Cruel challenge idea I don't know whether to post or not (edit: planning stage)

[M_Rat13]

Currently, I have a post up about a race from the surface to Moho, to the surface of Eeloo. It's certainly going to be interesting, but it got my thinking of other race ideas.

Specifically, a race from the surface of Eve, to the surface of Tylo. While I wouldn't be limiting designs, as I haven't for the Moho to Eeloo race, the designs will have to carry Kerbals, and stick to one craft, with no docking. 

Ultimately, I'm worried this race will be too cruel for even KSP players, but I'm not sure, and want your opinions, please.

Also, I hope no one steals my idea, but I can't do much about that now. I just didn't want to post it without seeing what the likely reaction might be.

Edit:

Challenge likely to go ahead, with bonus mini challenges to decrease time. These would be (for now) -

No ions: reduce time by 10%.

No nukes: reduce time by 5%.

No command chairs: reduce time by 5%.

For every one extra Kerbal you bring (on top of your pilot): reduce time by 1%, up to a max of 20% (20 kerbals).

Your vehicle is an SSTO (no staging): reduce time by 80%.

Note: each mini challenge stacks. If you have no nukes and no ions, for example, your time is reduced by 15%. However, the maximum time reduction you can have is 90%.

Thoughts?

Edited March 28, 2019 by M_Rat13

[swjr-swis]

24 minutes ago, M_Rat13 said:

I just didn't want to post it without seeing what the likely reaction might be.

 

Likely, something like:

 

Specifically, the part:

Quote

Is this challenge possible?

Many challenges we see are nearly or literally impossible to achieve, and usually very little thought has gone into them, these challenges just annoy people, waste forum space and show that the submitter hasn't really tried.

So test your challenge yourself first to make sure it is possible, you don't have to be successful but you'll soon know if the challenge has a hope of being completed.

 

[M_Rat13]

@swjr-swis I saw a video of an SSTO that could go from the surface of Kerbin to the surface of Eve and back again.

I fully believe at least one person will figure this out, but it could be a huge pain to figure out. You've got to make a craft that can get off Eve, that carries a vehicle capable of getting from Eve orbit to Tylo orbit, that also has to carry a Tylo lander.

Plus you have to land all of that on Eve to start the race. Would you do that, if you were good enough?

[Gargamel]

Moved to Challenges, where you are likely to get better reactions from the player base who regularly takes part in such adventures. 

[M_Rat13]

6 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

Moved to Challenges, where you are likely to get better reactions from the player base who regularly takes part in such adventures. 

Well I wasn't sure the right place for this thread, so it's nice to get a professional's input.

[Gargamel]

17 minutes ago, M_Rat13 said:

professional's

Oooohhh... I got a promotion!

[sevenperforce]

9 hours ago, M_Rat13 said:

Currently, I have a post up about a race from the surface to Moho, to the surface of Eeloo. It's certainly going to be interesting, but it got my thinking of other race ideas.

Specifically, a race from the surface of Eve, to the surface of Tylo. While I wouldn't be limiting designs, as I haven't for the Moho to Eeloo race, the designs will have to carry Kerbals, and stick to one craft, with no docking. 

Ultimately, I'm worried this race will be too cruel for even KSP players, but I'm not sure, and want your opinions, please.

Also, I hope no one steals my idea, but I can't do much about that now. I just didn't want to post it without seeing what the likely reaction might be.

Cruel, but I like it!

Put a scoring element in (lowest part count, lowest Eve liftoff mass, etc) and I'll do it.

[Aeroboi]

@swjr-swisI do not see this as a impossible challenge at all.

This mission will be something like Eve 3000 in which I participated but instead of carrying ore your carrying a multistage to get to Tylo. A thoroughly complicated mission... yes! Impossible... no!

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Aeroboi

[Ultimate Steve]

Really, I think all that has to be done is just getting a few tons into Eve orbit, which should be simple enough.

[M_Rat13]

32 minutes ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Really, I think all that has to be done is just getting a few tons into Eve orbit, which should be simple enough.

Then I'm sure you'll be at the top of the leaderboard

[sevenperforce]

20 minutes ago, M_Rat13 said:

1 hour ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Really, I think all that has to be done is just getting a few tons into Eve orbit, which should be simple enough.

Then I'm sure you'll be at the top of the leaderboard

As long as there is an actual leaderboard (based on weight or cost or part count or SOMETHING) then I will compete with @Ultimate Steve for that coveted spot.

[M_Rat13]

On 3/26/2019 at 7:39 PM, sevenperforce said:

As long as there is an actual leaderboard (based on weight or cost or part count or SOMETHING) then I will compete with @Ultimate Steve for that coveted spot.

I had some thinking. To spice things up, what if it were a points based system.

Base it off of total weight at the start line, amount of Kerbals on the flight, place on the leaderboard, etc. I probably need some help designing such a system however, thoughts?

[vyznev]

9 minutes ago, M_Rat13 said:

I had some thinking. To spice things up, what if it were a points based system.

Base it off of total weight at the start line, amount of Kerbals on the flight, place on the leaderboard, etc. I probably need some help designing such a system however, thoughts?

It's quite tricky to come up with a good way to combine multiple scoring factors in such a way that one of them doesn't end up dominating the others. Unless you make the number of points obtainable from each factor strictly limited, in which case it tends to turn into a "check the boxes" challenge (i.e. the optimal strategy is just to get the maximum score in as many categories as possible). Not that there's anything wrong with those, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're looking for.

My suggestion would be to keep it simple. Ranking entries by a single factor, such as lowest mass at liftoff or lowest cost, would be fine. Shortest time could work too, but you'd have the same issue as with the Moho to Eeloo race (i.e. the challenge will just come down to lifting as much xenon gas off Eve as possible).

If you really want to get fancy, try a two-factor scoring formula. For example, something like lowest (time from launch to landing) * (mass at liftoff) could potentially be fun to optimize. (I'd expect it to basically come down to maximizing the payload mass fraction from Eve surface to orbit, which is a reasonable challenge in and of itself.) But three factors is probably too many.

[M_Rat13]

20 minutes ago, vyznev said:

It's quite tricky to come up with a good way to combine multiple scoring factors in such a way that one of them doesn't end up dominating the others. Unless you make the number of points obtainable from each factor strictly limited, in which case it tends to turn into a "check the boxes" challenge (i.e. the optimal strategy is just to get the maximum score in as many categories as possible). Not that there's anything wrong with those, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're looking for.

My suggestion would be to keep it simple. Ranking entries by a single factor, such as lowest mass at liftoff or lowest cost, would be fine. Shortest time could work too, but you'd have the same issue as with the Moho to Eeloo race (i.e. the challenge will just come down to lifting as much xenon gas off Eve as possible).

If you really want to get fancy, try a two-factor scoring formula. For example, something like lowest (time from launch to landing) * (mass at liftoff) could potentially be fun to optimize. (I'd expect it to basically come down to maximizing the payload mass fraction from Eve surface to orbit, which is a reasonable challenge in and of itself.) But three factors is probably too many.

What about some kind of percentage? An example will explain it best. If your craft is 100 tons at launch, but only 10 tons at destination, then only 10% of your craft reached the destination.

If that percentage also tied into your time, say with modifiers, so 100% of your craft, no modifier, but 10% of your craft, a 10x modifier, then you'd have to balance the two to get the best overall score.

Can that be made to work?

[sevenperforce]

11 hours ago, M_Rat13 said:

What about some kind of percentage? An example will explain it best. If your craft is 100 tons at launch, but only 10 tons at destination, then only 10% of your craft reached the destination.

If that percentage also tied into your time, say with modifiers, so 100% of your craft, no modifier, but 10% of your craft, a 10x modifier, then you'd have to balance the two to get the best overall score.

Can that be made to work?

That particular approach would lead to people heaping on the xenon so that they have enough dV to land spent stages on Tylo, just for the sake of landing more mass. Not necessarily a bad thing, but eventually such challenges become "who is patient enough to do 300 periapsis kicks" which gets rather boring. Price is a cool way to do it, because it forces mass optimizations, but it does tend to push people to a pancake-stage approach. 

The best approach, I think is to have people optimize the DRY mass of their Eve liftoff vehicle, which tends to level things out. If you want, then you can add few modifiers that each reduce the dry mass score by 10%. Like, "Direct flight from Eve to Tylo" or "No gravity assists" or "No periapsis kicks" or "No xenon" or even "No nukes". 

[Aeroboi]

1 hour ago, sevenperforce said:

That particular approach would lead to people heaping on the xenon so that they have enough dV to land spent stages on Tylo, just for the sake of landing more mass. Not necessarily a bad thing, but eventually such challenges become "who is patient enough to do 300 periapsis kicks" which gets rather boring. Price is a cool way to do it, because it forces mass optimizations, but it does tend to push people to a pancake-stage approach. 

The best approach, I think is to have people optimize the DRY mass of their Eve liftoff vehicle, which tends to level things out. If you want, then you can add few modifiers that each reduce the dry mass score by 10%. Like, "Direct flight from Eve to Tylo" or "No gravity assists" or "No periapsis kicks" or "No xenon" or even "No nukes". 

300 kicks? Just so you can win 50m/s to win, lame... I'd call someone out when he does that. That's 300 pictures of Kerbin or a 30 second 10x timelapse haha... 

As you say price would be the way to go in order to challenge this IMO, although it does not always force mass optimization.
No gravity assists, periapsis kicks plus no xenon or LV-N seems to restrict the challenge to design only. Is that a good thing or the challenge we all want? (me=no)

While restricting the challenge that way is simple and straightforward it will make the challenge very uniform, and boring. The point in winning it (if that's your drive regardless) is that you could master gravity assists and orbital maneuvers sufficiently because therein lies the challenge to win the race. I would allow LV-N over the Moho <> Tylo course. You would want some ISP oomph to traverse and win the distance, the proper planetary alignment and gravity assists will make one a winner. And let's not forget, it's a problem to lift a LV-N of off Eve so if you can do it and it pays off then let's allow one to use the LV-N if he wishes to.
If it is a race it should be a race. So while the Eve lifter would be the hardest to design it's the final stage and the piloting skill of the user to determine if he will win that race.
The Eve lifter part will just be the greater design element to lift your racer into space, the racer is just as important as the lifter. To restrict your race rocket to have nothing other then convential LF/O powerplant seems to limit the racing objective of this challenge. But maybe that is what we actually want, the race element thrown out of it.

Periapsis kicking using xenon is grinding and ultimately stupid, and if you allow xenon to be used people will try to squeeze out the last few Kg's of xenon weight to have the greatest edge and that would certainly make them a winner even if their Eve lifter was crappy to begin with. Through that method you can win on Xenon all day long without using gravity assists. If you allow everything you should make subcategories.
 

[M_Rat13]

@Aeroboi it's both a race, and a test. You are right I want people to focus on the Eve ascent/Tylo descent, but people might try to circumvent that. However I also don't want to dissuade anyone by making this mission harder than it already is. 

Also, I'd more want to reward none ion use, than punish ion users. Maybe use modifiers like I mentioned before, but in a different way, like mini challenges that benefit the player. No ion? Reduce your time by 10%, or something like that.

[Aeroboi]

2 minutes ago, M_Rat13 said:

@Aeroboi it's both a race, and a test. You are right I want people to focus on the Eve ascent/Tylo descent, but people might try to circumvent that. However I also don't want to dissuade anyone by making this mission harder than it already is. 

Also, I'd more want to reward none ion use, than punish ion users. Maybe use modifiers like I mentioned before, but in a different way, like mini challenges that benefit the player. No ion? Reduce your time by 10%, or something like that.

It's food for thought, people might further comment...

It's up to you

[M_Rat13]

3 minutes ago, Aeroboi said:

It's food for thought, people might further comment...

It's up to you

I've already thought of a funny mini challenge that's probably not going to be completed by anyone, but would massively reduce your time. Your build has to be an SSTO, no staging.

[Aeroboi]

1 minute ago, M_Rat13 said:

I've already thought of a funny mini challenge that's probably not going to be completed by anyone, but would massively reduce your time. Your build has to be an SSTO, no staging.

So that's a SSTO from Kerbin to Moho and then to Eeloo? Tricky... Are ION's okay? I'd say the burn times would be to long. Sometimes I combine them with LV'N.

Most Dv expenditure is done between Kerbin, Eve and Moho so you could get away with very few solar panels and pack a punch. I bet nobody is going to build entire ION ships just to score highest, but even if they do it's a achievement nonetheless so maybe you could categorize a ION leaderboard. 

[M_Rat13]

6 minutes ago, Aeroboi said:

So that's a SSTO from Kerbin to Moho and then to Eeloo? Tricky... Are ION's okay? I'd say the burn times would be to long. Sometimes I combine them with LV'N.

Most Dv expenditure is done between Kerbin, Eve and Moho so you could get away with very few solar panels and pack a punch. I bet nobody is going to build entire ION ships just to score highest, but even if they do it's a achievement nonetheless so maybe you could categorize a ION leaderboard. 

Not for the Moho to Eeloo race, that's already started and I'm too lazy to change it.

It's for the Eve to Tylo race I'm now planning, seeing as people are up for it.

Also, both races don't have any stipulation on how you get to the start line, which are Moho/Eve, not Kerbin.

[M_Rat13]

I made an edit to my main post, if people want to take a look.

[bayesian_acolyte]

Since this idea seems to have been abandoned, I'd like to revive it in a new thread. The tentative rules I favor are:

-A Small Holding Tank filled with ore (weighing 3.5 tons) needs to be transported from the surface of Eve to the surface of Tylo. The mission does not need to be manned and CommNet can be disabled.

-Score is mission time multiplied by cost. Lowest score wins. 

I think speed vs cost presents some interesting trade offs and design decisions. The holding tank rule adds a further twist and prevents the usual recycled command chair or command pod upper stage designs. I'll wait around 48 hours before creating the thread so that people can have a chance to comment and OP can have a chance to reclaim the idea if they want.

Would anyone be interested in doing this? If not, is there a way to change the proposed rules so you would be interested?

[KosmoNot79]

On 3/26/2019 at 12:52 AM, M_Rat13 said:

@swjr-swis I saw a video of an SSTO that could go from the surface of Kerbin to the surface of Eve and back again.

I fully believe at least one person will figure this out, but it could be a huge pain to figure out. You've got to make a craft that can get off Eve, that carries a vehicle capable of getting from Eve orbit to Tylo orbit, that also has to carry a Tylo lander.

Plus you have to land all of that on Eve to start the race. Would you do that, if you were good enough?

You could capture an asteroid around Eve to mine off of. I got this from one of Bradley Whistance's videos.

[Laie]

36 minutes ago, bayesian_acolyte said:

I think speed vs cost presents some interesting trade offs and design decisions.

Does it? Travel time should scale about linearly with delta-V while rocket mass does not. Mass isn't cost, but they're not entirely unrelated, either.