Air Superiority Competition Unlimited Re-Continued - Now in KSP 1.4 and BDA 1.2!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

We return by starting off the next Tier 1 series.

@dundun93's TFD 2.1 vs Viper-ASP MkIIc.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Battle Report:

Analysis:

TFD 2.1 is pretty much 'ASC: The Meme'. It's a TFD mixed with 50% more firepower than Gunbrick and the VampSquirrel MLRS PRD quite literally yanked off of one and plunked onto this.

This was probably one of the most un-fun battles I've had the displeasure of filming.

Now, let me clarify that I'm not mad that Viper lost; I could care less, honestly. It's #5, something is bound to beat it eventually.

But TFD 2.1 is less of a 'designed' aircraft than one that's just mashed together with extra excessiveness on the guns, which turns the game into a slideshow at times. It's also a showcase of how absolutely boring gun spam is. Do remember that when I first submitted Gunbrick, I wanted to be proven wrong, because it is really, really, quite dumb.

As for the actual battles, funny enough, it still could've gone either way.

You know the weakness of my aircraft? Like Viper? The merge.

You know what TFD was traditionally strong in? The merge.

You know what the VS MLRS PRD does? Remove the merge.

Congratulations, you almost played yourself. Except 16 guns is enough compensation apparently. Even to win the 2v3.

As for Viper, I'd attribute the loss to its lesser state of flight tuning and unrefined weapon ranges. It uses its Sidewinders, but not as much as PEGASys would, which, in the case of this match, would've been really helpful in avoiding the head-on jousting matches with a plane with 5x as much gun as it.

So yeah, TFD 2.1 moves on.

 

 

YEAH!!! the viper is finally OUT

It barely won though.

any more dogfights tonight?

[Box of Stardust]

1 minute ago, dundun92 said:

Once again, vulcan spam wins over a good design. 

I'm still deciding on implementing that Vulcan-to-tonnage ratio rule. Might do it if the trend continues poorly enough.

We'll see what happens with HogMaster to see if massive gun spam really is that big of a problem.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Box of Stardust said:

I'm still deciding on implementing that Vulcan-to-tonnage ratio rule. Might do it if the trend continues poorly enough.

We'll see what happens with HogMaster to see if massive gun spam really is that big of a problem.

Hehehe

[Box of Stardust]

6 minutes ago, dundun93 said:

YEAH!!! the viper is finally OUT

It barely won though.

any more dogfights tonight?

Viper isn't out yet lol. It's still #5.

You want the next fight?

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

TFD now has the honor of being the first Tier 1 under the Reserves system to get kicked so hard that it only takes 2 battles to finish off the series.

I'm also quite happy to say that this was a relatively quick and painless series to film since the TFD is a very cooperative aircraft in terms of tight formation flying (it must've taken me half an hour to get the last Viper match filmed because it just wouldn't fly correctly)

Pretty simple to answer what happened here.

TFD Classic is a slow aircraft. So what happens is that it gets routed, and then it's too slow to run away from the impending wall of doom.

Under the Replacement Rule, TFD 2.1 replaces TFD.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

Just now, Box of Stardust said:

I'm still deciding on implementing that Vulcan-to-tonnage ratio rule. Might do it if the trend continues poorly enough.

We'll see what happens with HogMaster to see if massive gun spam really is that big of a problem.

But, that ruins the challenge!  It's supposed to be unlimited! . Ah well... 

In my personal testing, I found a possible bug when I put off any Vulcan-armed aircraft against HogMaster. At ~2.2km, the enemy aircraft would suddenly break away, exposing their belly, and get hit by the GAU-8 fire. It happened against VulcanMaster, and the Gunbrick.

[Box of Stardust]

Just now, dundun92 said:

But, that ruins the challenge!  It's supposed to be unlimited! . Ah well... 

In my personal testing, I found a possible bug when I put off any Vulcan-armed aircraft against HogMaster. At ~2.2km, the enemy aircraft would suddenly break away, exposing their belly, and get hit by the GAU-8 fire. It happened against VulcanMaster, and the Gunbrick.

I mean, it depends on how many of us agree on implementing the gun limitation. I'm also all for it being an Unlimited challenge, but the most important thing is that the battles are fun and enjoyable. Not... slideshow-y and all about how can point their plane at the other guy first from 2km away.

I wouldn't be able to say the AI behaviors regarding that in BDA 1.2 since I haven't gotten around to privately testing the HogMaster.

[Piatzin]

13 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Once again, vulcan spam wins over a good design. 

10 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

I'm still deciding on implementing that Vulcan-to-tonnage ratio rule

DO IT!

Edited May 2, 2018 by Earthlinger

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun93's TFD 2.1 vs Gunbrick.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Passing a certain level of absurdity can apparently momentarily turn into comedy.

Massive amounts of gun spam, except Gunbrick loses effectiveness when there's no merge, and it's pretty much the same thing as the TFD battle. It's slow. Its only saving grace was having 10 Vulcans to throw 20mm back at TFD 2.1's 16, but that isn't enough.

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

@dundun93's TFD 2.1 vs Gunbrick.

 

 

 

  Hide contents

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Passing a certain level of absurdity can apparently momentarily turn into comedy.

Massive amounts of gun spam, except Gunbrick loses effectiveness when there's no merge, and it's pretty much the same thing as the TFD battle. It's slow. Its only saving grace was having 10 Vulcans to throw 20mm back at TFD 2.1's 16, but that isn't enough.

 

 

Yes!

Any more?

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun93's TFD 2.1 continues its upward climb, now facing off the bringer of the PRD-era of aircraft, @goduranus's Vampire Squirrel. Can it stop the onslaught of the bloated flying ASC meme?

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Missile usage.

So, finally we have a battle that's actually worth an analysis.

Vampire Squirrel is tuned in the way the inter-generation aircraft are in weapon ranges- these aircraft being Viper and PEGASys, two aircraft that existed during the merge era but persisted in focusing on utilizing Sidewinders. They came before the gun spam, which allowed them to pull off the things they did.

Vampire Squirrel, combining its MLRS pre-routing device and these mixed weapon ranges, had enough tools to combat the TFD 2.1. It had the PRD to stop the TFDs from advancing immediately, and it had Sidewinders to ward off head-on jousting, as well as get in some fairly important short-mid-ranged kills. It also has a max speed of 250m/s- it's not fast, but it's just about fast enough to make sure it gets where it needs to be before the enemy turns back in to fight.

TFD, while its gun spam could compensate to some extent, didn't have the environment which made it successful in the previous matches. In the Viper match, Viper was still tuned with too long of a gun range for fully effective Sidewinder usage. Compared to TFD and Gunbrick, it didn't have as much of a speed advantage in this match. TFD also had an issue with at least one pair of its guns not being set to fire at air targets only, a problem I suspected in previous matches, but only really shows here due to VS's MLRS...

It was a really tight match, but Vampire Squirrel pulls the victory out of this one. That ends TFD 2.1's series at spot #3.

@goduranus, this also gives the 2 victories needed for Vampire Squirrel to rematch against PEGASys at the location of your choosing.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Piatzin]

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

It was a really tight match, but Vampire Squirrel pulls the victory out of this one. That ends TFD 2.1's series at spot #3.

Even if it wasn't mine :D

[ZLM-Master]

Yopyop .

@Box of Stardust Just notice that you not enter my X-Fighter to the leaderboard ! ( Or i forget to submit it ^^ )

It's a micro fighter under the 5 Tons . This is the KSP 1.3.1 version , but it's ready for 1.4.X with tinny better perfs . ( V-TEK ready too )

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by ZLM-Master

[Box of Stardust]

4 hours ago, ZLM-Master said:

Yopyop .

@Box of Stardust Just notice that you not enter my X-Fighter to the leaderboard ! ( Or i forget to submit it ^^ )

It's a micro fighter under the 5 Tons . This is the KSP 1.3.1 version , but it's ready for 1.4.X with tinny better perfs . ( V-TEK ready too )

 

The X-Fighter is already in the queue for 1.3.1.

You can post the 1.4.2 versions though, and if you'd rather just have the X-Fighter fight in 1.4.2 right away instead of 1.3.1. V-TEK can have a second run if you changed things (and give it some variant designation to differentiate it).

I haven't decided what to do with changing versions on the board though. I guess I could modify all leaderboard aircraft at the end of the 1.3.1 queue when we switch over to 1.4.2.

[ZLM-Master]

@Box of Stardust

Oh ok  Good ! For not been confused , i update X-Fighter 3 & rename it .

I also a Missile spammer version , X-Fighter 4 with risky low range guns ^^

I tune V-TEK for KSP 1.4.X . It had well working for me

Edited May 2, 2018 by ZLM-Master

[Box of Stardust]

20 hours ago, ZLM-Master said:

@Box of Stardust

Oh ok  Good ! For not been confused , i update X-Fighter 3 & rename it .

I also a Missile spammer version , X-Fighter 4 with risky low range guns ^^

I tune V-TEK for KSP 1.4.X . It had well working for me

I suggest you just rebuild them for 1.4.2. Everyone needs to replace the BDA parts when they transfer the craft to BDA 1.2 anyways.

I'd really rather move on to KSP 1.4.x as soon as possible, since BDA 1.2 has some nice new improvements.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[ZLM-Master]

@Box of Stardust

NP , i'm want to switch to BDAc 1.2 too , more i test craft more interesting the game is . I begin to tune them , i link them when they finish .

Got some issues ( don't know for you )

- GAU gun won't shot at all .

- CM Chaff with wrong skin

- Torpedo explode onto water ^^ ( cannot drop them from an aircraft ) ( intended or not ? )

Not tested all part but globally AI seem far better . I'll check if there's a BDAc update , maybe a small patch !

Yep , so you can forget the last link because i've already re-build them in KSP 1.4.X . ( I also notice that a same craft is a bit better with last AI pilot )

i'll stay tuned !

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun92 How did you test HogMaster? I tested it in 1.4.2 + BDA 1.2, with classic Airfield-Island spawns, and they didn't turn in to engage at all.

[Box of Stardust]

In the ongoing quest to clear out the 1.3.1+BDA 1.0 queue, we're back to battles.

Meet the heaviest of the ASPEN Platform drones, Basilisk, equipped with its version of the then-latest in ASC tech. We called the VampSquirrel's PRD an MLRS, but now, here's an even more MLRS device- the Multi-Angle Counter-Rockets, Opposition Scatterer System; MACROSS.

Bundle of missiles vs Viper:

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Now Viper is out of the leaderboards and into the past records board, joining TFD mod A. It's been surpassed by an aircraft a generation and a half ahead of it in my design timeline.

Basilisk: essentially an even angrier PEGASys with 6 guns and a bundle of 9 Sidewinders with a fanned out firing pattern to rout the enemy, using 7 engines to shove all of that weight through the air. Also with more maneuverability.

Still, it doesn't have so many guns that it can wipe out enemy aircraft just by looking in their general direction. One is lost in a head-on pass, though it did survive for a bit afterwards, but I suspect the damage was unrecoverable from.

Out of the 4 losses incurred during the battle, 2 of those were from friendly fire lol. One of which was actually gunfire which 'technically' gave the Vipers enough points for one more futile sortie. Off to an interesting start.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

@dundun92 How did you test HogMaster? I tested it in 1.4.2 + BDA 1.2, with classic Airfield-Island spawns, and they didn't turn in to engage at all.

I tested it the lazy way (spawning both at the KSC). Lol. It was also a 1v1. Also, if you were to impose a gun limit, i think it should be an absolute limit for all airplanes (6-8 maybe?), instead of being based on mass.

 

Also, @ZLM-Master, turn off the pitch ki/increase dampening on your tiny drone to eliminate the oscillations. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Guest

[Box of Stardust]

Continuing the Tier 1 series, Basilisk faces off against Gunbrick.

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Basilisks find out that the Gunbricks are no pushovers, but the missile-slinging madmen beat them down anyways, showing the importance of having enough tools on hand to deal with threats as a dogfight progresses. Many of the kills were the third missile launched by a Basilisk, with the rest being guns or last missile.

The important thing to note here is how having more missiles gives an aircraft more chances to reposition against the enemy, and especially avoiding risky head-on attacks.

We go on to find out what happens when it has to face extreme excessiveness that comes with its own routing device.

 

 

29 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

I tested it the lazy way (spawning both at the KSC). Lol. It was also a 1v1. Also, if you were to impose a gun limit, i think it should be an absolute limit for all airplanes (6-8 maybe?), instead of being based on mass.

 

Also, @ZLM-Master, turn off the pitch ki/increase dampening on your tiny drone to eliminate the oscillations. 

Well, I was thinking about the rule from TFD 2.1's perspective when it was first revealed a month and a half ago. To have 16 guns, you'd need a 15.4t plane to begin with (if tonnage is inclusive). Sure, that's still not the mass of some 'normal' KSP fighters, like a lot of the PFC fighters we see; I'd bet most of the 'normal'-sized PFC aircraft are floating somewhere between 12-20t as set up. But that's still quite a large aircraft to shove around. It requires a little more engineering to do, plus makes it inherently more vulnerable.

Gunbrick wouldn't pass under that rule either; it weighs in at around 7t, but has 10 guns. Basilisk interestingly does pass though, at just about 6t for the 1t : 1Vulcan idea.

I'll hold off until we start doing fights in 1.4.2 to make the decision. I want this to remain as 'unlimited' as a challenge as possible. As well, the hitpoint system of BDA 1.2 might either make or break the whole gun spam idea (though testing actually indicates to former).

If all else fails, I'll figure out some good way to limit guns while still allowing gun spam to an extent, or the even dumber option, turn this into ASC 'Ultimate' and have a new 'Unlimited' where we quite literally allow almost anything, just like the very, very, very first ASC by inigma, and go full circle from having rules that developed starting from that competition. I mean, who doesn't want to see laser spam again... lol. It might be interesting to have turrets again... or at least turrets with incredibly limited traverse (like, say, 5-10 degrees of traverse possible).

The thing is, between a lot of the BDA dogfighting competitions around, we're still the least restrictive in terms of rules, which makes for a wider variety of craft. It's possible to make something really cool within a box, but it's a lot easier to think bigger if your box is also bigger and has the top open and allows you to think outside the box more. I like the other competitions with rules, don't get me wrong, but I want to uphold ASC's standing as the one that tries to go the other way. I mean, just look at all the funky stuff we've discovered because of our openness. AI quirks -> Air Jousting and importance of weapon ranges-> the outside of the box Vampire Squirrel MLRS to combat aircraft that can't be radar-locked nor heat-locked in time...

So yeah. If I do a gun limit, I feel obligated to find a way to circumvent that limit, in the spirit of an 'Unlimited' competition. And again, maybe the best solution is actually for unlimited guns to just be thrown into a new competition where we restart with almost no rules at all and see what gets un-fun.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Box of Stardust]

Basilisk goes on the offensive against ASC meme machine @dundun93's TFD 2.1.

We'll start things off with a preview for the theme of the battle.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Results:

Analysis:

So, I guess you could call it an unfair advantage, except we don't really have 'unfair advantages' here in ASC due to the nature of our competition and policy on private testing against queued aircraft.

It turns out top-mounted weaponry isn't exactly such a great idea, and that you can cause interesting things to happen if you fire your PRD first. Which in this case is causing TFD to suicide.

And from TFD 2.1's series, everyone already knows that it isn't really prone to killing itself with the VS MLRS.

But when TFD launches the MLRS while turning to evade... well, it probably whacks a missile or something during the turn, or maybe flares cause it trouble. I'm not really sure. All I know is that TFDs were consistently exploding.

Here's a bit of discovery from when I was testing Basilisk though:

There's a limit on maximum range that a PRD should be set to. Any farther, and the opposition regroups from the rout, making the PRD mostly pointless, and if they're armed with a PRD of their own, can potentially give them a chance to launch back.

The rest of the battle goes like Gunbrick, with missile utilization being possibly the primary factor in victory in the dogfight stage.

Basilisk will go up against whichever wins the results of the Vampire Squirrel vs PEGASys 5v5 Re-Advancement Rule rematches (which I'll conduct in the same battleground for convenience).

 

[SuicidalInsanity]

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

If all else fails, I'll figure out some good way to limit guns while still allowing gun spam to an extent

Comedy option: limit the number of ammo boxes. Sure, you can have 30 Vulcans, but those 650 rounds aren't going to last long.

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

 I mean, who doesn't want to see laser spam again... lol.

I dunno, as the guilty party for that particular moment of ASC fame (infamy?), and looking fondly back on the reactions the Solarius III caused, while watching the design paradigm shift to cope would be fun, lasers might need some limitation, even in an 'Unlimited' setting.

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Basilisk goes on the offensive against ASC meme machine @dundun93's TFD 2.1.

We'll start things off with a preview for the theme of the battle.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Battle Results:

Analysis:

So, I guess you could call it an unfair advantage, except we don't really have 'unfair advantages' here in ASC due to the nature of our competition and policy on private testing against queued aircraft.

It turns out top-mounted weaponry isn't exactly such a great idea, and that you can cause interesting things to happen if you fire your PRD first. Which in this case is causing TFD to suicide.

And from TFD 2.1's series, everyone already knows that it isn't really prone to killing itself with the VS MLRS.

But when TFD launches the MLRS while turning to evade... well, it probably whacks a missile or something during the turn, or maybe flares cause it trouble. I'm not really sure. All I know is that TFDs were consistently exploding.

Here's a bit of discovery from when I was testing Basilisk though:

There's a limit on maximum range that a PRD should be set to. Any farther, and the opposition regroups from the rout, making the PRD mostly pointless, and if they're armed with a PRD of their own, can potentially give them a chance to launch back.

The rest of the battle goes like Gunbrick, with missile utilization being possibly the primary factor in victory in the dogfight stage.

Basilisk will go up against whichever wins the results of the Vampire Squirrel vs PEGASys 5v5 Re-Advancement Rule rematches (which I'll conduct in the same battleground for convenience).

 

Honestly, two planes should be the limit per person. This seems a bit unfair that you have 3 airplanes on the leaderbord. I mean, you already have 1st place. What more do you want?

[Box of Stardust]

4 hours ago, dundun93 said:

Honestly, two planes should be the limit per person. This seems a bit unfair that you have 3 airplanes on the leaderbord. I mean, you already have 1st place. What more do you want?

Well, build a plane that can kick down Gunbrick and we'll be good. I don't have anything else in the queue that's really going to make it anywhere fast. CShRAID is just an entry for fun, I don't expect it to get pasf TFD 2.1.

7 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Comedy option: limit the number of ammo boxes. Sure, you can have 30 Vulcans, but those 650 rounds aren't going to last long.

I dunno, as the guilty party for that particular moment of ASC fame (infamy?), and looking fondly back on the reactions the Solarius III caused, while watching the design paradigm shift to cope would be fun, lasers might need some limitation, even in an 'Unlimited' setting.

 

 

I was thinking limiting turret traverse, but a lot has also changed with BDA since then, so maybe it's worth trying it all out again before we rule it out. But maybe we should test it all ourselves first, before we decide on setting up a separate competition for unhinged craziness. 

[Guest]

On 5/4/2018 at 6:22 AM, Box of Stardust said:

Well, build a plane that can kick down Gunbrick and we'll be good. I don't have anything else in the queue that's really going to make it anywhere fast. CShRAID is just an entry for fun, I don't expect it to get pasf TFD 2.1.

ok

@Box of Stardust, could I help with the dogfights today. ( i have 1.4.2)?