "zenith" (i.e. "top") and "nadir" (i.e."bottom") sides of the ship, thrust 447 kgf (not kN!) each. "Main" engines.

Number 3 on picture. But this is not VA, this is FGB.

Spoiler

Their plumes blow to the left (on picture).

Besides the TKS launch with rear end up, in orbit it operates like any normal craft. Cabin to the right, engines to the left on picture.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[MaxwellsDemon]

1 minute ago, Jestersage said:

 

Thank you for the response. I am looking at the two nozzle looking like object at the very tip of the above line diagram. Not sure if they are deorbiting engines or RCS nozzles.

Oh, I see what you're referring to.

I don't have anything with me at this moment that can give me that info on the Merkur part of the TKS (I'm at the office--- shh, don't tell the boss) but once I get home I have some references I can check.

[kerbiloid]

4 minutes ago, MaxwellsDemon said:

Merkur part of the TKS

There was no "Merkur" part in TKS. It is VA (Vozvrashchayemiy Apparat, Return Craft).
"Merkur" is a misheard lyrics. When an American journalist asked Soviet space engineer at some exhibition, he replied something like "it's like your Mercury" meaning its shape.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Jestersage]

5 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Their plumes blow to the left (on picture).

Besides the TKS launch with rear end up, in orbit it operates like any normal craft. Cabin to the right, engines to the left on picture.

That is exactly what made it confusing by description instead of just picture. Because the nose is on the left. Seeign Soviet started with "pointy end containing thrusters" with Vostok, When one want to be as accurate as posible it is a bit confusing.

So how accurate is this KSP recreation for the VA capsule? https://imgur.com/a/UxVU8

[MaxwellsDemon]

1 minute ago, kerbiloid said:

There was no "Merkur" part in TKS. It is VA (Vozvrashchayemiy Apparat, Return Craft).
"Merkur" is a misheard lyrics. When an American journalist asked Soviet space engineer at some exhibition, he replied something like "it's like your Mercury" meaning its shape.

Really!   Okay, good to know.

[kerbiloid]

3 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

the nose is on the left

The nose is on the right. You can see two cosmonauts it the right upper part, right below the ceiling. It's the pilots' workplace.

On the left there is a return vehicle / escape capsule.
Unlike other ships the capsule and the cabin are not the same place.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[MaxwellsDemon]

Part of the difficulty is that the whole thing with the descent capsule has two directions it could be thought of as pointing-- sort of like the two-headed llama in "Doctor Doolittle."   In the diagram in Jestersage's post, the docking mechanism is to the right, and the return capsule is to the left... so when the vehicle is docking, the return capsule is pulled along with it "heatshield end first" relatively speaking.   But when the return capsule departs the rest of the TKS, it moves off the other direction.

[Jestersage]

Fine. let's call the slim narrow end of VA "tail", regardless whether it docks with TKS or not.

[kerbiloid]

42 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

So how accurate is this KSP recreation for the VA capsule?

If the itself capsule is from stock, this is just given.
But irl it shouldn't have large windows (only small round window in the airlock door and a sight right on the top front part of the capsule (against the pilot's eyes)).

Capsule's airlock is not open-close-open-close, it is not for EVA. Once closed on the launchpad after the crew got in, it stays closed until the landing.
So, they can't get away/get in. When the capsule is landed/splashed, either the crew opens the door from inside, and the door gets jettisoned away by springs (Apollo 1 fire ancestry), or a rescue team attaches a red thing from outside and opens the door gently.

The capsule is not the ship's cabin, they can't pilot the ship it from inside, they just can pilot the capsule itself to deorbit.
(Though the ship in fact doesn't need their piloting at all, as it is designed from scratch as teleoperated.)

So, a stock Mk1-2/3 capsule has a little common with real VA.

Heatshield is a part of construction and is not jettisoned, it's refilled with ablator on the earth.

(to be continued right now)

 

19 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

Fine. let's call the slim narrow end of VA "tail", regardless whether it docks with TKS or not.

 It's more "tower" than "tail". It towers above the ship.

Deorbit engine doesn't have RCS like on video.
Its quad nozzles arre at the top end of the cylinder.

RCS engines (3 layers x 4 nozzles) are in the cone below the cylinder.

(Btw cylinder and cone are two different parts and there should be a thin decoupler between them)/

Below and between the deorbit nozzles there are 4 short antennas. Expandable, but short.

Inside the bottom of the cone there should be a hollow with a parachute box and landing solid engine inside.

The chute is attached to the engine (thin vertical cylinder) from the top.

Once the cone is jettisoned (after aerobraking, at several kilometers altitude) the chute opens.
Right before the capsule touchdown the landing engine makes a short shot along the capsule edges.
Then the landing engine + parachute box assembly should be decoupled with a small separator below, fly away and crash.

The capsule has 3 hatches to get out after landing:
on right/rear side (120°deg clockwise from the front direction), the main door.
on top - an emergency exit, gets free after the chute and landing engine are jettisoned
on bottom - through the heatshield, that's how they get into FGB from VA

None of them can be used to EVA. No EVA by design at all. To get into space they should use the orbital station airlock.

 

FGB part on the pictures.

The fuel tanks are covered not with structural panels, but: upper ones - with solar panels (addditional, static, not expanding, just OX-STAT or so,)
The bottom tanks are covered with foldable radiator panels. A panel unfold after getting into orbit, this is how they cool.

FGB main engines (these  two on top and on bottom) should be moved in nose direction. On start they are covered with conical part of side fairings which is attached to the ring below VA.
So, nothing should stick out from a cones shroud.

Fuel tanks are a little shorter, ther back end is also not at the very edge of the hull.

RCS (4 units) should be on the left and on the right sides of FGB (90° to the main engines).
Btw, unlikely other capsules VA capsule itself has no RCS at all. The only RCS of VA is the cone part on top (it stays on capsule until aerobraking is over).
Don't forget to disable this RCS on launch, it isn't used in orbit. Enable it only on VA decoupling from FGB.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Canopus]

11 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Capsule's airlock is not open-close-open-close, it is not for EVA. Once closed on the launchpad after the crew got in, it stays closed until the landing.

Are you sure? Encyclopedia Astronautica says the return capsule would have acted as an airlock for the FGB.

[tater]

The thin "tail" is the nose.

[kerbiloid]

12 minutes ago, Canopus said:

Are you sure? Encyclopedia Astronautica says the return capsule would have acted as an airlock for the FGB.

This is only source telling this. And it is very likely that it understands wrong. On some TKS-derived modules there was an airlock here, maybe that's what they mean. TKS itself just doesn't need an airlock.

Btw on any photo of VA you can see an external red structure which holds the opened door. Because the door is to be jettisoned to allow the crew get away quickly.

10 minutes ago, tater said:

The thin "tail" is the nose.

The thin tail is the rear side.

P.S.
Btw I can't see on the reconstruction if there are two round windows in the wide, front side (where those two pilots are sitting below the ceiling). Above the docking port, in the wide green conical end.
Those windows are pilot windows to visualy control the docking.

P.P.S.
Think about TKS like this,

FGB is the ship. VA is the boat attached from its rear side.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Canopus]

https://m.imgur.com/j7IiTsn

good picture showing the main propulsion engines, next to the return capsule, and flight station.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Canopus

[tater]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The thin tail is the rear side.

On launch?

[kerbiloid]

3 minutes ago, tater said:

On launch?

On launch it is with its *donkey* up. Face down.
Once in orbit it never flies VA forward.

P.S.
On the end of the deorbit engine there should be two whip antennas to the left and to the right, and a docking antenna opening downwards.

Edited March 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

2 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

On launch it is with its *donkey* up. Face down.

Take that, xkcd.

[tater]

15 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

On launch it is with its *donkey* up. Face down.
Once in orbit it never flies VA forward.

P.S.
On the end of the deorbit engine there should be two whip antennas to the left and to the right, and a docking antenna opening downwards.

On launch, the pointy bit in on top, correct?