Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[qzgy]

Just now, Death Engineering said:

Hehe my bad... I meant no second launch by the first window. 

Ohhhhhhh......

Yeah thats never happening.

[Death Engineering]

12 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

• Ven's Stock Revamp
• Bluedog Design Bureau
• SSTU
• The WBI suite (Pathfinder, MOLE, and possibly DSEV)
• USI-Core (particularly the reactors)
• The Near Future suite (Propulsion would likely be off the table, but what about the rest?)

Welcome to the challenge! 

Ven' and BDB definitely okay. I'll check out the others, but probably okay as long as all craft/vessels are launched from Kerbin. I'm using another awesome Nertea mod for habitation parts and it seems well balanced. Likely the NFS would be similar. I'll take a look.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Death Engineering

[Kerbolitto]

Here's a little list of various thoughts on (agressive) orbital trajectories. This is not something I'm used to so if this may help someone or give some ideas it's cool !

 

Duna injection :

_Early departure, aiming the payload low the atmosphere, decoupling Nuke stage to orbit it later (which will be easier with no docked to it).

_Launching payload from Kerbin, decoupling Nuke pod, retroburn and re-orbit it near Kerbin while another Nuke pod grabs the payload when it approaches Duna's SOI, or let it drop directly in Duna's atmosphere.

 

Kerbin return :

_Very early departure (like 3k/4k m/s burn) with a huge nuke pod sitting around Duna (eg : after bringing a payload) with a little habitat on top, aiming low into Kerbin's atmosphere with multiple heat shields if necessary, orbit this nuke pod later or grab it with another one waiting near Kerbin.

 

What are your thoughts ? Since I'm playing full stock I'm not ashamed of burning far too much dV to get some more points

[Death Engineering]

51 minutes ago, Kerbolitto said:

Here's a little list of various thoughts on (agressive) orbital trajectories.

I like your idea of returning a propulsion stage back to Kerbin after boosting the payload to Duna 'Von Braun Mars Expedition" style. Probably use that for Minmus mining setup.  Catching it at Duna would be a neat trick..

[Kerbolitto]

11 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

I like your idea of returning a propulsion stage back to Kerbin after boosting the payload to Duna 'Von Braun Mars Expedition" style. Probably use that for Minmus mining setup.  Catching it at Duna would be a neat trick..

Well I did some quick testing when first designing my nuke pods, if you embark some fuel tanks on your payload which you empty first when burning from Kerbin, the nuke pod behind would have a low weight once decoupled from the payload and could also use the Mun to get down to Kerbin.

As of catching the payload in Duna's SOI, I did 3/4 tests with F12, it would cost approx 600m/s to get an encounter almost at the limit of Duna's SOI and 1200m/s to catchup if I remember correctly. 1800m/s is very little for a big nuke pod, mine got something like 6k+, so it would not be very hard to retroburn the payload around Duna.

You'd just got to launch 2 efficient nuke pods designed for your NPM and they'll be ready at anytime in both SOI with no transfer in between, after first transfer window & refuel of course.

This might work well with Minmus too but I think that you'd need a little propulsion system to set up encounters with the Mun imo, I always burn 100+ m/s because encounters are too precise from this height, at least with stock game and .. old interface .

There's so many ways to do this kind of stuff .. I should stop writing my ideas on chocolate cardboard and sort it out a bit xD

Edited July 17, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[Speeding Mullet]

I haven't had heaps of time to put to this in the last week, but I have moved forward with the basic design for my habitation modules and, more importantly, my Duna Elcano vehicle is now well developed and in final refinement iterations.  As its by far the most complicated aspect of my mission (it needs to be user friendly and easy to drive in a complete circumnavigation) I'm spending a lot of time trying to get it right.  I'll post some pictures later which are sure to impress.  All it needs now is it's Descent entry and landing system integration and it's ready for warehousing in advance of the mission proper.

SM

[Death Engineering]

On 7/10/2018 at 2:26 PM, Kerbolitto said:

By the way, achievements has to be fullfilled when year 10 starts right ? No need to rush as many as possible on the first launch ?

Thanks for this question and sorry I missed this. You're correct that the achievements have up until Year 10 Day 1 to be earned.

 

These are some more important clarifications for challenge end date:

• All SLV missions that are launched before Year 10 Day 1 count towards achievement points. As long as the SLV/payload is launched before Year 10, Day 1 it is part of the 'implement' step of the primary goal, but that mission must be successful in order to earn the achievement. (Note, there is a handy Duna transfer window on Year 10, Day 20).
• All Kerbals on the surface of Duna on Year 10, Day 1 must be returned to Kerbin safely in order to earn their Mission Value points. ('Over-stressed crew' 4 year rule applies)
• Document your 'mission architecture' in a post describing the launch schedule beyond Year 10, Day 1 which will keep the outpost active.

Others:

• Extraplanetary Launchpad and other extra-Kerbin / orbital construction mods are prohibited. All parts and spacecraft must be launched from Kerbin. Stock alternate launch sites are permitted.
• Fairings are not part of payload/NPM, unless they leave LKO. Any part that leaves LKO is part of NPM.
• If a Kerbal is left at the outpost alone for more than 10 days, they suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty.
  • This rule can be ignored once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved.

 

These are not rule changes, just clarifications. As always, lmk if there are any questions.   

[qzgy]

3 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

Fairings are not part of payload/NPM, unless they leave LKO. Any part that leaves LKO is part of NPM.

Wait.... So if I have an upper stage that burns the payload into a duna transfer, but then burns back to burn up in the atmosphere or into LKO as space junk, would that also be part of the NPM? Or would it not count since it technically doesn't leave LKO assuming the burns happen quick enough?

Also

3 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

If a Kerbal is left at the outpost alone for more than 10 days, they suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty.

• This rule can be ignored once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved

 

I thought this (the ommision of the overstressed penalty with those achievements) also applied to the 4 year kerbal mission time limit (see your post from a little while back) . Has that been changed? 

[Blasty McBlastblast]

@qzgy all "hardware and all fuel used for interplanetary transfers must be launched using the SLV" reads to me that the transfer stage must come as part of the NPM, no matter how quick you are!  

 

Also: yeah, has the rule on returning Kerbs changed? I thought they could stay on Duna indefinitely once you get the big four (backup plan, duna space station, duna space bus, and positive uplink) and so long as you could feed and house them?

[qzgy]

@Blasty McBlastblast that's true.....

But if I say it's an upper stage it would still be launched by the SLV. Right? So..... 

Idk. I'm gonna wait and see what @Death Engineeringsays on this. 

[Blasty McBlastblast]

lol I guess if you define "Low Kerbin Orbit" to extend slightly past Duna then it would be fine! 

[Norcalplanner]

I think the intent is that any part which achieves an orbit with an Ap greater than 180km above Kerbin is part of the NPM.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Norcalplanner
Clarified

[Kerbolitto]

I did use my SLV to adjust inclinaison relative to Minmus on first NPM.

Not sure about injecting to Duna with SLV provided it can boosts and retrograde before 180k Ap would be within the rules, this could change a looot of things .. ! :p

I don't think the return rule has changed, it's just that you can now leave a Kerb alone if there is some backup hardware to help him. It now allow you to do something like this : return 2 Kerbs on Kerbin, take one for an Ike mining mission (less than 10days) and leave the last one on the ground in the outpost, so it would be continuously manned.

[michal.don]

3 hours ago, qzgy said:

But if I say it's an upper stage it would still be launched by the SLV. Right? So..... 

Idk. I'm gonna wait and see what @Death Engineeringsays on this. 

While being a nice workaround the rules, I don't think this will work out - it would be a pretty huge advantage.....  

 

7 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

These are some more important clarifications for challenge end date:

• All SLV missions that are launched before Year 10 Day 1 count towards achievement points. As long as the SLV/payload is launched before Year 10, Day 1 it is part of the 'implement' step of the primary goal, but that mission must be successful in order to earn the achievement. (Note, there is a handy Duna transfer window on Year 10, Day 20).
• All Kerbals on the surface of Duna on Year 10, Day 1 must be returned to Kerbin safely in order to earn their Mission Value points. ('Over-stressed crew' 4 year rule applies)
• Document your 'mission architecture' in a post describing the launch schedule beyond Year 10, Day 1 which will keep the outpost active.

A couple of things occured to me on my "timeline", which I would like to clear with you.....

First - I found that the timing of the transfer windows causes this situation: you either quickly build the big four (Backup plan, DST, DSS, Positive uplink), OR the outpost will not be permanently crewed (One crew has to leave some time before the next one arrives) OR you'll have a bunch of over-stressed little green guys (in case the crew stays two transfer windows). Is this situation intentional, and the rules are applied to enforce quick "big four" implemetation or non-hohmann transfers?

 

Second - about the kerbals on Duna surface on Y10D1... I certainly am able to send them home afterwards, but if I send them before the next crew arrives, the outpost will no longer be permanently manned. Should I just do the normal crew rotation, or it doesn't matter if the outpost is empty after Y10D1?

Thanks,

Michal.don

[Speeding Mullet]

As promised here's a couple of shots of the Duna Navigator which I will be doing an Elcano circumnavigation of Duna with during my challenge entry.

I think this is nearly final form, although weighing in at 28t with all tanks empty, I'm either going to have to find some efficiencies, or slightly increase my NPM to a shade over 30t so I can package it in fairings (not essential, but in the spirit of my rules regarding aerobraking around Duna I require it).

It's a pretty capable machine, with ground tests on Kerbin showing stability at speeds over 90m/s.  At the front end we have a communications blister, detailed survey scanner and cupola command centre, as well as 4 braking engines.  Moving back down the land train, we have lower and upper decks.  Lower decks are engineering, made up almost entirely of an ore processing module which will serve to refuel the main tanks as we circumnavigate.  at the rear of the lower decks we also have 4 small engines to help the Duna Navigator up steep slopes, or when I get bored and want to go fast.  As going fast is extremely risky, there is also a parachute braking system in place for when I go too large.

On the top deck we have space for 1 in the cupola, followed by a twin sided airlock with access to balconies.  Moving back we have a secondary command module with a capacity of 2, followed by a large extending habitation module with flat screens, sofas, a kitchen, and living spaces.  Behind this we have a science module with capacity for a further 2.  4 Kerbals living in supreme comfort will be circumnavigating Duna in this machine.  Let's hope it is up to the challenge!

More to follow once finished

SM

[michal.don]

(Just one picture, couldn't resist, I loooove how my graph is coming along  )

[Kerbolitto]

14 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

 

• All SLV missions that are launched before Year 10 Day 1 count towards achievement points. As long as the SLV/payload is launched before Year 10, Day 1 it is part of the 'implement' step of the primary goal, but that mission must be successful in order to earn the achievement. (Note, there is a handy Duna transfer window on Year 10, Day 20).
• All Kerbals on the surface of Duna on Year 10, Day 1 must be returned to Kerbin safely in order to earn their Mission Value points. ('Over-stressed crew' 4 year rule applies)

So to make it clear, we now need a huge deep space transit ? I planned to let all Kerbals (likely 20 or so) inside the outpost with enough "food" for them to wait next ship to come after Y10 and resupply them.

6 hours ago, michal.don said:

I found that the timing of the transfer windows causes this situation: you either quickly build the big four (Backup plan, DST, DSS, Positive uplink), OR the outpost will not be permanently crewed (One crew has to leave some time before the next one arrives) OR you'll have a bunch of over-stressed little green guys (in case the crew stays two transfer windows). Is this situation intentional, and the rules are applied to enforce quick "big four" implemetation or non-hohmann transfers?

It depends on how you manage your outpost, if you add more modules this won't be a problem. You can send the second crew on second transfer window with big four, land the fresh crew on Duna, dock their module with your outpost, and avoid returning to Kerbin because you set up everything they need to stay past Y4.

6 hours ago, michal.don said:

Should I just do the normal crew rotation, or it doesn't matter if the outpost is empty after Y10D1?

Also yeah, I'd like to see how this is manageable :p

[michal.don]

8 minutes ago, Kerbolitto said:

It depends on how you manage your outpost, if you add more modules this won't be a problem. You can send the second crew on second transfer window with big four, land the fresh crew on Duna, dock their module with your outpost, and avoid returning to Kerbin because you set up everything they need to stay past Y4.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

The question was meant more like "is it intentional that it's not possible to have a permanently inhabited outpost with no overstressed kerbals, without using the "big four"?"

[Kerbolitto]

1 minute ago, michal.don said:

Yes, I'm aware of that.

The question was meant more like "is it intentional that it's not possible to have a permanently inhabited outpost with no overstressed kerbals, without using the "big four"?"

Oh sorry, then yes I guess you'd have to transfer the second crew before Y4 which is way more costly ! 

[Death Engineering]

11 hours ago, qzgy said:

Wait.... So if I have an upper stage that burns the payload into a duna transfer, but then burns back to burn up in the atmosphere or into LKO as space junk, would that also be part of the NPM? Or would it not count since it technically doesn't leave LKO assuming the burns happen quick enough?

I think @Norcalplanner said it better than I can: "Any part which achieves an orbit with an Ap greater than 180km above Kerbin is part of the NPM." Or put another way, the SLV cannot be used to leave LKO.

 

11 hours ago, qzgy said:

I thought this (the ommision of the overstressed penalty with those achievements) also applied to the 4 year kerbal mission time limit (see your post from a little while back) . Has that been changed? 

Nope, nothing changed. 

• Kerbals need to be returned safely to Kerbin within four years of being launched or suffer 'Over-stressed crew'. 
• Kerbals at the outpost need to be accompanied. They can be left alone for up to 10 days as long as there is another Kerbal within travel distance.
  • These rules can be ignored once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved. 

11 hours ago, Blasty McBlastblast said:

Also: yeah, has the rule on returning Kerbs changed? I thought they could stay on Duna indefinitely once you get the big four (backup plan, duna space station, duna space bus, and positive uplink) and so long as you could feed and house them?

No change. Kerbals can stay indefinitely once the safety measures are in place, however Kerbals need to be recovered (or at the very least recoverable) in order to earn their Mission Value points.  They cannot be stranded there without life support or a way home.

9 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

I don't think the return rule has changed, it's just that you can now leave a Kerb alone if there is some backup hardware to help him. It now allow you to do something like this : return 2 Kerbs on Kerbin, take one for an Ike mining mission (less than 10days) and leave the last one on the ground in the outpost, so it would be continuously manned.

Precisely. 

7 hours ago, michal.don said:

First - I found that the timing of the transfer windows causes this situation: you either quickly build the big four (Backup plan, DST, DSS, Positive uplink), OR the outpost will not be permanently crewed (One crew has to leave some time before the next one arrives) OR you'll have a bunch of over-stressed little green guys (in case the crew stays two transfer windows). Is this situation intentional, and the rules are applied to enforce quick "big four" implemetation or non-hohmann transfers?

The outpost must remain continuously crewed once landed. It may not be possible to do this without over-stressing at least one crew (intended).

7 hours ago, michal.don said:

Second - about the kerbals on Duna surface on Y10D1... I certainly am able to send them home afterwards, but if I send them before the next crew arrives, the outpost will no longer be permanently manned. Should I just do the normal crew rotation, or it doesn't matter if the outpost is empty after Y10D1?

Should be able to use normal crew rotation as part of your permanently-crewed plan. The crew on the surface earning Mission Value points does not need to leave Duna before Year 10 Day 1, they just need to have a way home. It is up to you if you "play it out" so that they do get safely recovered, but there needs to at least be a way for them to get home (be prepared to demonstrate or just fly them home).

1 hour ago, Kerbolitto said:

So to make it clear, we now need a huge deep space transit ? I planned to let all Kerbals (likely 20 or so) inside the outpost with enough "food" for them to wait next ship to come after Y10 and resupply them.

Please let me know if this is not addressed above ^^

55 minutes ago, michal.don said:

The question was meant more like "is it intentional that it's not possible to have a permanently inhabited outpost with no overstressed kerbals, without using the "big four"?"

Yep. For example, you can send four crew out with the intent on returning two and leaving two there for the next window. I'm planning on sending 5 out and returning 3 on the first return window and the other two will have to manage until the safety margins are in place. Oh well, space is hard.   

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I hope these clarifications didn't muddy things up for anyone.  As always, lmk if I missed something or anything else I can help with.

D.E.

[michal.don]

thanks, everything clear for now

Michal.don

[Kerbolitto]

3 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

Please let me know if this is not addressed above ^^

This is bad news, I'd have to dismantle parts of my outpost to return everyone home, I'd have to find a solution combining many nuke pods and mk3 passenger cabin imo.

[Alchemist]

I seem to have got a sudden urge to try this.

So, for the launcher I really want to use this first stage. It separates from payload/next stage in upper atmosphere on suborbital trajectory (parameters are 48 km / 1395 m/s  for the original shuttle made for it, but can be a bit different for the cargo config). Then it boosts back and... you see...

(Note: the launch sequence is fully kOS-scripted and doesn't lose LoS with KSC)

Now the payload capacity is a big question... originally this is used with a crew shuttle that after separation reaches LKO weighting (hey! no such thing in orbit!) having mass of almost 65 tons... and with just the Delta v to reach Mun orbit and get back.
Of course, that kinda equals payload + dry second stage. So for this mission profile I still need to design alternative second stage (reusable?) and test the actual payload capacity with it... (additional note: launcher return timing sets certain second stage TWR requirements)  Could likely be around 50 tons of pure payload or slightly more.

 

Some thoughts:

 

On 7/9/2018 at 5:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Mission Value:

• Calculated as: ("Kerbal days on Duna before Year 5 Day 1"  * 2 ) + "Kerbal Days on Duna from Year 5 Day 1 until Year 10 Day 1". 

So, the transfer window at the start of year 10 (with no more mission value to make or lose on new crew) is a good option to wrap a few achievements up (like the emergency takeoff), isn't it?
Also this scoring totally gives some incentive to stretch the transfer windows a bit

On 7/9/2018 at 5:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Crew members need to be recovered on Kerbin within 4 years of being launched or receive the 'Over-stressed crew' penalty.

• This rule can be ignored once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved.

basically, a good list of things for the second window if not to overstress the crew.

On 7/9/2018 at 5:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Early mission prestige: Safely return at least two kerbals to Kerbin's surface from a Duna mission before Year 5 Day 1. At least one of the crew members must have walked on either Ike or Duna and return a surface sample with them. (+2)

Now this makes me wonder what's the Delta v cost of overstretching the windows around beginning of year 4 into a quick there-and-back transfer for a return module (if there is such concept for Mars flyby, this kind of transfer profile should be usable for Duna). Although the late launch / longer transfer option soon after first window can be better suited for such package if not launched on time for normal transfer

On 7/9/2018 at 5:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Advanced deep space transit: If 'Deep space transit' is scored, it must support a minimum of 5 kerbals and refuel only in Duna SOI (travels from Duna -> Kerbin -> Duna without refueling) (+3)

And what about refilling the life support at Kerbin? Without it, running the reusable transfer vehicle doesn't have much point, if you still have to launch LS freighters separately

On 7/9/2018 at 5:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Surface Mobility (add all that apply):

• At least 50% of the Duna crew have access to a seat in a Basic Rover during their outpost surface mission. (+1)
• Every crew member has access to a Pressurized Rover seat. (+2)
• The outpost is land-mobile/Pressurized Rover (Habitation rule applies). (+3)

How exactly these ones are supposed to work: does the the third automatically include the previous ones or do they require several vehicles?

[Kerbolitto]

Outpost service is starting now !

 

6 famous Kerbals from Kerman's family (not those Kermans, the other ones) landed on Duna in a wheeled outpost with 0 protection, except maybe a helmet to share.

2 are remaining into orbit for mining operation and taking some pictures.

This is Year 1 Day 389 and it's 4h30, the outpost is now fully operationnal (after some cooling, the re-entry was kinda on the hot side).

Edited July 19, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[Death Engineering]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:14 PM, funk said:

Edit: Totally forgot to ask @Death Engineeringabout the inflatable airlock, it technically could be counted towards habitation space, but most likely cheety. Will you treat it like the external seat?

I wanted to confirm where the airlock was in the tech tree before responding, but I haven't had a working KSP install for several days (gasp!). I wanted to circle back on the Constellation challenge to wrap up a mission to Dres but I totally kacked my install for this challenge in the process of updating mods. 

As it turns out, the airlock was where I thought it was.. in Coupling and not Utility. Thanks for bringing this up. So..

 

Airlocks or other parts which hold crew which are in the "Coupling" tab of the VAB/SPH do not count towards habitation. The part must have a "Crew capacity" value in its description in the VAB/SPH.