Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[Zadfield]

It works just fine in the debug version b u t the non-debug variant locks up the joint again https://imgur.com/a/RXbsQAr

[Geonovast]

Got a problem, probably fairly niche, but it seems to be a new issue.

The newer versions don't seem to like the engine plates very much, and I have a feeling it's got something to do with those stupid forced locked autostruts on the engines when you attach them to the plate nodes.

I first noticed it on my Falcon 9-ish rocket on my main install.  On launch the thing would start to roll pretty heavily, with SAS trying its best to fight it.  Initially I thought it was one of the part mods, like KRE or BDB doing it, but after some digging I figured out it was KJR.

I boiled my testing down to a stock + DLC + KJR install.

Basically the engines get twisted and out of alignment when the launch clamps are released.  Not on staging the engines, not on throttle.  I can go back and forth between full and no throttle all day on the clamps, and the engines stay put.  It's when the clamps are released that things break.

Note: This does not happen with KJR-N 4.0.0.  It does in versions after that.  I tried 4.0.3, 4.0.5, 4.0.6, 4.0.8, 4.0.11, 4.0.12, and it occurs in every single one.  Just not 4.0.0

Note where the outer circles of the engines cross.

Clean Stock + DLC (no KJR at all)

No throttle:

Full throttle: (Intersections are fine)

Release clamps: Things are broken!

 

KJR 4.0.0: (Everything's fine)

KJR above 4.0.0: Back to broken

 

Log from the 4.0.12 game in case it'll be helpful: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QYEXNSDRtMthkONr3PiGNu0fLXi3UT4E

[Rudolf Meier]

5 hours ago, Geonovast said:

Got a problem, probably fairly niche, but it seems to be a new issue.

The newer versions don't seem to like the engine plates very much, and I have a feeling it's got something to do with those stupid forced locked autostruts on the engines when you attach them to the plate nodes.

...

Basically the engines get twisted and out of alignment when the launch clamps are released.  Not on staging the engines, not on throttle.  I can go back and forth between full and no throttle all day on the clamps, and the engines stay put.  It's when the clamps are released that things break.

... that's interesting. I will try it myself and maybe I can find out why it happens.

17 hours ago, Zadfield said:

It works just fine in the debug version b u t the non-debug variant locks up the joint again https://imgur.com/a/RXbsQAr

The code is the same. It's not even a copy or something. But really the same... only without the visualization (excluded via preprocessor #if). That's why I cannot imagine this. I will revise the code, but... I don't see why this should happen. Can you send me the craft file? And the list of mods I need for that...

[Zadfield]

I can't seem to message you yet because my account has very low content count. I replicated the problem on a purely stock craft, just with the DLC. https://imgur.com/a/5YFVDnj Craft file here: https://kerbalx.com/Zadfield/Tester

[kcs123]

5 hours ago, Zadfield said:

I can't seem to message you yet because my account has very low content count. I replicated the problem on a purely stock craft, just with the DLC. https://imgur.com/a/5YFVDnj Craft file here: https://kerbalx.com/Zadfield/Tester

IIRC, I have seen some other complains about rotatrons elsewhere on forum. And it seems that issue between KJRn and stock robotic parts are only with rotatrons. Hinges, pistons and other parts seem to work fine. There are also complains with stock only game and rotatrons on certain crafts. Have you tried to use some other robotic part instead of rotatrons ?
 

[Rudolf Meier]

20 hours ago, Geonovast said:

I boiled my testing down to a stock + DLC + KJR install.

oh... I found out, that I don't have this DLC...  

[Geonovast]

2 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

oh... I found out, that I don't have this DLC...  

You don't have Making History?

[Rudolf Meier]

5 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

You don't have Making History?

no... I have the Breakin Grounds only

[Zadfield]

9 hours ago, kcs123 said:

IIRC, I have seen some other complains about rotatrons elsewhere on forum. And it seems that issue between KJRn and stock robotic parts are only with rotatrons. Hinges, pistons and other parts seem to work fine. There are also complains with stock only game and rotatrons on certain crafts. Have you tried to use some other robotic part instead of rotatrons ?
 

Yes, I can confirm that other parts work perfectly fine, the hinges, rotors, and pistons work just fine. 

[Rudolf Meier]

after a long investigation, it is now clear, that the problem with the engine plates is standard ksp behaviour

I did also a lot of tests with the robotic parts and cannot see the problems reported

 

But we had the release of 1.7.2 and it introduced new events. Now it's clear where KSP is heading to and it was possible to do a major update. Additional to this I made sure that KJR is really compatible with all versions from 1.4 to the latest (I made a lot of tests). All this has been included in the new version.

 

4.0.13 is available now

[Iso-Polaris]

On 6/15/2019 at 7:54 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

after a long investigation, it is now clear, that the problem with the engine plates is standard ksp behaviour

I did also a lot of tests with the robotic parts and cannot see the problems reported

 

But we had the release of 1.7.2 and it introduced new events. Now it's clear where KSP is heading to and it was possible to do a major update. Additional to this I made sure that KJR is really compatible with all versions from 1.4 to the latest (I made a lot of tests). All this has been included in the new version.

 

4.0.13 is available now

I found out stock autostrut might cause performance issue, so I find this mod. Would it have better frame rate compare to using stock autostrut?

[Rudolf Meier]

14 minutes ago, Iso-Polaris said:

I found out stock autostrut might cause performance issue, so I find this mod. Would it have better frame rate compare to using stock autostrut?

It is the goal to have more realistic stability at the lowest impact in performance. But the project isn't completely finished yet (I'm still working on improvements, mainly performance improvements). That's why I haven't measuered it yet... so, unfortunatelly I cannot give you a clear answer at the moment.

[Melfice]

I am sorry to report that I have the same issue as Zadfield.

When using KJR Next, my rotational servos won't work. (To be fair, I haven't tested them when they aren't clipped through other parts, but...)
However, when I use the debug version, the servos work just fine.

I have no means to upload a craft right this moment, but I will try to do so very soon.

[Rudolf Meier]

9 hours ago, Melfice said:

I am sorry to report that I have the same issue as Zadfield.

When using KJR Next, my rotational servos won't work. (To be fair, I haven't tested them when they aren't clipped through other parts, but...)
However, when I use the debug version, the servos work just fine.

I have no means to upload a craft right this moment, but I will try to do so very soon.

Well... it's not that I don't believe it... and I have it still on my list as "unresolved" (I'm never closing cases just because I didn't find out what it was). But I wasn't able to reproduce it currently... also not with the ships I got from users reporting this. That's why I cannot say anything about it currently... sorry... but, thanks for reporting it.

I could imagine, that it has to do with timing... maybe one version is quicker and does see an other situation... can you try to lock/unlock the servos and tell me if it still exists then? Or going to time warp for a short period and see if it happens also after that? ... those 2 actions would trigger a rebuild of the joints... maybe we can find out something when you play with those?

[Tincan70]

I discover that this Mod causes my ship landing gear to bounce severely and cause my ship to eventually explode.  Joint Reinforcement Next v 4.0.13 with KSP version 1.7.2.2556 with Making History and Breaking Ground Expansions.  I also tried Joint Reinforcement Continued and same issue, version 3.4.1

Hope you can fix it, I do like this mod

Thank you,

[Rudolf Meier]

3 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

I discover that this Mod causes my ship landing gear to bounce severely ...

When landing? This mod isn't touching the landing legs or gears at all. I don't see how this would be possible...

[kcs123]

10 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

Joint Reinforcement Next v 4.0.13 with KSP version 1.7.2.2556 with Making History and Breaking Ground Expansions. 

Are you using engine mount plates from Making History ? There was several reports that those plates cause issue even without KJR. It may be possible that due to autostruting on engine plates KJR not work as expected.

[Tincan70]

6 hours ago, kcs123 said:

Are you using engine mount plates from Making History ? There was several reports that those plates cause issue even without KJR. It may be possible that due to autostruting on engine plates KJR not work as expected.

I did not use any engine mount plates.  I used the LT-1 Landing Struts with same ship to test.  I had these mods installed (Chatter, Kerbal Alarm Clock, memgraph with its dependency from CKan & Joint Reinforcement installed).   Started uninstalling them one by one and when I removed KJR then the bounce was fixed.  So I tried installing KJR Continued by itself and still had the bounce.  Removed it and bounce fixed.  So I then reinstalled all those Mods again without KJR and the bounce was still fixed?  So I concluded KJR was the cause of it?

 

Thanks,

 

[Rudolf Meier]

11 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

I did not use any engine mount plates.  I used the LT-1 Landing Struts with same ship to test.  I had these mods installed (Chatter, Kerbal Alarm Clock, memgraph with its dependency from CKan & Joint Reinforcement installed).   Started uninstalling them one by one and when I removed KJR then the bounce was fixed.  So I tried installing KJR Continued by itself and still had the bounce.  Removed it and bounce fixed.  So I then reinstalled all those Mods again without KJR and the bounce was still fixed?  So I concluded KJR was the cause of it?

 

Thanks,

 

ok... but you forgot to answer one question ... when does it bounce? landing? reloading? time-warp? when you first touch the ground? after a while after touching down? ...

[Tincan70]

16 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

ok... but you forgot to answer one question ... when does it bounce? landing? reloading? time-warp? when you first touch the ground? after a while after touching down? ...

When I first launch a ship it starts bouncing slowly at first and keeps getting bouncier until it bounces too high off the pad and sideways and crashes, probably takes about 10-15 seconds to bounce out of control.  Also bounces the same way when landing on moon.  So right when you launch ship its like the shocks are working like normal with little bounce but each time it bounces it starts getting more and more bounce instead of less bounce?  Very weird and even weirder if It only is happening to me!  Maybe my computer has a Gremlin?

[Jognt]

1 hour ago, Tincan70 said:

When I first launch a ship it starts bouncing slowly at first and keeps getting bouncier until it bounces too high off the pad and sideways and crashes, probably takes about 10-15 seconds to bounce out of control.  Also bounces the same way when landing on moon.  So right when you launch ship its like the shocks are working like normal with little bounce but each time it bounces it starts getting more and more bounce instead of less bounce?  Very weird and even weirder if It only is happening to me!  Maybe my computer has a Gremlin?

Happens with stock too. I just tried it while testing something else. 

Try adding moar wheels. 

Edit: never mind, you meant landing legs, not gear. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Jognt

[Gordon Dry]

Just a guess in the blue, but this Unity vs. KSP floating point vs. integer issue could be the culprit, perhaps?

[Rudolf Meier]

2 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

Just a guess in the blue, but this Unity vs. KSP floating point vs. integer issue could be the culprit, perhaps?

well... if it is, then KJR Next cannot do anything against it

here's why: For every "Part" in a vessel ksp does have a "orgPos" and "orgRot" value... those values are only updated in situations like creation of a ship, loading a ship, docking/undocking (which is in a way a creation) and things like that... so, not very often. Those values contain the position and rotation information a part should have (you can say, it's the blueprint of the vessel). And because they are almost never updated, you can say that you have almost no floating point rounding errors. Now, if KJR Next (and only Next, not the original or continued version -> that is one of the things that makes this version a "Next") needs to reinforce a joint, those joints are reinforced using those values and not the old or current values. So, no matter how often this is done, it is always done the same way round.

And... just as a side note. Infernal Robotics Next and the DLC robotics need to update those orgPos and orgRot values way more often, because they do something that wasn't in the original idea of ksp. Here I can say that Infernal Robotics Next does also have a mechanism to prevent floating point rounding errors, while DLC robotics (as far as I can see from the behaviour and gap buildup over time) does not have such a meachanism (or it doesn't work... at least I can see those gaps building up over time).

Edited June 28, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[Gordon Dry]

If I would have to say anything related, then this:
The game core needs to be fixed finally regarding this floating point error issues.

That's a basic root issue. Like the fiat money system is the basic root issue of all repurposed bovine waste * happening on this planet.

* freedom of speech filter kicked in there

Edited June 28, 2019 by Gordon Dry

[Tincan70]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:31 PM, Jognt said:

Happens with stock too. I just tried it while testing something else. 

Try adding moar wheels. 

Edit: never mind, you meant landing legs, not gear. 

So it is not just happening to me. 

 

On 6/28/2019 at 1:57 PM, Rudolf Meier said:

well... if it is, then KJR Next cannot do anything against it

here's why: For every "Part" in a vessel ksp does have a "orgPos" and "orgRot" value... those values are only updated in situations like creation of a ship, loading a ship, docking/undocking (which is in a way a creation) and things like that... so, not very often. Those values contain the position and rotation information a part should have (you can say, it's the blueprint of the vessel). And because they are almost never updated, you can say that you have almost no floating point rounding errors. Now, if KJR Next (and only Next, not the original or continued version -> that is one of the things that makes this version a "Next") needs to reinforce a joint, those joints are reinforced using those values and not the old or current values. So, no matter how often this is done, it is always done the same way round.

And... just as a side note. Infernal Robotics Next and the DLC robotics need to update those orgPos and orgRot values way more often, because they do something that wasn't in the original idea of ksp. Here I can say that Infernal Robotics Next does also have a mechanism to prevent floating point rounding errors, while DLC robotics (as far as I can see from the behaviour and gap buildup over time) does not have such a meachanism (or it doesn't work... at least I can see those gaps building up over time).

If I recall correctly,  I think it first started when I installed Breaking Ground with the robotic parts, actually the first install none of the rotating parts would work until I re-installed.  I was wondering if it had something to do with the robotic parts in the stock game.  Hopefully KSP fixes it then in the future?

Thank you for the replies