[KSP >= 1.3.0] TweakScale - Under Lisias' Management - 2.4.8.8 - 2024-1117

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, zangonoid said:

Hey @Lisias, seeing this "Your 'pwd' doesn't match KSP's 'Application Root'!" at startup with KSP-Recall-0.4.0.2, TweakScale-2.4.7.4, and TweakScaleCompanion-2023.10.21.2. After I hit ok, the next error message appears stating it could not find part of path, mentioning a path to PD Launcher with GameData, and then closes the game. I have tried clearing MM Cache. Without TweakScale installed, game is working fine and GameData is located at C:/Steam/steamapps/common/Kerbal Space Program/GameData/.

You need to proper configure your Steam Launcher. No matter what people tells you, KSP is not meant to be run this way and it will misbehave by saving some key files on the wrong place if you don't fix this,

Restore the Steam Launch command line, then replace that sad excuse of launcher PD shoved on us with 

A full report for this problem can be found here: http://ksp.lisias.net/add-ons/KSP-Recall/Support/

[JonnyOThan]

4 hours ago, zangonoid said:

Hey @Lisias, seeing this "Your 'pwd' doesn't match KSP's 'Application Root'!" at startup with KSP-Recall-0.4.0.2, TweakScale-2.4.7.4, and TweakScaleCompanion-2023.10.21.2. After I hit ok, the next error message appears stating it could not find part of path, mentioning a path to PD Launcher with GameData, and then closes the game. I have tried clearing MM Cache. Without TweakScale installed, game is working fine and GameData is located at C:/Steam/steamapps/common/Kerbal Space Program/GameData/.

This error is more about how you are launching the game than anything else. Did you change the steam startup options, etc?

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, zangonoid said:

Hey @Lisias, seeing this "Your 'pwd' doesn't match KSP's 'Application Root'!" at startup with KSP-Recall-0.4.0.2, TweakScale-2.4.7.4, and TweakScaleCompanion-2023.10.21.2. After I hit ok, the next error message appears stating it could not find part of path, mentioning a path to PD Launcher with GameData, and then closes the game. I have tried clearing MM Cache. Without TweakScale installed, game is working fine and GameData is located at C:/Steam/steamapps/common/Kerbal Space Program/GameData/.

Besides my previous post

I also suggest you to read this one, as a very complete discussion about every possible solution to the PD Launcher problem is available:

Also, to avoid repeating myself, on the following thread you will find all my reasoning to consider PD Launcher a pretty useless and sad excuse of a software:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/210419-get-rid-of-the-stupid-launcher-nobody-likes-them-and-they-do-nothing-but-ruin-the-gaming-experience/

[zangonoid]

4 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

This error is more about how you are launching the game than anything else. Did you change the steam startup options, etc?

Yea I modified the launch options to bypass the launcher.

5 hours ago, Lisias said:

You need to proper configure your Steam Launcher. No matter what people tells you, KSP is not meant to be run this way and it will misbehave by saving some key files on the wrong place if you don't fix this,

Restore the Steam Launch command line, then replace that sad excuse of launcher PD shoved on us with 

A full report for this problem can be found here: http://ksp.lisias.net/add-ons/KSP-Recall/Support/

KSSL certainly did the trick, thanks!

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

Besides my previous post

I also suggest you to read this one, as a very complete discussion about every possible solution to the PD Launcher problem is available:

Also, to avoid repeating myself, on the following thread you will find all my reasoning to consider PD Launcher a pretty useless and sad excuse of a software:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/210419-get-rid-of-the-stupid-launcher-nobody-likes-them-and-they-do-nothing-but-ruin-the-gaming-experience/

Good reads!

[Kerbal2023]

I noticed that putting the starter solid fuel rocket under the starter pod, launching both the normal and the one bigger boster, the small one goes higher. Even though the game says thrust and delta v is higher.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I noticed that putting the starter solid fuel rocket under the starter pod, launching both the normal and the one bigger boster, the small one goes higher. Even though the game says thrust and delta v is higher.

Yep, you are right.

I reproduced your behaviour using a flea, 3 fins and a command module. I did a flight with the default values, and another scaling only the flea, and the unscaled  flea pushed the craft almost 3 times higher.

Why?

Well… Due DRAG! Both default and scaled fleas only burns for about 8 seconds - the scaled flea has more fuel, but also consumes more of it, and so the total burning time is the same. Obviously, the scaled flea have a hell of a mightier kick, so it reaches a higher speed too. But after only 8 seconds, both crafts are still on lower atmosphere, and the now higher dead mass (and volume!) of the scaled flea starts to erode any extra kick it had.

It's essentially how things works on Real Life© by the way - atmospheric drag is a…. drag!

Press F-12 and see the drag (the read line) by yourself. The larger the part, more drag (and weight) is have and this erodes any speed you have on atmosphere pretty fast.

Redo your tests launching from Moon and see yourself!

[JonnyOThan]

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

Redo your tests launching from Moon and see yourself!

Good science.  Reminds me of 

 

[Kerbal2023]

16 hours ago, Lisias said:

But after only 8 seconds, both crafts are still on lower atmosphere, and the now higher dead mass (and volume!) of the scaled flea starts to erode any extra kick it had.

Ah, I get it! The big rocket does go higher than the smaller one during the 8 seconds they have thrust, but then during the far longer coast to max altitude the heavier rocket gets pulled down more. So I can't just compare "highest point reached".

Thanks for the response. And thanks for the mod upkeep. I used it back in the day and wanted to get it to work again. It was a bit of a challenge to figure out the right version and dependency stuff, as various old versions are floating around the internet, but now it seems to work. I just wanted to make sure the physics is not a bug because of installing an incompatible version.

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, Kerbal2023 said:

It was a bit of a challenge to figure out the right version and dependency stuff, as various old versions are floating around the internet, but now it seems to work. I just wanted to make sure the physics is not a bug because of installing an incompatible version.

Unless you have a very specific use case that I can't grasp right now, always use the latest version. I make absolutely sure the thing works fine from KSP 1.4.0 to the latest - or, at least, the most fine I can manage - it's some time since I tried it on KSP 1.3.1, but I remember trying once with success in the past).

(I know there are some rough edges left, but I'm working on them - I think I finally understood how Editor screws up some things, and so I can try to unscrew them).

In a way or another, if you find a bug that it's not registered yet, I don't mind what KSP you are using, I will fix it somehow!

Cheers!

[artwhaley]

Is there any way to get tweakscale to quit complaining twice on every load about the fact that Ckan is also apparently installed?   I read in the other thread it's supposed to be once a month but it is twice on EVERY load of the game for me without any changes being made to the install.   

As a fellow mod maker... I certainly respect your right to list or not list your mod with Ckan...  and I understand not wanting to put in work to support whatever issue Ckan may have created for your codebase...  but please just DELIST YOUR MOD with Ckan if you don't want to deal with them, rather than annoying all the users with a tantrum twice on every load?    If the double tantrum on load isn't intended behavior, let me know what logs and details you need to troubleshoot that, I guess.   

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, artwhaley said:

Is there any way to get tweakscale to quit complaining twice on every load about the fact that Ckan is also apparently installed?   I read in the other thread it's supposed to be once a month but it is twice on EVERY load of the game for me without any changes being made to the install.   

This thing only happens once a month, and even that if the ConfigCache was modified since the last time the message was issued. What you are describing is a clear anomaly.

You will find a file called KSPe.InstallChecker.cfg on the directory <KSP-ROOT>/PluginData with the timestamp of the last CKAN message. Check if the contents of this file is being correctly updated on your rig.

 

4 hours ago, artwhaley said:

If the double tantrum on load isn't intended behavior, let me know what logs and details you need to troubleshoot that, I guess.   

It's an anomaly. Please send me your KSP.log, but for good measure also the Player.log and the ModuleManager.ConfigCache. There's something wrong happening on your rig, and there's a good chance this is happening due a unfortunate interaction with a 3rd party or even some unhappy monkey patching and I will need every bit of information available to infer the reason is it's something non trivial!

[Kerbal2023]

Only problem I have right now is that it seems to make my decoupling force buggy. I can't kep my stacked satellites from geting smashed up when they separate. Force percent is at 0.

[Lisias]

22 hours ago, Kerbal2023 said:

Only problem I have right now is that it seems to make my decoupling force buggy. I can't kep my stacked satellites from geting smashed up when they separate. Force percent is at 0.

How they are staged? Everything is decoupled at the same time, or one by one? I'm assuming the decouplers are scaled, right?

It would help me a bit if you could send me a minimum craft where the problem happens.

Spoiler

Alternatively, you can try this patch:

@TWEAKSCALEEXPONENTS[ModuleDecouple]:FINAL
{
	@ejectionForce = 1
}

This will literally "deactivate" scaling that attribute (anything elevated to the power of 1.0 is itself) and so if this is a problem where TweakScale is involved, it will be solved - at expense of the separation force (what's should not be a problem, as you had set it to 0).

edit: the patch above is useless, the problem is completely unrelated to TweakScale's scalings.

— — POST EDIT — — 

I tried the following test:

Both the TD-06 Decoupler as the HECS were scaled up twice. I staged them sequentially.

I cheated my way into orbit, and hit Stage 3 times. Everything worked fine to me, with Force Percent =0 as well =100.

I'm pretty sure this is a problem on something in your rig at this point - can you send me your KSP.log too?

— — POST POST EDIT — — 

I think I finally understood. You found yet another bug on KSP 1.12.5 (I'm betting happening since 1.8.0 or something later, as I never got this on 1.7.3 and 1.4.3, my KSP versions of choice for serious playing).

When launching a craft, there's a chance (not sure the statistics) that the first satellite being decoupled by hitting stage would be decoupled into the Infinity. The new vessel is not computed as destroyed, I think it's being launched into Kraken's sphere of influence instantaneously.

I managed to (more or less) deterministically reproduce the problem the first time I launch a craft when I load a savegame. Reverting to VAB and launching the thing again fixed the problem on every further attempt, until reloading the savegame from Main Menu (didn't tried quicksave/quickload).

Additionally, I also determined that the problem never happens when using the Decouple button on PAW, it's something that I only reproduced by hitting Stage! So this is not something I could handle on TweakScale (being its fault or not), because the decoupling itself is working as expected, it's something that is only happening when the decoupling is executed by the code that handles the Stage keypress.

Closing KSP and inspecting KSP.log and Player.log, I found this :

[LOG 16:47:08.315] Packing Untitled Space Craft Probe for orbit
[LOG 16:47:08.327] ObT : NaN
M : NaN
E : NaN
V : NaN
Radius: NaN
vel: [NaN, NaN, NaN]
AN: [4527.46041793627, -686736.988244428, 0]
period: Infinity

[WRN 16:47:08.327] [OrbitDriver Warning!]: Untitled Space Craft Probe had a NaN Orbit and was removed.

What confirms that the first stage of the first launch of a recently loaded savegame is leading to the annihilation of the new craft when it's created by decoupling using the Stage button. 

I want to emphasise again that manually decoupling the decoupler via PAW never leaded to this problem on any of my tests.

TL;DR: this is a new misbehaviour on KSP, present for sure on 1.12.5 and absent for sure on 1.7.3 and 1.4.3.  (other KSP versions weren't tested). TweakScale apparently is a trigger to the problem by reasons beyound me at this moment.

Was the problem happening too when manually decoupling the thing, I could consider TweakScale as a possible suspect, but since the problem only happens on staging, I can't blame other than KSP itself at this moment.

— — — POST POST POST EDIT — — — 

The misbehaviour was reproduced with UNSCALED PARTS, completely ruling out TweakScale from the equation. When the part is at default scale, the Module TweakScale deactivate itself to save some CPU and, so, it's incapable of misbehavings.

It's still possible that the presence of TweakScale on a part can trigger the problem, but in this case I think that any other add'on would trigger the problem the same because, well, TweakScale is inactive on unscaled parts - unless KSP itself would be calling an inactive MonoBehaviour what, frankly, would be a very stupid move.

— — — POST POST POST POST EDIT — — — 

KSP 1.8.1. did not presented the problem.

— — — POST POST POST POST POST EDIT — — — 

KSP 1.9.1 did not presented the problem.

The misbehaviour were reproduced on KSP 1.10.1 and KSP 1.11.2 .

So it's something that started to happen on KSP 1.10.x as it appears.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lisias
POST POST POST POST POST EDIT

[Kerbal2023]

Hi, thanks for the effort. I'm not home so I will respond in more detail later. I'll send the requested files then.

I decouple one stage at the time. The decoupler/separator (I tried several) itself isnt even necessarily scaled, but most of the satellite parts are.

I also had the problem when decoupling via parts window.

I only got this problem after installing TweakScale, and only with this scaled satellite setup. It used to work before. So I highly suspect its related to the mod.

I gotta say, tweaking the size of everything is a lot of fun and the game wouldn't be the same without it. But it introduces some technical issues. I also can't copy many scaled parts (a whole satellite) in the VAB with Alt+klick, they get pulled apart and the resulting segments don't connect any more. So I had to recreate the three satellites manually.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Kerbal2023

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I only got this problem after installing TweakScale, and only with this scaled satellite setup. It used to work before. So I highly suspect its related to the mod.

I'm afraid TweakScale is triggering something on some 3rd party, or more probably KSP itself. When TweakScale detects its part is not scaled, it literally shut itself down (Monobehaviour.active = false), and so there's not much of a chance of it doing something that could lead to the crash.

 

3 hours ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I also can't copy many scaled parts (a whole satellite) in the VAB with Alt+klick, they get pulled apart and the resulting segments don't connect any more. So I had to recreate the three satellites manually.

This is a known issue. KSP's Editor is completely messed up, it screws the PartModules on loading when the root part of the subtree is a part with variant. I worked around this.

Now there's another problem exactly related to the Alt+Click, where things get messed up under the same circunstances (subtree's root is a variant), but the fix for this problem ressurrected the loading problem - so I had to choose the less worst of the problems for now.

(it's interesting to note that the loading bug only happens on Editor - if you launch the craft directly on the Launch Pad or Runway, it's loaded fine)

In a way or another, I pinpointed the point of rupture for sure but the fix will imply in a bit of refactoring on TweakScale to cope with the messed up Editor's life cycle without screwing with the Flight Scene's one.

related issues:

• https://github.com/TweakScale/TweakScale/issues/314
• https://github.com/TweakScale/TweakScale/issues/307

[Kerbal2023]

21 hours ago, Lisias said:

The misbehaviour was reproduced with UNSCALED PARTS, completely ruling out TweakScale from the equation. When the part is at default scale, the Module TweakScale deactivate itself to save some CPU and, so, it's incapable of misbehavings.

It's still possible that the presence of TweakScale on a part can trigger the problem, but in this case I think that any other add'on would trigger the problem the same because, well, TweakScale is inactive on unscaled parts - unless KSP itself would be calling an inactive MonoBehaviour what, frankly, would be a very stupid move.

I pretty much think that I scaled my parts so much that the game, which was not designed for this functionality, can't handle the sizes/distances/relations between parts, the force of the decoulper is too large, so my antennas are destroyed. It's sort of how exhaust flame don't become bigger when I make a rocket larger. The game did not anticipate the larger rocket and uses the standard size exhaust flame. In the same way decoupling physics is somehow not applied in a scaled way when I decouple scaled parts.

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

I'm afraid TweakScale is triggering something on some 3rd party, or more probably KSP itself. When TweakScale detects its part is not scaled, it literally shut itself down (Monobehaviour.active = false), and so there's not much of a chance of it doing something that could lead to the crash.

The only mods I use are TweakScale and MechJeb (and their dependencies), because I am very careful with creating mod conflicts with this 10 year old game, where many of the mods weren't updated. I pretty much figured installing too much will cause trouble.

Btw. you need MechJeb 2 to test that craft file I sent you, it has a module on it.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I pretty much think that I scaled my parts so much that the game, which was not designed for this functionality, can't handle the sizes/distances/relations between parts, the force of the decoulper is too large, so my antennas are destroyed. It's sort of how exhaust flame don't become bigger when I make a rocket larger. The game did not anticipate the larger rocket and uses the standard size exhaust flame. In the same way decoupling physics is somehow not applied in a scaled way when I decouple scaled parts.

Nope, the game's engine works fine.

ALL, absolutely ALL the problems TweskScale is facing right now are due mishaps on Editor.

Had we problems on the game's engine itself,  we would have problems on Flight Scene since KSP 1.3.1 - but what we are facing are exactly the opposite - older KSP versions work better then newer.

 

1 hour ago, Kerbal2023 said:

The only mods I use are TweakScale and MechJeb (and their dependencies), because I am very careful with creating mod conflicts with this 10 year old game, where many of the mods weren't updated. I pretty much figured installing too much will cause trouble.

Btw. you need MechJeb 2 to test that craft file I sent you, it has a module on it.

Thanks. I will check them by night.

Now that I stablished exactly in which KSP the problem started to happen, I have a benchmark to do some interesting testings in order to locate exactly where the problem is being triggered and, with a bit of luck, also why.

I need to understand why TweakScale is being used as a trigger for the problem - otherwise I risk replacing a bug with another one, potentially worst (as it happened recently on that links I published above!).

[Kerbal2023]

I can use UnKerballed Start with this, right? I didn't find any mention of either in either thread.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I can use UnKerballed Start with this, right? I didn't find any mention of either in either thread.

As far as I know, yes. But I never tested it.

TweakScale doesn't touch Tech Trees (what's a conceptual bug itself, TS should be inserted in the tech tree somehow - but I have more pressuring tasks at the moment).

[Kerbal2023]

I asked because that mod adds some parts. But I'll be using Probes Before Crew instead, because UnKerballed Start wasn't working for me.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Kerbal2023

[Lisias]

11 minutes ago, Kerbal2023 said:

I asked because that mod adds some parts. But I'll be using Probes Before Crew instead, because UnKerballed Start wasn't working for me.

Didn't knew this one, thanks for the tip!

[Gregory Eisenhorn]

Hey, is Tweakscale compatible with Ohscrap and Scrapyard? cause i cant  use Tweakscale anymore if i have those 2 mods active.

[Lisias]

12 hours ago, Gregory Eisenhorn said:

Hey, is Tweakscale compatible with Ohscrap and Scrapyard? cause i cant  use Tweakscale anymore if i have those 2 mods active.

I don't know Ohscrap and Scrapyard in details to give you a proper answer, but in principle, no, they are not supported - i.e., there's no Campanion adding support for them.

If additionally they are fundamentally incompatible with each other, I never checked.

To make things clear:

1. Incompatible with TweakScale: something that breaks if TweakScale tries to mangle with it, or that breaks TweakScale by trying to mangle with, that fights TweakScale leading to a game crash when both are installed.
   1. ex: Kerbalism. as it have a on-rails engine for simulating things when crafts are on rails, and there's absolutely no way for TweakScale to work with it as TweakScale is a off-rails only add'on.
2. Unsupported: things that need some code or patch in order to work with TweakScale, but otherwise don't do any damages (other than not being scaled, or being partially scaled).
   1. ex1: Firespitter, as it adds new PartModules that someone had to teach TweakScale how to scale them (in this case, using the TweakScale Companion for Firespitter).
   2. ex2: BlueDog_DB, as it adds a lot of parts that I need to analyse and then write patches for it (what will be done on TweakScale Companion for Rockets as soon as RealLife™ and DayJob© allows!).

Without analysing these two add'ons, I can't say in which one they fit!

I will try to do it in this Seasons, pending agreement with RealLife™ and DayJob©

 

[Kerbal2023]

Do parachute stats in any way scale with part size, or is it just cheating when I make them more compact?

[Lisias]

24 minutes ago, Kerbal2023 said:

Do parachute stats in any way scale with part size, or is it just cheating when I make them more compact?

You can check it yourself!