Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Death Engineering]

4 hours ago, Tabris said:

you still have to "ship" the same Mass, it just differs how you get that mass there. Ship it in (container of MaterialKits) or create it on site, (Drills, Smelter, Refinery, Assembly Plant, WorkShop). ( use MKS so my resource chain is LONG).

but thank you for at least having a look.

Had a look and while interesting, I'm going to stick with disallowing this mod. If for no other reason than because this came up in the OP challenge this one is based on, with this ruling:

"Extraplanetary Launchpad and other extra-Kerbin / orbital construction mods are prohibited. All parts must be launched from KSC."

[funk]

Great challenge reboot. Didn't try in the past, but when I read the mission profile, I instantly thought: "Finally I have a reason to try out an Aldrin-Cycler to Duna". I'm by far not sure how to do it, especially how to find the right trajectory. So far I was playing around with some flybys, but it breaks after some circles. I'm not even sure yet, if it is possible at all. But I'll try.

Q: If I use a SLV with different NPM, like an Atlas V with a different amount of boosters, will the minimum time between launches be different too?

[Death Engineering]

38 minutes ago, funk said:

Q: If I use a SLV with different NPM, like an Atlas V with a different amount of boosters, will the minimum time between launches be different too?

Nope. There is only one lifter and it has only one NMP.   

38 minutes ago, funk said:

"Finally I have a reason to try out an Aldrin-Cycler to Duna"

Very cool idea. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Death Engineering

[Kerbolitto]

I'm currently flying the first steps of this challenge, here is a little spoiler of what's coming up !

 

[funk]

2 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

I'm currently flying the first steps of this challenge, here is a little spoiler of what's coming up !

Holy!  I'm not into payload building, yet. But this looks massive! Did you launch it in one go?

 

My sunday afternoon was dedicated to a first iteration of a SLV:

Album a/oSvsDHE will appear when post is submitted

It's rated for 20t payload only, cause I think it should be enough for what I imagine as my future payloads. But it should be capable of more, when I've found out the best ascent path for it. And a boost back doesn't give any benefit for the challenge compared to a barge or whatever landing along the ballistic curve. Additionally the second stage has 1k m/s dv left before payload decoupling and my attempt to hover slam was on the safe side.

I tried a shallower ascent path but the time to maneuver the two stages is really short if you don't leave the atmosphere. Haven't played with physics range extender yet. @Death Engineering Would it be allowed to use?

Maybe I'll write a script for the SLV. But it all depends on what is really needed payload wise.

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by funk

[Death Engineering]

2 minutes ago, funk said:

I tried a shallower ascent path but the time to maneuver the two stages is really short if you don't leave the atmosphere. Haven't played with physics range extender yet. @Death Engineering Would it be allowed to use?

Sure. 

[Kerbolitto]

1 minute ago, funk said:

Holy!  I'm not into payload building, yet. But this looks massive! Did you launch it in one go?

Yes, my mission architecture is based on 87.5t. SLV so I'll do 6 launches, with a lot of parts for modularity and minimum weight.

This outpost required a lot of work, and also many hours to reduce weight while still being to fullfill all achievements.

I'll post the first batch later, I'm currently refuelling this whole "thing" !

[spacehead3]

Testing underway on my crew lander/ ascent vehicle. Because form > function.

[Death Engineering]

Seeing some great progress already from several space programs, with quite varied NPM selections as well!    

 

Making a little progress on my attempt to complete the challenge. Seen here is the first launch of payload to LKO (130km): A mobile Duna base/Lander, four satellites and a reusable propulsion module. Mass in LKO: 39.4t.

Next launch will be on day 280 and will carry a Duna shuttle, surface resupply lander with integrated emergency evac module. All payloads will be boosted by the XL-SLV, which features reusable SRB's and RTLS booster. It is capable of delivering 40t to orbit every 240 days.

 

 

[qzgy]

I think I'm well on my way in making the SLV..... NPM is likely to be 153 tons

So far.... I think its overkill.

Image of a test flight in a half complete state....

At this moment its ditching the cargo fairing.

[Blasty McBlastblast]

I've been testing some methods to move ground modules about, but i'm running into a problem where all my landing legs explode as soon as I dock/undock anything!  

Has anyone else encountered this or know of a solution?

[Kerbolitto]

Yes it happens sometimes .. Really annoying !

Another thing that also really bothers me are structural tubes (not 1.25, the new ones from Making History), they can't whistand a lot of pressure and radial wheels fall appart if you try to jump with a big rover ..

[michal.don]

In the process of my planning, I was a bit confused about the timing and durations of transfers/orbital stays etc. So, being an engineer, I created a chart

(A little bit zoomed in)

 

 

It shows the current date, days elapsed since the start of year 1, transfer windows to and from Duna, including their durations, the time before the transfer back, and the total time of the trip (values are from Transfer Window Planner).

 

If anybody wanted to use this as sort of a guideline, you can download it from my google drive here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zPdYU5moF3WAfoKv8qW9gRjxMHpfn63g

(there are four files - the complete timeline in .pdf and .jpg, and than there are two more files, which are formated for printing on an "A3" paper format, each featuring half of the timeline)

(Also, @Death Engineering, If you want, you may link the folder in the OP)

 

Michal.don

 

[funk]

3 hours ago, michal.don said:

In the process of my planning, I was a bit confused about the timing and durations of transfers/orbital stays etc. So, being an engineer, I created a chart

Great minds think alike I guess. This mission is the first time in KSP thinking about creating a network for the missions. Stuff I do on my daily basis, only costs and annoying customers are missing . And with your work I could've relaxed yesterday evening. THX alot!

 

9 hours ago, Blasty McBlastblast said:

Has anyone else encountered this or know of a solution?

It happens, when the landing legs are overstressed. Not sure, but I thought it's fixed in KSP 1.4.4. You'll either need the heavy landing legs or you could use e.g. airbrakes/beams as legs. As far as I see from your picture you're testing on Kerbin. For Duna you might get away with less stress due to gravitiy. "Hack gravity" can be useful for testing.

 

8 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

Another thing that also really bothers me are structural tubes (not 1.25, the new ones from Making History), they can't whistand a lot of pressure and radial wheels fall appart if you try to jump with a big rover ..

The strength of joints in KSP are based on the mass of the part another part is attached to. So the tubes are very light, every part connected to them will have a weak joint. Autostrutting might help. Or the best way would be to attach the wheels to another heavy part and offset them. For the pressure thing I'm not sure what you mean, but tubes don't occlude parts inside from airflow.

Edited July 16, 2018 by funk

[michal.don]

Alright, to stop spamming this thread so often, I started this thread in "mission reports". My designs and progress should start appearing there soon, hopefully.

 

[Kerbolitto]

1 hour ago, funk said:

The strength of joints in KSP are based on the mass of the part another part is attached to. So the tubes are very light, every part connected to them will have a weak joint. Autostrutting might help. Or the best way would be to attach the wheels to another heavy part and offset them. For the pressure thing I'm not sure what you mean, but the tubes don't occlude the parts inside them from the airflow.

I did know that mass could have changed anything about that .. I discovered autostrut after 800/900h /played and it was quite a game changer :p

By pressure I meant structural forces. Also I learnt the hard way about drag inside those parts, I tried multiple times to fly a large SSTO with 5m. tubes as fuselage .. x_x

56 minutes ago, michal.don said:

Alright, to stop spamming this thread so often, I started this thread in "mission reports". My designs and progress should start appearing there soon, hopefully.

This is a very good idea, I'll do the same, already got 35+ screenshots and I'm still around Kerbin : /

[qzgy]

4 hours ago, michal.don said:

In the process of my planning, I was a bit confused about the timing and durations of transfers/orbital stays etc. So, being an engineer, I created a chart

oooohhh fanceh. I'm going to borrow this for planning if you dont mind. I was also going to create some timeblocked chart (which I might still do....) but this is a great resource. Thanks!

[Kerbolitto]

I copied @michal.don's idea and started a thread in Mission reports, to avoid having too much pics here and keep tracks of how everything develops.

 

So far I launched my first payload and threw everything around Minmus to refuel, it was quite long because of lots of encounters/docking, re-assembly, re-orbit around Kerbin ..

I only broke 1 solar panel so it's not that bad !

Now the outpost is finally fuelled, back on a 160x160 orbit with approx. 1700+ dV.

 

Love this pic :

 

Also.. Tiny problem .. I just realised that Kerbin has 426 days each year, thought it was 400 .. !!!

Edited July 16, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[Death Engineering]

Updated OP with mission reports and thanks @michal.don for the great PDF's!

I thought @Kerbolitto 87.5t was out there until @qzgy's 153t ! Four launches and definitely not going to make a second launch by the second transfer window.    Good stuff, can't wait!

I do like the 20t approach by @funk. I did well doing the original challenge with 30t, but things were a lot different back then.  So many launches!

[funk]

3 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

I do like the 20t approach by @funk. I did well doing the original challenge with 30t, but things were a lot different back then.  So many launches!

After some more testing, my assumption, that the shown SLV is kinda overkill for 20t, was true. Now I'm able to lift 45t to 100x100km LKO with the same design, just optimizing flight path, no mods etc. 50t might be possible with a script or mod, its just 100m/s short to circularize in LKO.

From my plans for the first launches: 2x24t before the first cycler burns for duna is optimal. So 1x48t could be a thing, but I'm not sure which kind of payload would be that heavy (except fuel) and fits into the fairing (I don't like the kinda not streamlined fairings too much - just for the looks). Additionally I still need to design the payloads and plan the flights after year 4. Maybe there will be changes, due to optimization.

Further, when I looked through my crafts, I found a 18t payload F9 clone, that also could be used...

 

Edit: Totally forgot to ask @Death Engineeringabout the inflatable airlock, it technically could be counted towards habitation space, but most likely cheety. Will you treat it like the external seat?

Edited July 17, 2018 by funk

[Norcalplanner]

This looks interesting, but the OCD part of me wants to know if there is some sort of consensus regarding what is considered a "balanced mod".  Is there any whitelist or blacklist?  I would be particularly interested in thoughts regarding the following:

• Ven's Stock Revamp
• Bluedog Design Bureau
• SSTU
• The WBI suite (Pathfinder, MOLE, and possibly DSEV)
• USI-Core (particularly the reactors)
• The Near Future suite (Propulsion would likely be off the table, but what about the rest?)

Any info would be welcome.

[Kerbolitto]

After making some computing with dV requirements opposed to mission value points, I got to refuel 1 or 2 more times so I could extract as much dV as possible.

I may post it later after flying that damn ISRU :p

[qzgy]

14 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

Four launches and definitely not going to make a second launch by the second transfer window.    Good stuff, can't wait!

Huh?

If my memory serves right.... the 153 ton LV should launch just about once per transfer window.... Right? Maybe I'm interpreting something wrong.

But yeah big launchers. My favorite kind.

 

Edit: oh wait I guess you're assuming it's disposable? Ha. Hahaha *insane laughter here*. No I'm hoping to give it wings and make it reusable. Which should then make the second transfers window. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by qzgy

[Kerbolitto]

More mining yeaaaaah !

 

This time the ship is just short of 2000dV and I'm wondering if I won't push it to the limit and let the ISRU around Kerbin ..

What do you guys think ? I could refuel Nuke pods around Duna with the Dart-tug and small convert-o on the outpost, but I'm not sure on how long that would take .. I don't want to miss the first return transfer window.

[Death Engineering]

3 hours ago, qzgy said:

Huh?

Hehe my bad... I meant no second launch by the first window.