Rational Resources 2.0.7.1 [Jun 20, 2024]

[UltraJohn]

Speaking of changing abundance, I've been waiting a while for the next update to Kcalbeloh planet pack, which the author has said will include support for RR distribution. Since I don't know the estimate, I was thinking I would just start my playthrough and then update later on. Would there be any issues with updating a mod that changes the distributions, mid playthrough/save? I don't exactly know how the stock game saves the information for resource distributions, but I would imagine it has to cache it somewhere, so that it doesn't randomize again the next time you load the game, or no?

 

Also it looks like you haven't pushed the changes for zRecalibrateGoldStandard and Pack_OWR to the latest release yet.  

[JadeOfMaar]

@UltraJohn That's easy enough to do and the author could send me their RR configs, rather than update their own mod just to publish them. RR is just configs so it's not a very large download (except for the demo parts) and can quickly update anytime but Kcalbeloh is a very large download because of its many and quality textures.

I fell asleep on the Gold and OWR configs (which are finished). I have a WIP update to RRNF which adds complexity causes NTJs and eventually NTRs to always have a demand on an onboard EnrU supply, whatever propellant is chosen.

Edited May 26, 2023 by JadeOfMaar
strikethrough

[UltraJohn]

6 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

the author could send me their RR configs, rather than update their own mod just to publish them.

I think it's part of a larger update anyway, but I left a message saying you've offered to include his RR config.

 

[JadeOfMaar]

Release 1.47

• Housekeeping...
• Added support for Kcalbeloh. @Jason Kerman
• Added support for OWR.
• Added ExoFire template for Io-like works. Partially placeholder.

@UltraJohn OWR and Gold Standard should be settled now.

[kurgut]

Hi ! 

Could you describe what the mod compononts : EL Util and EL CRP do ? would I benefit them when using USI-MKS for instance ?

Thank you  

[kurgut]

btw, I tried your suggested patches to make ressources rarer globally/per biome, from few days ago in a test save. But I see no difference... Is it that this maybe doesn't take effect on a ongoing save maybe ?

before :

Spoiler

after :

Spoiler

thanks !

[JadeOfMaar]

7 hours ago, kurgut said:

Hi ! 

Could you describe what the mod compononts : EL Util and EL CRP do ? would I benefit them when using USI-MKS for instance ?

Thank you  

Hi there. EL Utilites contains EL CRP. What it all does, currently, are:

• EL-CRP:

  Quote

  [It] forces Extraplanetary Launchpads' parts, patches and recipes to ignore or cancel the use of that mod's own resources (MetalOre, Metal) and substitute with MetallicOre and Metals (from Community Resource Pack).

  It also forces parts that hold Metal or MetalOre (without the involvement of fuel switch mods) to hold Metals and MetallicOre instead. I don't think MKS can get any benefits from this since it goes further and deals with MaterialKits and SpecializedParts instead of RocketParts. If there is demand, I can make that optional switch but I must ask how USI's own vessel assembly function works and why people prefer EL over it. I don't know it well since I largely stopped using the USI mods a long time ago and wouldn't do well to keep up with USI developments.

• EL-SystemHeat:

  Quote

  [It] adapts any part that uses EL's converter module to use the System Heat mod's variant resource converter module and interact with System Heat loops.

  What it says on the tin. If I need to explain this then I'll rephrase this since it seems to not be clear enough.

 

7 hours ago, kurgut said:

btw, I tried your suggested patches to make ressources rarer globally/per biome, from few days ago in a test save. But I see no difference... Is it that this maybe doesn't take effect on a ongoing save maybe ?

Did you mouseover your maps before and after, and see the abundance percent at a given point? Maybe the abundance changes were sucessful but SCANsat's map visuals didn't change for unknown reasons. Perhaps deleting your MM cache will help. Otherwise there's something I was supposed to think of but didn't for the abundance multiplier patch I showed you how to do (so while it's error-free it was not effective).

[kurgut]

37 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Hi there

Thanks for your detailled answer ! Ok, then I see no utility to make a patch in regards to USI, since everything does/patches work as it should and is coherent imho. Also saves modding time !

39 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Did you mouseover your maps before and after

yes ! That's why, the values were the same, then I'll try to delete the MM cache, and also send a rover to the surface, and cheat it around to confirm the ressource abundance insitu, just to be sure.

Cheers

[kurgut]

Hi again ^^

New iteration of the IFS related conflict, on ore tanks (I believe it was there already when I reported the stock fuel tanks issue, just didn't notice it since I didn't use ore tanks yet)
Same thing, not game breaking afaik

Edited June 6, 2023 by kurgut

[Saturn1234]

I have JNSQ and Kerbalism and want to install Rational Resources. I downloaded it and there are a lot of folders like RationalResourcesCompanion or RationalResourcesKerbalism and RationalResourcesKerbalismRF. I can't figure out what to drag into GameData. Then there's the Extras folder full of stuff. Could someone help me?

[JadeOfMaar]

@Saturn1234 The extras all have a README.md in their folders. These are plain text files so you can read them in any basic text editor, however, they use some amount of wiki markdown so they have some styles and icons and look much better when opened in a markdown viewer or at their GitHub locations in-browser. For example, here's the RationalResourcesBlacksmith folder (and its README in view) on the web.

The core folders names should be self explanatory if you know the names of the other mods, well, except companion. Amusingly, each next item in the list requires the previous.

• RationalResources: Only the resource placement
• RationalResourcesCompanion: All integration setup for ISRU part mods (harvesters, refineries (resource converters), fuel cells and some tanks)
• RationalResourcesKerbalism: All integration setup for ISRU part mods and Kerbalism
• RationalResourcesKerbalismRF: All integration setup for ISRU part mods and Kerbalism with RealFuels options

It's recommended you install the first 3 main folders and also find and install the mod Stockalike Mining Extension for more options for drills, filters and refineries to install onto your ships.

If by chance, you choose to use CKAN then you can read each and every RR mod's short description in there when you click a mod's name.

 

Release 1.48

• Added (missing) Freeze Deuterium option to omniconverters.
• Added Carbon Monoxide fuel tank options in RationalResourcesSquad.
• Added Explodium (Classic Stock) resource definition to cure fatal issue when Classic Stock does not define this resource because Far Future Tech is installed ( @Nori ).
• Updated energy demand in EL System Heat converters in RationalResourcesELUtilities.
• Updated Ore tank integration (to do nothing) when InterstellarFuelSwitch installed ( @kurgut ).
• Updated Silicates and ISRU chains to reflect SiO₄.
• Updated: RationalResourcesBlacksmith:
  • To apply its changes late in MM runtime in order to allow NTRs affected by RationalResourcesNuclearFamily to get nuclear fuel refill and nuclear waste disposal options.
  • To prevent inserting duplicate work or furnace factor tags into parts (in case of parts that specify their own factor).
  • Rebalances with respect to System Heat mechanics and ThermalPower now being treated as Megajoules or Megawatts by Rational Resources.
  • Updated detection of CRP vs Classic Stock.
• Updated RationalResourcesNuclearFamily:
  • Added Bluedog Design Bureau to opt-in. (selection by @dangaffa )
  • Added SpaceTux Recycled Parts: FTmN Atomic Rockets to opt-in.
  • Added SpaceTux Recycled Parts: LVN Clusters to opt-in.
  • Moved CO propellant option to Reducing Agent side.
  • Updated detection to only apply to engines that use ModuleEnginesFX.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by JadeOfMaar

[JadeOfMaar]

Nuclear engine behavior

I've been stirring up a big update to RRNF. What it does is it brings forward the idea of having an NTR be primarily a heat source and secondarily an engine. Here, the reactor's first resource converter module produces hundreds of megawatts of thermal energy but can only hold enough for 1 or 2 seconds of burn time. Ideally, as far as I know, the same amount of thermal energy is required by the engine to accelerate the player's choice of propellant so I'm working on that. The engine should never try to use more ThermalPower resource that it produces. A second module replaces the alternator but has a low output and low efficiency. Next, engine heat production is lowered because the idea of overheating the part is changed from "the risk of melting things off" to "the risk of causing the primary converter to overheat and weaken or shutdown (which may count as the SCRAM event), disabling the engine." Most of the reactor's heat goes out with the exhaust anyway so it doesn't make all that much sense to me that the engine is trying to melt itself after a long burn and that stockalike mods follow this idea.

I say "bring forward" as this approach to NTR behavior was once brought into KSP through NF Electric but now lives in System Heat. In my case, this dodges the need for a mod dll and happens to give more use to NFE's thermal/electric planner for folks who use NFE but not System Heat.

I'm trying this because of my intense interest in thermal nozzle engines which are purported to provide the same great thrust as chemical sustainer engines and better baseline Isp than what stock KSP sets one's expectations for. Also, I seek to use this behavior for ther thermal nozzle engines I will provide in Sterling Systems.

There is one, just one, big problem with this, though. Between Squad's dV calculator and KER, KER only calculates properly when a ship is launched/flying. (I don't use MechJeb so no answer here.) The calculators only account for the amount of thermal energy resource that's in the ship at the time and will only report anywhere < 100 m/s. This suggests that the behavior [when an engine requests ElectricCharge, KSP doesn't care how much there is, and dV calculators give true, high numbers] is hardcoded to the ElectricCharge resource and is not friendly to other massless resources. (I've been informed that, supposedly, KSPIE fixes this for its ThermalPower resource. That would be really nice to have without KSPIE attached.) I tend to not build very big so I can put up with doing test launches to see dV but I expect most players might not be inclined to put up with it. I'd have to keep this to myself or include a dummy part which includes a zillion ThermalPower so I can skip the test launching.

[UltraJohn]

So I just gave RRNuclearFamily a go because I like the idea of having multiple options of fuel choices.

A suggestion: Would it not be possible to consolidate the Oxidating Agent and Reducing Agent variants into one, so as to avoid cluttering up the VAB with multiple identical looking parts? Or is there a reason these are separated? (Apart from oxygen lol)

Also, the stock nuclear engine NERV isn't included for some reason?

Edited June 21, 2023 by UltraJohn

[JadeOfMaar]

@UltraJohn The single reason (yeah) for separate engines is that realistically™ the engine core needs a special treatment for propellants which could easily release their Oxygen under extreme heat and that the Oxygen would want to bond with, and compromise the core structure.Since I learned Carbon Monoxide doesn't count as one of these and I moved it over to the Reducing Agent side, CO2 and Water are looking pretty lonely by themselves now.

The stock NERV isn't included because everyone mods it so I don't want to risk conflicting with those mods.

[UltraJohn]

26 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The single reason (yeah) for separate engines is that realistically™ the engine core needs a special treatment for propellants which could easily release their Oxygen under extreme heat and that the Oxygen would want to bond with, and compromise the core structure.Since I learned Carbon Monoxide doesn't count as one of these and I moved it over to the Reducing Agent side, CO2 and Water are looking pretty lonely by themselves now.

Ah, so gameplay wise it makes sense that due to the difference in the engine core, it wouldn't make sense to be able to swap the fuel type between these two in flight without replacing the engine.

So it's not possible to combine them into one swappable entity in the VAB but still limit the fuel choices to either [O] or [R] in flight? It would certainly help my very slight OCD of seeing duplicated parts in the VAB  

[JadeOfMaar]

1 hour ago, UltraJohn said:

Ah, so gameplay wise it makes sense that due to the difference in the engine core, it wouldn't make sense to be able to swap the fuel type between these two in flight without replacing the engine.

So it's not possible to combine them into one swappable entity in the VAB but still limit the fuel choices to either [O] or [R] in flight? It would certainly help my very slight OCD of seeing duplicated parts in the VAB  

Yep. It wouldn't make sense to so conveniently swap the engine core or its protective coating if you decided to go Hydrogen -> Water -> Hydrogen.

Nope. B9PS allows for having some choices be available only in flight or only in editor, but it doesn't allow for restricting and changing sub-options based on the selection of a parent option. You're going to have to live with your "very slight" OCD. lol

[UltraJohn]

Just now, JadeOfMaar said:

Nope. B9PS allows for having some choices be available only in flight or only in editor, but it doesn't allow for restricting and changing sub-options based on the selection of a parent option. You're going to have to live with your "very slight" OCD. lol

Welp, I figured that would be the case with B9. It's not a big deal, so I can live with it. I was just mainly curious as to why it was like that, but it makes sense now. Thanks for the insight 

[UltraJohn]

Hmm, so I'm trying to track down a conflict between RRCompanion patch for the Stockalike mining extension ISRU parts and the mod Global Construction's ISRU patch.

The issue being that GC adds an "Ore Smelter" option to stock and SMX parts via this cfg, but it looks like the patch from RRCompanion is overwriting and deleting the SMX specific parts "Ore Smelter".

As you can see here, these parts without RR installed has the option available:

Spoiler

But after installing RR, only the stock ISRU has the ore smelter:

Spoiler

Also strangely enough, the SMX parts have a lot less converter options, which might also be a potential bug? It seems like the stock parts still have the stock converter options on top of the RR options, e.g. "Start ISRU [Lf+Ox]" and "Start ISRU [RR LFO]" which may also explain why the Ore Smelter is missing from SMX (RR is deleting all existing converters on SMX parts only?)

Edited August 1, 2023 by UltraJohn

[JadeOfMaar]

@UltraJohn The reason why the SMX parts lack options and the squad parts still have Global Construction's added module is that there is a patch that runs very late and makes sure (for parts that aren't stock) to delete converter options that aren't RR. The logic is that every ISRU mod patches the stock parts so let those parts be a mess and avoid fighting over them, but do cleanup on any affected mod parts. The reason why the SMX parts lack heavily in options is that the stock options (4), the options added by CryoTanks (4), and any others get removed, for a total of 8+ options.

There's an omniconverter option for MaterialKits (and for SpecializedParts) here: OmniconvertersCRP.cfg#L2355. Critique is welcome. Note that inputs are fairly non-basic and throughput is much faster to compensate and keep them attractive. They're not "Ore into anything" like Global Construction or other stockalike mods do. These options are not provided by default (without need of the WBI mods) because RR is firstly concerned with fuel production and LS production, and isn't currently imposing itself on Keridian Dynamics or the like (an accessory parts pack for ship production) like it is for SMX (an accessory parts pack for typical ISRU needs).

[UltraJohn]

@JadeOfMaar Thanks for the explanation. So it is the intended behavior then. I personally would prefer the consistency of having all parts have the same options, to avoid accidentally not realizing the part I added to a vessel doesn't have the stock/GC options, but I can accept this decision by you, and thus I will just try and remember that.

Ok so I did see the patch for the Omniconverter, but it does require WildBlueTools to work. I've actually been removing some mods lately due to the longer and longer loading times and lag, so I'd prefer to avoid installing more.

I was thinking of taking your MaterialKits patch for the Omniconverter and patching that into the ISRU parts themselves, replacing the existing Ore smelter option with this. Since I don't like the Ore to MaterialKits option anyway, that's fine. It should in theory be possible to add this into to your existing Opt-In Convert-O-Tron patch and take advantage of the already set RRPower config for the ratio scaling, yes? Only problem I can see is that it doesn't scale ElectricCharge?  What are your thoughts on this?

[JadeOfMaar]

10 minutes ago, UltraJohn said:

I was thinking of taking your MaterialKits patch for the Omniconverter and patching that into the ISRU parts themselves, replacing the existing Ore smelter option with this. Since I don't like the Ore to MaterialKits option anyway, that's fine. It should in theory be possible to add this into to your existing Opt-In Convert-O-Tron patch and take advantage of the already set RRPower config for the ratio scaling, yes? Only problem I can see is that it doesn't scale ElectricCharge?  What are your thoughts on this?

Your theory is correct. It should just work as that's how it's set up. I'll do something about the power scaling bug. About Global Construction, should I do something about that and publish, or treat this as a case of "this is your play style, only you need this" ?

[UltraJohn]

17 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

About Global Construction, should I do something about that and publish, or treat this as a case of "this is your play style, only you need this" ?

I think it would be cool to have it included, since as you say "Ore into anything" is not really rational, so making it part of this mod using Metals and Minerals would make it more rational!  

I've tried making a very basic patch just basically copy pasting the setup from the omniconverter, putting it into this cfg, and while it does show up ingame, it's still only showing up on stock parts, and somehow is having two inputs for ElectricCharge. Also the ratios need to be tuned properly!

Edit: oh I see why there's double EC, it's copying the one from Basic as well.

	// Global Construction MaterialKits
	
	+MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter]:HAS[#ConverterName[Basic]]:NEEDS[GroundConstruction]
	{
		@ConverterName = MaterialKits // using moles
		@StartActionName = Start ISRU [MaterialKits]
		@StopActionName = Stop ISRU [MaterialKits]
		@ToggleActionName = Toggle ISRU [MaterialKits]
		
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = ElectricCharge
			Ratio = 90
			FlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Minerals
			Ratio = 0.16
			FlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Metals
			Ratio = 0.16
			FlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
		}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = MaterialKits
			Ratio = 0.4 // 23.8% useful output by mass; prefering less decimal precision
			FlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
		}
	}

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by UltraJohn

[JadeOfMaar]

Release 1.49

• Added Konstruction (Equipment, Minerals, Metals) storage template for WBI template system. This goes with RR Equipment formula.
• Added RR MaterialKits option for Convert-O-Trons. (This currently only appears if Global Construction installed.)
• Fixed ElectricCharge scaling issue in Convert-O-Trons.
• Renamed some converter options (added "RR" prefix) to add distinction vs standard/other formulas.
• Updated RationalResourcesELUtilities:
  • Added EL-to-CRP handling for WBI template system. Written by @0xE1E10 on GitHub.
• Updated Kcalbeloh resource placement config: A planet was internally renamed.

 

@UltraJohn Let me know how things go. Penny for your thoughts: If there was an all-new ISRU part in RR Parts that could fill a large gameply hole or it reflects an ISRU feature you like in other games, what would you have it be?

[Kerman Exploder]

Oh hi. I'm that E1E10 guy oh GitHub. :-) What are your thoughts on SandCastle using Ore that is now rare in RR? I saw your comment on the other thread.

It seems easy to replace Ore with MetallicOre just like ELUtilities. But I noticed a few planet templates have Ore but no MetallicOre . They don't have any MetalOre neither. So I guess EL is equally dead on those planets. Do we do the replacement anyways and say well maybe you shouldn't be able to dig up a block of ice from this ice planet and make spacecraft from it? Or do we say yeah it should still use rare Ore because the original SandCastle is making it too irrationally easy? Looks like SandCastle allows adjusting the rate. But it cannot be less than 1. Or we could use MetallicOre for SandCastle but add a converter to convert Ore to MetallicOre for the ice planets. So construction on ice planets are just hard, not impossible. There are a lot of tradeoffs between being rational and game balance here.

[UltraJohn]

11 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

• Added RR MaterialKits option for Convert-O-Trons. (This currently only appears if Global Construction installed.)

Seems to be working fine. I checked a few different ISRU's both stock and SMX and the ratio scaling looks good. Thank you!

 

11 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Penny for your thoughts: If there was an all-new ISRU part in RR Parts that could fill a large gameply hole or it reflects an ISRU feature you like in other games, what would you have it be?

Sorry, I honestly have no idea  I did have a random thought yesterday about how someone would be able to add supply lines to KSP, so as to be able to combine multiple bases scattered around a planet, with each harvesting its own type of resource. I was thinking something along the lines of conveyor belts or pipes from Factorio/Satisfactory.

The gameplay mechanic for setting up the connection would basically be having a special type of port on your base that you plug into, then drive a rover over to the other base and plug into that port as well. Then it would calculate the cost of resources (like metal pipes would use metal and maybe some other things) depending on the distance. Once you "pay" those resources the link gets created and activates.

The rover is there to simulate laying the foundation, conveyors/pipes along the ground while you drive, so as to avoid you just changing vessel from the tracking station to skip the drive. Graphically it might be a bit troublesome to create physical parts that follow along the ground of the planets between bases, so it could just be created "underground."  

Sooo if anyone gets inspired by this, feel free to steal my idea and improve upon it!