[KSP 1.8 - 1.12+] - Probes Before Crew [PBC] Version 2.93

[_Zee]

10 hours ago, Cruesoe said:

No. Not everyone uses CKAN though.

Kerbalism is best downloaded separately for example. I wouldn't want miss out Kerbalism. I like Kerbalism.

Kerbalism.

Hopefully that bumps the priority for, and I'll say it one more time, Kerbalism.

Kerbalism is being worked on right now, and I actually have a question for you and any other Kerbalism users.

Kerbalism makes very broad, game-changing Science tweaks that cannot co-exist with mine. This is actually the challenge with this patch, there are only something like 20 parts and those won't take very long to sort into the tech-tree.
The question is if someone decided to use both PBC and Kerbalism, which Science tweaks would they be more likely to expect/prefer? For now I've assumed it will probably be a pretty even split between one and the other, so I'm currently working on thinking up the best and least-complicated method to allow users to easily switch between one setting and the other (this is proving to be a challenge). But my assumption could be wrong and that would change how I move forward.

As of right now, this is the thought process:
If PBC and Kerbalism are both installed, some of Kerbalism's Science changes should remain no matter what (its why you installed Kerbalism) while others will either need to defer to my mod or vice versa.
The things from Kerbalism that will remain no matter what: The new Storage UI that uses Harddrives, The increased transmission times and their associated EC cost, the Science Lab Module replacement
The things that need to be one mod or the other: Experiment science values, Experiment situation masks, Experiment biome masks. 

The list of things that need to be decided by my mod or the other might not seem like much, but it completely changes how the game plays out over the course of a Career.
For example, one of the first and most obvious differences is that the Crew Report and EVA Reports are still the 2 least valuable experiments under Kerbalism's rules, while they much more valuable within PBC's rules.
To make things a bit more confusing, the values that I've assign to all experiment parts are partially responsible for their position within my tech tree. Deferring to Kerbalism's values might disrupt that balance.

So help me out and clear this up for me Kerbalism users. If you've been waiting to use both of our mods together, which Science values did you assume would take priority? PBC's values, or Kerbalism's values?

Edited January 18, 2019 by _Zee

[lordcirth]

1 hour ago, _Zee said:

So help me out and clear this up for me Kerbalism users. If you've been waiting to use both of our mods together, which Science values did you assume would take priority? PBC's values, or Kerbalism's values?

I personally installed PBC for the tech tree.  I would expect Kerbalism's Science changes to take effect.

 

EDIT: Though I definitely want Telemetry to stay!

Edited January 18, 2019 by lordcirth

[_Zee]

Managed to think up a really simple solution.

I'll be migrating all my Science Definitions to a separate file. By default my science reward values will have priority over Kerbalism because of alphabetical ordering. So if you prefer my changes you don't have to do a thing. If you prefer to see the science reward values of Kerbalism (or any mod or even to go back to Vanilla for that matter), then simply delete/remove/rename to .txt this file and you're done. Everything else will remain as PBC defines, including where the experiment parts are supposed to be on the tech tree.

[jpkerman]

On 1/16/2019 at 9:56 PM, _Zee said:

I downloaded PCR and RasterProp and couldn't find this part anywhere, sorry.

It is in Raster Monitor prop but is deep in the file structure.  RasterPropMonitor>GameData>JSI>RasterPropMonitor>Library>Parts>ExternalCameraPart

 

[d4harp]

13 hours ago, _Zee said:

By default my science reward values will have priority over Kerbalism because of alphabetical ordering

IIRC kerbalism uses a psudo-mod called zzzKerbalism (or something along those lines) to force some changes to load after all other mods.

If science values are one of these, you would have to load your patches `:AFTER` that psudo-mod rather than relying on alphabetical ordering.

Otherwise, I support your suggested solution of override by default. If people are downloading a techtree mod, they most likely want the science balance to be well tuned with the progression balance

Edit: Ignore what I said about zzzKerbalism. I just verified by looking at the files. The only relevent change with the psudo-mod is `xmitDataScalar` which probably shouldn't be reverted anyway

Edited January 19, 2019 by d4harp
Corrected initial assumption

[Aodhan]

13 hours ago, _Zee said:

Managed to think up a really simple solution.

I'll be migrating all my Science Definitions to a separate file.

That would be a great idea 

I’d like to try this mod with vanilla science definitions and it would be easier if these were in a separate file.

[_Zee]

Version 2.3 released

//// Version 2.3 Changes

*Added Kerbalism Support
*Added Probe Control Room Support
Moved Science Definitions to a separate file named Zs_Science.cfg.
	-Deleting this file will return Science values to vanilla settings and will allow other mods Science Defs to take precedence.
Removed autoAccept feature from all contracts.
	-Causing more problems than its worth, I'll bring it back when the bug is fixed. 

This release introduces support for Kerbalism (chart), but it comes with some special instructions. The CTT patch natively provided by Kerbalism uses :FINAL tags. This means I cannot override where Kerbalism places parts on the tech tree. It also means parts moved by Kerbalism that do not belong to Kerbalism are moved and locked, which results in movements I've made to other mod parts to be actively un-done. I have sent a message to N70 requesting that they remove these tags for the next release of Kerbalism, but beyond that getting around the :FINAL tag is out of my control.

This means that you cannot simply plug-and-play Kerbalism alongside PBC, you must delete/remove/rename 1 file from your Kerbalism install first.
This file can be found in GameData/Kerbalism/Support and is named 'CTT.cfg'.
These instructions can also be found in the new Readme.txt file included in the PBC download.

EDIT: N70 has responded and this shouldn't be necessary anymore after they release the next Kerbalism update.
EDIT2: This is no longer necessary if you are using Kerbalism Version 2.1.2+

Also worth noting for the Kerbalism users, is the migration of my Science tweaks into its own dedicated file. This file contains the reward values for all experiments and hardcap for transmission % on experiments that must be returned for 100% (which is 30% btw). It does not contain the tech-tree node placement information. This means if for some reason you don't want to use my Science tweaks all you need to do is remove this file which will result in either vanilla or other mod values taking effect instead. I don't recommend anyone do this, but the option is there if you want it. This information can also be found in the new Readme.txt file included in the PBC download.

Next in line is the Mk IV Spaceplane System patch.

Edited February 5, 2019 by _Zee

[d4harp]

In your DMagic patch, there is a section at the bottom with the comment "Deprecated Parts??".

These parts are for Universal storage I and are incompatible with Universal Storage II. That is why they are defined as "Unresearchable" in the original DMagic files. So you should probably remove that part of the patch (unless you plan to add support for the old Universal Storage)

Edited January 20, 2019 by d4harp

[_Zee]

2 hours ago, d4harp said:

In your DMagic patch, there is a section at the bottom with the comment "Deprecated Parts??".

These parts are for Universal storage I and are incompatible with Universal Storage II. That is why they are defined as "Unresearchable" in the original DMagic files. So you should probably remove that part of the patch (unless you plan to add support for the old Universal Storage)

Right you are! I left that section in the config when I was first writing it and meant to go back and fix it after figuring out what they were. US1 is indeed not supported, seems I forgot to do that.
Thank you, will be fixed in the next release!

[Moostic]

So, I assume the PBC contract pack is just included with the main download? Because that does not appear to be functioning for me.
Even with the Contract Configurator installed and working without issue, it still seems to use the default contracts instead of the ones in your contract pack. All the boxes are checked for Contract Configurator in the difficulty settings, and none of them seem to correlate to your mod anyways.

EDIT: Issue resolved. Turns out I was using a version that came out just a couple days before the contracts were added. Oops.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Moostic
Issue resolved

[_Zee]

1 hour ago, Moostic said:

So, I assume the PBC contract pack is just included with the main download? Because that does not appear to be functioning for me.
Even with the Contract Configurator installed and working without issue, it still seems to use the default contracts instead of the ones in your contract pack. All the boxes are checked for Contract Configurator in the difficulty settings, and none of them seem to correlate to your mod anyways.

EDIT: Issue resolved. Turns out I was using a version that came out just a couple days before the contracts were added. Oops.

It's always the wrong version... 

Glad you got it working! And welcome to the forums.

Edited January 22, 2019 by _Zee

[_Zee]

Version 2.4 released

//// Version 2.4 Changes

*Added MkIV Spaceplane Support.
*Added KAS Support.
*Added KIS Support.
CKAN updated to include more details and current information.
Corrected autoAccept to false on Kerbol Contracts.
Corrected placement of 2.5m Service Module.
Corrected placement of Krane and Station Arm.
Corrected overpriced NF-Aero part in High Altitude node.
Removed 2 instances of :NEEDS[Squad Expansion] tag that didn't belong in the main cfg.
Removed unintentional Dmagic-US1 part placements. US1 is not supported.
Shifted several vanilla Mk3 Spaceplane parts into more consistent nodes.
    - Generally speaking, short and medium parts are unlocked with the Mk3 Cockpit, and the large/long parts arrive one node later.
Shifted vanilla Large Radial Decoupler one node later.
Shifted Gravimeter one node later.

MkIV Spaceplane System (chart) is now fully sorted and priced. Work on this support patch highlighted the still-messy organization of the vanilla Mk3 parts, and so now in 2.4 they are also properly sorted and priced.
KAS and KIS ended up needing cfg's after all. Stopped being lazy and properly sorted and priced all KAS (chart) and KIS (chart) parts.

The Gravimeter is the most frequently occurring experiment, 2nd only to the Crew Report. It applies a biome mask to all landed, low space, AND high space situations. It was properly nerfed from the very beginning in Version 1.0 with the value being brought down from 22 to 8. But it still needs an extra little nudge. Moving it back one node into T7 is the perfect level of moderate additional nerfing, as this puts it on the awkward boundary of unlocking right as you're just about finished fully exploring the moons of Kerbin. Deciding whether to drain the last drops of Science from the local moons, or moving straight ahead to Interplanetary Probes will fall to how well your program is doing.

The next support patch in line is B9 Aerospace.

[epideath]

Loving this so far. great work.

I was wondering if you might expand on the contracts when your time permits. I would like to see some other basic contracts. Such as rendezvous and/or docking, at kerbin, mun and minmus, either manned or unmanned or both. Also just some basic space station and/or planetary station contracts.

I was also wondering if you had https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/133606-14x—16x-kerbal-planetary-base-systems-v167-24-january-2019/ on your list, I would like to see this included.

Edited January 24, 2019 by epideath

[_Zee]

15 hours ago, epideath said:

I was wondering if you might expand on the contracts when your time permits.
/snip

 

I thought about this a little bit before and figured I'd wait until someone requested it before putting the effort in.

Rendezvous and Docking contracts are probably a pretty sound choice to add, but Station contracts are a category of their own in the eyes of KSP and putting in my own would cause overlap with that category without disabling it (ie, what I did for the Exploration category). I don't intend to disable or make an entire set of contracts for the Station category, there are already a few mods that touch those, but maybe I'll put in just a single contract for Kerbin at the very end of the Layer 1 Crewed line.

I'll give it some thought and eventually make some additions, thank you for suggesting it!

Also your mod support request has been added to the "to be looked at" list. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by _Zee

[epideath]

That sounds great Zee, yeah I wasn't intending for a complete station contract setup, I know there is a contract pack for stations and rovers. But as you stated just one maybe to get it all started.

[SlashTen]

Hello,

If my ship's vessel type is "Relay," it won't complete the probe missions in the contract pack. Using rename and switching it to probe will get the contract parameters to complete. I'm still using PBC 2.2 but I didn't notice this issue in any of the change logs.

I have been really enjoying your mod. The tech nodes are really well thought out, and having a good new tech tree gives the game new life.

[epideath]

I believe that is just the way that contract configurator works, or maybe even stock contracts. It only allows for one vessel type in contract configuration. So once you add a relay antenna the vessel becomes a relay. As far as I know you have to change the vessel type anytime this happens.

[_Zee]

1 hour ago, SlashTen said:

Hello,

If my ship's vessel type is "Relay," it won't complete the probe missions in the contract pack. Using rename and switching it to probe will get the contract parameters to complete. I'm still using PBC 2.2 but I didn't notice this issue in any of the change logs.

I have been really enjoying your mod. The tech nodes are really well thought out, and having a good new tech tree gives the game new life.

Exactly what @epideath said. This is a limitation of how contract configurator works. Best we can do is be mindful of how the game tags vessels and just switch the tag when needed.
Really glad you are enjoying the mod, thank you. 

[epideath]

Hey Zee, I have another request if it is possible and you have the time.

I just installed the Outer Kerbin planet pack and I noticed that contracts where generated for the new planet for ScanSat, BasesandStations, Saellite and Strategia. These are the contract packs I have installed.

It seems there is a way to make a general contract that finds any new bodies and creates contracts. I have no idea how the contract configs work.

But it would be really cool if your contract pack some how saw any additional planets out there and added generic contracts for probe and crewed missions.

 

Thanks

[Zuthal]

One question that is kinda tangential to this mod: Does anyone here know of a mod that works for 1.6.1 that adds small-diameter SRBs and probe parts that would go into the starting tech node? Because starting out with a Flea and a Stayputnik just feels kinda ehhhh to me, from a realism POV.

 

[epideath]

https://spacedock.info/mod/442/Bluedog Design Bureau

This has some smaller SRB's and liquid engines, But so much more, its massive over 400 parts they say. It will run with PbC but I'm sure it would through the balance that Zee has put into PbC completely out a whack. Blue Dog used to have a small probe parts pack a long time ago. It looks like it may have got incorporated into this one, as I haven't seen that one for awhile. Bit Bluedog does good stuff.

I can't imagine Zee getting this one done for a long, long time, if he even decided to tackle it.

I was also looking for just a few smaller parts also. This is all I have seen that is for 1.6.1 so far.

 

[Tonka Crash]

3 hours ago, Zuthal said:

One question that is kinda tangential to this mod: Does anyone here know of a mod that works for 1.6.1 that adds small-diameter SRBs and probe parts that would go into the starting tech node? Because starting out with a Flea and a Stayputnik just feels kinda ehhhh to me, from a realism POV.

 

USI Sounding Rockets is a perfect fit. Also look for a Sounding Rockets contract pack.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Tonka Crash

[ModZero]

6 hours ago, epideath said:

This has some smaller SRB's and liquid engines, But so much more, its massive over 400 parts they say. It will run with PbC but I'm sure it would through the balance that Zee has put into PbC completely out a whack. Blue Dog used to have a small probe parts pack a long time ago. It looks like it may have got incorporated into this one, as I haven't seen that one for awhile. Bit Bluedog does good stuff.

I was just trying to make a very naive version of a patch for myself, and, uh, it's not easy. The good news is, it kinda assumes you'll want to start with probes, so you get probe parts in vaguely okay-ish places. But the Apollo/Gemini/Mercury parts are "a lot," and they're not all in "one place": you get SRBs, parachutes, docking ports (those are maybe scariest) and antennas, _and_ combined parts including science (!!!) and all I can come up with is "put all mercury parts in simple command modules," (thankfully parts are neatly segregated into folders, so at least it's easy to find them, and yes, Apollo is separate from Saturn) which may be really daft, and negates any work CobaltWolf did placing components in considered places.

Edit: I thought I'd include my garbage patch for BDB. It's bad, don't use it

@PART[bluedog_mercury*]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
	@TechRequired = simpleCommandModules
}


@PART[bluedog_Gemini_*]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
	@TechRequired = commandModules
}

@PART[bluedog_Apollo_*]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree,ProbesBeforeCrew]
{
    @TechRequired = heavyCommandModules
}

Edit 2: oh, also, achieving an uncrewed orbit with the Sienno on the first node, on a 6.4x rescale. That's great and IMO kinda makes sense, but also means I didn't get to do all the intermediate contracts (b/c no autoaccept), which made me sad.

Edited January 26, 2019 by ModZero

[EchoLima]

6 hours ago, Zuthal said:

One question that is kinda tangential to this mod: Does anyone here know of a mod that works for 1.6.1 that adds small-diameter SRBs and probe parts that would go into the starting tech node? Because starting out with a Flea and a Stayputnik just feels kinda ehhhh to me, from a realism POV.

 

RLA Reborn has small SRBs, as well as additional .625m lfo tanks.

Also see SETI Probe Parts.

[_Zee]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:28 PM, epideath said:

/snip
But it would be really cool if your contract pack some how saw any additional planets out there and added generic contracts for probe and crewed missions.
Thanks

Aye, extra planet mods will receive support as well eventually. I'll probably do that during the same release that involves adding rendezvous and docking contracts. 

 

11 hours ago, Zuthal said:

One question that is kinda tangential to this mod: Does anyone here know of a mod that works for 1.6.1 that adds small-diameter SRBs and probe parts that would go into the starting tech node? Because starting out with a Flea and a Stayputnik just feels kinda ehhhh to me, from a realism POV.

 

RLA Reborn is probably the best fit for what you're asking. I have no idea how it lays out its parts in the tech-tree as I haven't looked at it yet but you can try it out. I'll bump the priority for this support patch up.
A Sounding Rockets support patch is a possibility further down the line, but its a been a while since it was updated so... meh.
Also don't forget I always place Gameplay before Realism. ALWAYS!! 

 

11 hours ago, epideath said:

https://spacedock.info/mod/442/Bluedog Design Bureau
/snip

I'd love to add support for this one eventually.