OHara Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) We used to could build custom cockpits using EAS-1 command chairs in cargo bays (or service bays or fairings). One source of examples is : In version 1.4.x the seated Kerbals are treated as if exposed to airflow and create considerable drag (bug tracker links). I would like to collect what we know about these here in the hope that the community can find a solution, through modding or ultra-specific bug reporting or both. Does anyone know of a fix or work-around? There is an option under alt-F12 to display aerodynamics data in each part's right-click window. The item "shielded: no" no longer (since version 1.3.1) changes to 'yes' when the part is shielded in a by, but the drag goes to 0.0, and drag details stop updating, for each shielded part. + The drag appeared between versions 1.3.1 and 1.4.1 and has remained unchanged through 1.4.3. Anybody know if 1.4.0 shows the problem? I speculate that changes related to the personal parachutes might have caused seated enclosed Kerbals to get drag, but this would not be necessary, as other aerodyamic surfaces are occluded inside cargo bays. Airbrakes and landing gear are prevented from deploying when in a closed bay, but EVA chutes can deploy while the Kerbal is seated in a closed cargo bay, maybe a secondary effect of failure to count the Kerbal as inside the bay. Kerbals with insufficient experience to parachute, or with all reference to EVA chutes removed from KerbalEVA.cfg,, still have drag. - Unrelated, it would seem, was the bug where fairings themselves had zero drag but failed to shield the often-blunt part to which they were attached (tracker links) appearing in version 1.4.2 fixed in 1.4.3. That bug affected fairings only, not cargo bays. + A similar problem existed in version 1.1.3 (bug tracker link). That problem affected landing gear and wheels as well. I speculate that it was caused by moving EVA Kerbals and wheels to their own Unity layer (to avoid the explosive interactions of version 1.1.2). Does any mod part use layer 17 or 27 and if so does it suffer drag when stowed in a cargo bay? Edited June 18, 2018 by OHara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xd the great Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Hmm. FAR will help i guess. Stock aero bugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gargamel Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 21 hours ago, Xd the great said: Hmm. FAR will help i guess. Stock aero bugs You do see we're in the unmodded sub forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xd the great Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Erm i suppose it is just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) On 6/16/2018 at 10:23 PM, Xd the great said: Hmm. FAR will help i guess. Stock aero bugs Now, this is a new bug, just appearing in version 1.4.x, and FAR is not released for 1.4.x yet. I am "collecting information so the community can find a solution" for stock because I fear the bug will get baked into the code if it is not fixed quickly, and modder fixes have pointed the way to stock bug-fixes in the past. It might be helpful to know if this bug affects drag in Ferram's mod. Users have compiled FAR to use experimentally with KSP version 1.4.3 (while Ferram finishes testing it for official release) so I tried it. (FAR is a very nicely-made mod; anyone interested in aerodynamics will love it!) FAR takes a different approach to drag on EVA Kerbals.FAR : any Kerbal in a seat is shielded from drag and heat, whether that seat is protected in a bay or exposed to the wind. KSP before 1.4 : any part or Kerbal with its visual center inside a closed cargo bay is shielded. FAR still uses the "Shielded: yes/no" flag that KSP formerly used to mark parts as shielded from drag. Does anybody know when KSP stopped setting that flag ? I wonder if KSP still honors that flag if we set it via a mod. That alone would not meet the goal. To fix the bug we need to have the cargo-bay-or-fairings find enclosed parts routine successfully find enclosed Kerbals-in-chairs and treat them as shielded. Edited June 20, 2018 by OHara test of (experimental) FAR with 1.4.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupcake... Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 On 6/17/2018 at 7:39 AM, OHara said: We used to could build custom cockpits using EAS-1 command chairs in cargo bays (or service bays or fairings). One source of examples is : In version 1.4.x the seated Kerbals are treated as if exposed to airflow and create considerable drag (bug tracker links). I would like to collect what we know about these here in the hope that the community can find a solution, through modding or ultra-specific bug reporting or both. Does anyone know of a fix or work-around? There is an option under alt-F12 to display aerodynamics data in each part's right-click window. The item "shielded: no" no longer (since version 1.3.1) changes to 'yes' when the part is shielded in a by, but the drag goes to 0.0, and drag details stop updating, for each shielded part. + The drag appeared between versions 1.3.1 and 1.4.1 and has remained unchanged through 1.4.3. Anybody know if 1.4.0 shows the problem? I speculate that changes related to the personal parachutes might have caused seated enclosed Kerbals to get drag, but this would not be necessary, as other aerodyamic surfaces are occluded inside cargo bays. Airbrakes and landing gear are prevented from deploying when in a closed bay, but EVA chutes can deploy while the Kerbal is seated in a closed cargo bay, maybe a secondary effect of failure to count the Kerbal as inside the bay. Kerbals with insufficient experience to parachute, or with all reference to EVA chutes removed from KerbalEVA.cfg,, still have drag. - Unrelated, it would seem, was the bug where fairings themselves had zero drag but failed to shield the often-blunt part to which they were attached (tracker links) appearing in version 1.4.2 fixed in 1.4.3. That bug affected fairings only, not cargo bays. + A similar problem existed in version 1.1.3 (bug tracker link). That problem affected landing gear and wheels as well. I speculate that it was caused by moving EVA Kerbals and wheels to their own Unity layer (to avoid the explosive interactions of version 1.1.2). Does any mod part use layer 17 or 27 and if so does it suffer drag when stowed in a cargo bay? If we don't have any joy with Squad next version, perhaps it's worth approaching the mod community to code a fix? Cupcake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) The change-log for version 1.4.4 mentions a couple fixes that might be related to the OP * Fix timing issue in startup of cargo bays sometimes occluding parts they shouldn’t. * Fix Kerbal (EVA) occlusion inside cargo bays, fairings, etc. but the tracker shows no response to the bug reports, and I still see the effects of drag when I seat Kerbals in cargo bays. Maybe I'm missing something, or was unlucky. Has the bug of this topic been fixed for anyone in version 1.4.4? On 6/18/2018 at 11:01 PM, Cupcake... said: perhaps it's worth approaching the mod community to code a fix? Looks that way. If no-one responds that 1.4.4 fixed the bug for them, I'll get this thread moved to "Add-on Discussions" this weekend. But really, KSP 1.3.1 is fine. Edited June 22, 2018 by OHara Kerbals in luge position have less drag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupcake... Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 15 hours ago, OHara said: The change-log for version 1.4.4 mentions a couple fixes that might be related to the OP * Fix timing issue in startup of cargo bays sometimes occluding parts they shouldn’t. * Fix Kerbal (EVA) occlusion inside cargo bays, fairings, etc. but the tracker shows no response to the bug reports, and I still see the effects of drag when I seat Kerbals in cargo bays. Maybe I'm missing something, or was unlucky. Has the bug of this topic been fixed for anyone in version 1.4.4? Looks that way. If no-one responds that 1.4.4 fixed the bug for them, I'll get this thread moved to "Add-on Discussions" this weekend. But really, KSP 1.3.1 is fine. Looks like the bug has finally been squashed, yay! Cupcake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Cupcake... said: Looks like the bug has finally been squashed, yay! No no. I was maybe too wordy. Bug still there in 1.4.4. ... for me, at least. If you are telling us the bug is fixed in your install of 1.4.4, tell us details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupcake... Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, OHara said: No no. I was maybe too wordy. Bug still there in 1.4.4. ... for me, at least. If you are telling us the bug is fixed in your install of 1.4.4, tell us details. I tested my signature craft in 1.4.4 and it seems to be working fine now. https://www.dropbox.com/s/3h7e9r8qmu2yeti/Vortex MK2_5 - Light SSTO.craft?dl=0 Using the aero debug menu I can see Kerbals are producing 0 drag while the craft in in motion. It also makes it to orbit with the same DV as 1.3.1 whereas before I couldn't get it to go past Mach 1. Testing done in 100% stock environment, I haven't installed anything except for MHE. I haven't had a chance to test the bug in cargo bays/fairings or the new MHE parts yet, but they should (in theory) be fixed. Cupcake... Edited June 23, 2018 by Cupcake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) Still draggy Kerbals for me, in a fresh install of 1.4.4.2215 (WindowsPlayer x64) en-us, both with and without the Making History expansion. I can get the Vortex Mark 2.5 into orbit, even with the Kerbal, but getting through the sound barrier takes a long time, much different than if I replace the Kerbal with a probe core. My test craft cannot cross the sound barrier with Kerbals in enclosed seats, in versions 1.4.1 -- 1.4.4. I'll give this a rest and stay with 1.3.1 Edited June 24, 2018 by OHara Now I see. A (quick)save and reload of the game state removes the drag on en enclosed seated Kerbal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) There is a workaround available in version 1.4.4. Make the EVA Kerbal board the seat, then F5 quicksave, F9 quickload, then any enclosing cargo-bays or fairings shield the Kerbal from drag. Edited June 24, 2018 by OHara reworded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swjr-swis Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 1 hour ago, OHara said: Make the EVA Kerbal board the seat, then F5 quicksave, F9 quickload, then the bug is fixed in version 1.4.4. I'm glad this explains the differences between your and Cupcake's experience, but I would not quite phrase this as 'fixed'. F5/F9 is not required in 1.3.1 and before to 'fix' phantom drag that should not be there to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewing Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) On 6/23/2018 at 12:29 PM, OHara said: Still draggy Kerbals for me, in a fresh install of 1.4.4.2215 (WindowsPlayer x64) en-us, both with and without the Making History expansion. I can get the Vortex Mark 2.5 into orbit, even with the Kerbal, but getting through the sound barrier takes a long time, much different than if I replace the Kerbal with a probe core. My test craft cannot cross the sound barrier with Kerbals in enclosed seats, in versions 1.4.1 -- 1.4.4. On 6/23/2018 at 4:06 PM, swjr-swis said: but I would not quite phrase this as 'fixed'. F5/F9 is not required in 1.3.1 and before to 'fix' phantom drag that should not be there to begin with. I put the kerbal on EVA in the cargo bay. I board the seat. I take the cargo bay most of the way to Mach 1 at sea level. There is no big drag arrow on the kerbal. The aero data reports 0 drag on the kerbal. I see no bug. We need repro steps, or more details. Are you perhaps sticking the seat directly to the side of the cargo bay? Edited July 5, 2018 by bewing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHara Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 46 minutes ago, bewing said: [1] I put the kerbal on EVA in the [Mk3] cargo bay. ... The aero data reports 0 drag on the kerbal. [2] I see no bug. We need repro steps, or more details. [3] Are you perhaps sticking the seat directly to the side of the cargo bay? 1) I noted on the bug-tracker that the bug was fixed for Mk3 cargo bays, and that we now have the F5/F9 workaround for other parts. 2) The links to the bug reports (18105 and its duplicate 18172) are in the top post. You need to register to see the bug-tracker, but you can register yourself easily. 3) The drag-reducing effects of cargo bays do not depend the parts being attached via nodes. Sticking the seat directly to the side of the cargo bay does result it in being shielded it from drag (after F5/F9 when applicable) so long as the parts to be shielded are visibly inside the closed bay. I opened this thread when Squad had made no posts to the bug-tracker items, and I feared they were not able to find time to work on the bug. Now the tracker is the best place for discussion so I'll ask that this thread be closed so we can keep the discussion on the tracker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanamonde Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Closed by OP's request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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