What Happened to the Low-Flight Biome Science?

[Geschosskopf]

Last time I played KSP, you could run all the experiments (except the seismometer) in atmospheric flight and in low orbit over every biome individually.  Thus, very early in the game, you could make a simple jet and tour the region around KSC getting reports over each new biome.  A bit later, before you were quite ready to land on Mun or Minmus, you could get into a low polar orbit and get data over every biome there and Kerbin, too.

But now, all this is gone.  Instead, you have a single per-planet thing:  "In flight over Kerbin" or "In space near Kerbin/Mun/Minmus".  One and done, no matter where you go.  This has basically reduced the size of the science harvest by half and REALLY makes the early game a real grind.

So, when did this change, and why?  I'm not a fan 

 

[Superfluous J]

You are remembering wrong, I believe. Unless the last time you played was like 0.23 and *I* am remembering wrong.

Each experiment has its own set of places it can be run uniquely. Some are more and some are less restrictive. I do not believe the actual categories of what is and is not restricted have changed since... 0.90? 1.0?

[Serenity]

Crew Report/Eva Report for Biomes only change at Low Orbit.

Gravmax tests for Biomes are done in both Low and High Orbits.

Atmosphere Tests for each biome are done in both below and above the borders.

Thats what i found prior to DLC, hopefully nothing changed.

Uhh probably some more info for other experiments but thats how far i gone soooo  .

[bewing]

You might want to check the wiki. Some experiments in low flight are per-biome (crew reports, EVA, variometer, and temp) -- but all the others are one-shots (except gravity and seismometer, which you can't run at all).

Low orbit is similar. Crew reports, EVA, and graviolis are per-biome. Nothing else.

Edited June 10, 2019 by bewing

[Geschosskopf]

3 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

You are remembering wrong, I believe. Unless the last time you played was like 0.23 and *I* am remembering wrong.

Last time I played seriously was Feb 2018, so 1.5 years ago, back in KSP 1.3.1  In those days, you could still get Goo and Materials in flight and per biome in atmospheric flight and in low orbit.  I've got the pics to prove it ;).  This is in addition to 3 of the 4 small instruments, plus crew and EVA reports.

So as recently as then, your original sub-30-part, dirt-runway-using plane could at least go around getting crew reports BOTH in flight and on the ground in every biome within range.  If you had the OKTO probe core already, you could also incorporate a Science Jr and a Goo, plus thermometer and barometer, and fly it with a scientist who could reload these instruments after landing in each biome.

 

3 hours ago, Boyster said:

Crew Report/Eva Report for Biomes only change at Low Orbit.

Gravmax tests for Biomes are done in both Low and High Orbits.

Atmosphere Tests for each biome are done in both below and above the borders.

Thats what i found prior to DLC, hopefully nothing changed.

Uhh probably some more info for other experiments but thats how far i gone soooo  .

 

1 hour ago, bewing said:

You might want to check the wiki. Some experiments in low flight are per-biome (crew reports, variometer, and temp) -- but all the others are one-shots (except gravity and seismometer, which you can't run at all).

Low orbit is similar. Crew reports, EVA, and graviolis are per-biome. Nothing else.

Well, some of that's a change since last I played.  As mentioned, used to be everything that didn't require being on the ground worked per biome in flight, and every thing that didn't require the ground or an atmosphere worked per biome in low orbit.

Now, NOTHING AT ALL works per-biome except when landed or splashed down.  Not even crew reports.  In 1.7.1, crew reports in flight say "While in flight over Kerbin" instead of "While in flight over Kerbin's (BIOME)".  Same for low orbit.  "While In space near Mun" instead of "While in space over Mun's (BIOME)".

So basically, between 1.3.1 and 1.7.1, about 1/2 the total amount of science available to the player has disappeared.  Its replacements don't fill that vast gap.  Now we have the deployable science that only kinda sorta works with lots of weird math for a max of about 1 week before the Kraken eats it, and doesn't do much for you while it still kinda sorta works.  And we have rover arms that potentially yield mondo science except that's luck of the draw and  also highly dependent on other technology you can't really get until you already have a fair amount of science.  And we have an additional type of surface sample to bring home, again highly dependent on luck of the draw.

I'm not liking these changes.  At all.  The grind is so greatly increased that I find jacking the science and cash rewards up to 300% is only barely tolerable and still results in a lot of boring, stupid, repetitive missions.  You must have quite a lot of tech already even to attempt the needle-in-a-haystack quest for ROCs with a rover capable of the job on a rocket capable of getting it there, whether you go to Mun (lots of ROCs but needs a bigger rocket) or Minmus (less rocket but WAY less ROCs).

Oh, and what happened to the asteroid contracts?  My tracking station is maxed out and I have the claw and SENTINEL camera.  I see asteroids but not 1 contract relating to them or the SENTINEL.  what?  The SENTINEL contracts used to be my cash cow, to finance my huge late-game expeditions.  Now I can't even get one to get to the late game, let alone just a "Bring a Class A into Kerbin orbit."  

[Superfluous J]

20 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Now, NOTHING AT ALL works per-biome except when landed or splashed down.  Not even crew reports.  In 1.7.1, crew reports in flight say "While in flight over Kerbin" instead of "While in flight over Kerbin's (BIOME)".  Same for low orbit.  "While In space near Mun" instead of "While in space over Mun's (BIOME)".

I just launched a totally stock game in KSP 1.7.1 and in Science mode launched a ship and ran a crew report and EVA report while flying over Kerbin's shores. I got the two reports for flying over shores. not flying at Kerbin.

[Geschosskopf]

5 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I just launched a totally stock game in KSP 1.7.1 and in Science mode launched a ship and ran a crew report and EVA report while flying over Kerbin's shores. I got the two reports for flying over shores. not flying at Kerbin.

Hmmm.  Well, I was playing career.  Maybe that's one of the differences?

[Superfluous J]

11 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Hmmm.  Well, I was playing career.  Maybe that's one of the differences?

I don't think so. It's never been said or observed before.

In my career game's archives I have those plus temperature and atmospheric science flying over shores. I use ForScience there so I can guarantee that those are the only ones that count for that, but as my game's modded I can't guarantee there's nothing that changed how science works.

 

[Geschosskopf]

1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

I don't think so. It's never been said or observed before.

In my career game's archives I have those plus temperature and atmospheric science flying over shores. I use ForScience there so I can guarantee that those are the only ones that count for that, but as my game's modded I can't guarantee there's nothing that changed how science works.

Well, I can say that playing a new, pristine, vanilla 1.7.1 career game, you get zero per-biome science in flight and low orbit, only once per planet.  I tried this at Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, same results everywhere.  Everything was "...near/over (Planet)", not "... near/over (Planet)'s (Biome)".

[Superfluous J]

1 minute ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, I can say that playing a new, pristine, vanilla 1.7.1 career game, you get zero per-biome science in flight and low orbit, only once per planet.  I tried this at Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, same results everywhere.  Everything was "...near/over (Planet)", not "... near/over (Planet)'s (Biome)".

I 100% guarantee you that that's not normal.

I know this because I've wanted it for years.

It sounds like somehow you don't have the biome maps, and also somehow didn't crash because you don't have the biome maps.

Maybe validate the game files in Steam or reinstall if you bought it from the store?

[bewing]

1 hour ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, I can say that playing a new, pristine, vanilla 1.7.1 career game, you get zero per-biome science in flight and low orbit, only once per planet.  I tried this at Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, same results everywhere.  Everything was "...near/over (Planet)", not "... near/over (Planet)'s (Biome)".

Validate your download, because your game files are corrupt.

 

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, I can say that playing a new, pristine, vanilla 1.7.1 career game, you get zero per-biome science in flight and low orbit, only once per planet.  I tried this at Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, same results everywhere.  Everything was "...near/over (Planet)", not "... near/over (Planet)'s (Biome)".

Below is a screenshot of some EVA and gravity reports just over a few Mun biomes. I am also playing a new 1.71 career game.

1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

Maybe validate the game files in Steam or reinstall if you bought it from the store?

That's what I'd be doing.

Asteroid contracts still exist too although I've noticed that the rewards seem to be lower and the required orbit never changes.

[Geschosskopf]

2 minutes ago, bewing said:

Validate your download, because your game files are corrupt.

 

Just now, mystifeid said:

That's what I'd be doing.

Well, I did that already, when I 1st noticed this problem several days ago, before I started this question, and it said all was fine.  And while I've been quite drunk at times while playing both before and since, I've also been quite sober in between.  I know, I should drink more so as to have consistent observations but I have this weakness for sobriety    Anyway, if this was a corrupt file issue, I doubt it would be so seamless.  Not only do you not the get the same science as before from various biomes but the message text is like that was never possible to begin with.

So at the bottom line, I really don't know what to believe.  The senses are demonstrably fallable so perhaps my pod in the Matrix is running a beta  version of the next update?

Just now, mystifeid said:

Asteroid contracts still exist too although I've noticed that the rewards seem to be lower and the required orbit never changes.

Well, that's nice to know.  What makes these contracts appear?

[mystifeid]

6 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, that's nice to know.  What makes these contracts appear?

I'm not sure about other requirements but I've always started getting sentinel contracts after researching/buying the telescope. (Lvl 2 tracking station was ok in this game at least)

[Geschosskopf]

3 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

I'm not sure about other requirements but I've always started getting sentinel contracts after researching/buying the telescope. (Lvl 2 tracking station was ok in this game at least)

I got the telescope for the other things on that node long before I landed on either Mun or Minums.  Yet no SENTINEL ccntracts.  And I got the Klaw about the same time, yet no asteroid redirect contracts at all.  I have recently started getting contracts to recover debris, however.

[bewing]

Something, somehow is messed up in your game, though. You may want to delete some folders -- maybe the entire gamedata folder -- and revalidate.

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

Something, somehow is messed up in your game, though. You may want to delete some folders -- maybe the entire gamedata folder -- and revalidate.

Well, I must amend what I said above.  EVA reports, and ONLY EVA reports, remain per biome in low flight.  But NOTHING else.  So I must have been too sober too long when I said there was nothing that still did per-biome reports at low orbit or when in flight.  I was wrong.  EVA reports still do.  HOWEVER, given that my install is fresh and pristine, and Steam says it's all OK, I must question the validity of your own installation.  Either that or you don't drink enough.

Both halves of the above pic were taken less than 1 second apart while cruising a fully equipped ship in a 12km polar orbit above Mun.  I hit the action group that triggered every on-ship experiment and then bracketed over to the Kerbal who'd been on hanging on the ladder for several days and did an EVA report.  NOTHING triggered by the action group, which included crew report, Materials, Goo, and all 3 space-capable "light" instruments, showed as per-biome, only per-planet, so that was all wasted and reset.  Again.  For the umpteenth time on this mission, tested over every single Mun biome.  Only the EVA report made new data

[bewing]

Are you always testing this with action groups? How about individual button clicks? Action groups got modified a lot in this recent update -- I can imagine they might not be working right.

And this being a career game you are playing -- do you have the gravioli detector yet?

And yeah, I guess I was wrong about crew reports working in low orbit. It's just graviolis and EVA reports. But it's been that way a long time.

I was more concerned about what you said about about "in flight" in atmosphere.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by bewing

[mystifeid]

Crew reports are not per biome when taken low over the Mun. But they are when taken low over Kerbin.

Low over the Mun the per biome reports that are possible are EVA reports and gravity scans.

Low over Kerbin the per biome reports that are possible are crew reports, EVA reports and temperature scans. ( All three types of reports have 3 levels - high, near and flying over [biome]  Wrong again. Temperature scans and Crew reports have four levels - high, near, upper atmo and flying over [biome] - and are per biome only in the lowest level. EVA reports also have four levels - high, space just above [biome], upper atmo and flying over [biome] - but are per biome at two levels - while in space just above and flying over. ). Given the number of edits received by this post, it's quite possibly still wrong. If so, c'est la vie.

Edited June 10, 2019 by mystifeid

[Zhetaan]

@Geschosskopf:

Your screenshot shows science taken in low space, not low flight.  There is a difference:  flight requires an atmosphere, and the experiment availability is not copied from one situation to the other.

It's also the case that crew reports are and have always been once-per-planet in low and high space, but once-per-biome in low flight.  I do not recall about high flight.  EVA reports, on the other hand, are once-per-biome in low space.

I will throw out the possibility that you do not have corrupt save files but rather a forgotten Module Manager patch.  I patch the experiments myself (thermometer readings are numbers; why can't they be transmitted for full value?  What's this nonsense about getting biome-specific science just by being outside the capsule in space?  And so on), so if you did the same and installed on top of an old version, then that would explain what you're seeing.

[Geschosskopf]

7 hours ago, bewing said:

Are you always testing this with action groups? How about individual button clicks? Action groups got modified a lot in this recent update -- I can imagine they might not be working right.

How does that make a difference?  The one action group has the activation commands for every instrument on the ship.  When I use the action group, all the instruments do their thing.  I don't see how this would alter how the instruments function.

7 hours ago, bewing said:

And this being a career game you are playing -- do you have the gravioli detector yet?

Yup.  And it doesn't work per-biome in low orbit, either.  The only instrument I haven't tried in low orbit is the atmosphere analyzer because i1) t's never worked in space even though the barometer does, and 2) I researched it after this munship was built because I find airplanes useless in career, especially now that they get no per-biome flying science..

7 hours ago, bewing said:

And yeah, I guess I was wrong about crew reports working in low orbit. It's just graviolis and EVA reports. But it's been that way a long time.

I was more concerned about what you said about about "in flight" in atmosphere.

It's the same thing there.  Crew reports and the rest are no longer per-biome while in flight.

 

 

7 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Crew reports are not per biome when taken low over the Mun. But they are when taken low over Kerbin.

Low over the Mun the per biome reports that are possible are EVA reports and gravity scans.

Low over Kerbin the per biome reports that are possible are crew reports, EVA reports and temperature scans. ( All three types of reports have 3 levels - high, near and flying over [biome]  Wrong again. Temperature scans and Crew reports have four levels - high, near, upper atmo and flying over [biome] - and are per biome only in the lowest level. EVA reports also have four levels - high, space just above [biome], upper atmo and flying over [biome] - but are per biome at two levels - while in space just above and flying over. ). Given the number of edits received by this post, it's quite possibly still wrong. If so, c'est la vie.

 

10 minutes ago, Zhetaan said:

@Geschosskopf:

Your screenshot shows science taken in low space, not low flight.  There is a difference:  flight requires an atmosphere, and the experiment availability is not copied from one situation to the other.

It's also the case that crew reports are and have always been once-per-planet in low and high space, but once-per-biome in low flight.  I do not recall about high flight.  EVA reports, on the other hand, are once-per-biome in low space.

Yes, I myself was under the belief that essentially every experiment worked per-biome both in flight and in low orbit, due to them always having done so in the past.  That's why I'm complaining now that they don't.

For example, the crew report, temperature, and pressure DO NOT work per-biome in low atmospheric flight anymore.  I discovered this a few days ago when I started this new save.  As usual, I had a few contracts to do these 3 things while flying over several places on KSC's continent.  As is my habit and custom, I built a sub-30-part jet with the thermometer and barometer on it and took the opportunity of these contracts to fly over ever biome in the region:  water, shores, grasslands, highlands, and mountains.  But all I got was reports saying "in flight over Kerbin", not per-biome.

AFAIK, the upper atmosphere as never been per-biome.  If it ever was, it isn't now.  I found this out about the same time, when I got a rocket over 30km.

 

10 minutes ago, Zhetaan said:

I will throw out the possibility that you do not have corrupt save files but rather a forgotten Module Manager patch.  I patch the experiments myself (thermometer readings are numbers; why can't they be transmitted for full value?  What's this nonsense about getting biome-specific science just by being outside the capsule in space?  And so on), so if you did the same and installed on top of an old version, then that would explain what you're seeing.

I'm 99.99999999% certain I have no leftovers from mods in this installation.  I'm playing with my Steam installation here, which is pristine.  Back about 1.0, when things were quite chaotic, I deleted all mods out of my Steam installation, then through Steam did the "delete local files" and then re-installed KSP.  Since then, my Steam installation has always been mod-free and allowed to auto-update.  When I want to use mods, I copy the Steam installation to a separate folder and install mods over there.  So now I have separate installations for everything from 1.0.5 to 1.3.1, each of which has the mods that worked in those versions.  But the Steam installation I'm using for this particular game is clean.

 

 

 

[Geschosskopf]

OK, I just returned from Mun and came down in grasslands near the north pole.  On the way down, I got a crew report "flying over Kerbin's grasslands" and then another once on the ground.

So it's 1 of 2 things.

1) I was totally mistaken in my opinions above, or

2) Things work differently around KSC than elsewhere on Kerbin.

Probably #1.

Anyway, sorry for the bother.

[Fraktal]

The KSC doesn't have flying situations. You're either landed in the specific biome, or flying low above Kerbin's shores.