Rosatom rocket engine failure

[Cheif Operations Director]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:24 PM, lajoswinkler said:

The fact you guys take Russian official claims literally is hilarious. First they said nothing happened. Then they said nothing dangerous escaped into the environment. Then they say "isotopic power source, like a battery". Hilarious.

They obviously blew up a faulty engine and damaged a very small fission reactor which fell into the sea. There was probably xenon-135 seeping out which caused a spike of ionizing radiation. It's painfully obvious.

Yes

[DDE]

9 hours ago, farmerben said:

And we know the Russians are capable of making things with it. 

Like the heater in this thing:

@lajoswinkler, who is this “they”? It is my understanding that

• the Ministry of Defence has not yet contradicted its own statements as to the lack of release of radioactivity;
• Severodvinsk authorities have deleted all statements as to the radiation levels, and have been silent ever since;
• the claims about RTGs come from Rosatom;
• and the radiation levels come from the weather guys at RosHydroMet.

[kerbiloid]

59 minutes ago, DDE said:

the claims about RTGs come from Rosatom;

Rosatom even haven't said RTG. It just mentions something nuclear, nothing more.
They could say "nuclear reactor" meaning RTG, because a next-door random noname doesn't care about the difference.

So, I'm afraid that hilarious are those who make conclusions based on the currently published info.

Edited August 15, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Guest]

The "isotopic power source" statement clearly evokes an RTG. A reactor can hardly be described as a "battery". For an RTG, this description is much closer to truth. The people at Rosatom, I think, would know the difference between one and the other.

14 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Exposed RTG would only leak volatiles if the source was Pu-238, as one of the daughter radionuclides was Rn-222. Still, amounts of Rn-222 produced are small (there is an equilibrium in a closed system) and most of it is trapped in the matrix of PuO₂.

Cracking open such source would not cause 16 times elevated ionizing radiation 33 km away. It would be like that experiment where thorium compound is held in a closed bottle and then the air with traces of radon is puffed into a cloud chamber to see the decays. That's nothing.

Plutonium, whether a ceramic oxide or a bulk metal, is not something that oozes radon like radium does. Otherwise it would be impossible to work with it using present safety protocols.

Assuming it used Plutonium. While I was using it to explain how RTG can use fissile materials (as it's well known to be usable in reactors), most Russian RTGs don't actually use plutonium. Sr-90 is typically used in Russian RTGs, and also happens to be a dangerous component of nuclear explosion fallout. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Guest

[lajoswinkler]

6 hours ago, DDE said:

 

@lajoswinkler, who is this “they”? It is my understanding that

• the Ministry of Defence has not yet contradicted its own statements as to the lack of release of radioactivity;
• Severodvinsk authorities have deleted all statements as to the radiation levels, and have been silent ever since;
• the claims about RTGs come from Rosatom;
• and the radiation levels come from the weather guys at RosHydroMet.

Whoever is in charge, with the blessing of you know who. Do you seriously think that in such country as Russia, with a topic sensitive as missile development, there wouldn't be a chain of command, even an unofficial one, with its links fearing for at least their job? Of course, some of the truth always leaks out (it's the nature of secret keeping involving lots of people, this is why nutters' ideas about large conspiracies are laughably impossible), so we got some details about ionizing radiation levels in Severodvinsk... and we got the information it has been swiftly removed.

[lajoswinkler]

1 hour ago, Dragon01 said:

The "isotopic power source" statement clearly evokes an RTG. A reactor can hardly be described as a "battery". For an RTG, this description is much closer to truth. The people at Rosatom, I think, would know the difference between one and the other.

And you believe that official statement? LOL

Few days ago they claimed nothing happened, and later that nothing leaked out. It's an old Russian policy. Lie, lie, lie, deny, deny, deny. Even when faced with facts, denial.

Rosatom is a Russian state company working on very important stuff for the country and, as such, is a subject to strict supervision of what information is being released.

 

Quote

Assuming it used Plutonium. While I was using it to explain how RTG can use fissile materials (as it's well known to be usable in reactors), most Russian RTGs don't actually use plutonium. Sr-90 is typically used in Russian RTGs, and also happens to be a dangerous component of nuclear explosion fallout. 

Yes, that's the assumption I used as an argument that begs the question of volatile radioisotope released, radon-222. I was trying to justify a hypothesis I don't endorse. But even with that idea it just doesn't work, as I've previously described.

[DDE]

15 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

Whoever is in charge, with the blessing of you know who.

Yes, because He is omnipotent and takes turns sleeping with Dmitri.

16 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

Do you seriously think that in such country as Russia, with a topic sensitive as missile development, there wouldn't be a chain of command, even an unofficial one, with its links fearing for at least their job?

Each element of chain of command has autonomous will and certain standing orders regardless interaction with the outside world. It gets even greyer when we consider various feudal entities (the government of Severodvinsk) and state companies (Rosatom).

[sh1pman]

1 hour ago, lajoswinkler said:

And you believe that official statement? LOL

Few days ago they claimed nothing happened, and later that nothing leaked out. It's an old Russian policy. Lie, lie, lie, deny, deny, deny. Even when faced with facts, denial.

They why are you even still discussing it in this thread? Nothing is true, everything is fake, everyone involved lied about everything to cover for themselves, right? There’s no solid basis to draw conclusions about anything. Therefore, all of your speculations about the event are worthless and pointless.

Reports about ionizing radiation in Severodvinsk are most likely fake news as well, as is everything else here! Probably planted by some KGB agents to spread uncertainty and misdirection!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

And you believe that official statement? LOL

Yeah, considering that all we have is official statements, if you don't believe those, you might as well say nothing ever happened. Typical conspiracy theorist thinking, complete with "them". Unless someone on this forum is from Severodvinsk and owns a Geiger counter (now that would be one big contrivance), you can't count on any independent confirmation. "Whoever's in charge" is probably in very hot water right now, due to losing five highly qualified scientists and causing a radiation incident. Russia is no stranger to actual conspiracies, but this looks fairly straightforward. 

A few days ago they announced scientists were killed, if it wasn't for that, nobody would have noticed anything was off. Any "nothing has happened" statement afterwards should likely be interpreted as "it's not another Chernobyl". Which it isn't, but given the typical hysteria associated with nuclear anything, it was probably needed to say that. Besides, it probably took them a while to realize there was any contamination (and to fill out all relevant paperwork). The levels reported shouldn't be dangerous.

[kerbiloid]

Probably the meteo rad table is real. Happened too unexpectedly, so the results were published and mentioned.

Also, greenpeace tells something today, but that's green piece, they always bury the world...

Edited August 15, 2019 by kerbiloid

[lajoswinkler]

2 hours ago, sh1pman said:

They why are you even still discussing it in this thread? Nothing is true, everything is fake, everyone involved lied about everything to cover for themselves, right? There’s no solid basis to draw conclusions about anything. Therefore, all of your speculations about the event are worthless and pointless.

Reports about ionizing radiation in Severodvinsk are most likely fake news as well, as is everything else here! Probably planted by some KGB agents to spread uncertainty and misdirection!

Well, one of the consequences of such policy towards outsiders, especially the West, is the degradation of value of facts, with its pinnacle observable today.

However, why would anyone plant disinformation that is damaging to oneself? That makes no sense. They could've just kept their mouth shut.

18 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Yeah, considering that all we have is official statements, if you don't believe those, you might as well say nothing ever happened. Typical conspiracy theorist thinking, complete with "them". Unless someone on this forum is from Severodvinsk and owns a Geiger counter (now that would be one big contrivance), you can't count on any independent confirmation. "Whoever's in charge" is probably in very hot water right now, due to losing five highly qualified scientists and causing a radiation incident. Russia is no stranger to actual conspiracies, but this looks fairly straightforward. 

A few days ago they announced scientists were killed, if it wasn't for that, nobody would have noticed anything was off. Any "nothing has happened" statement afterwards should likely be interpreted as "it's not another Chernobyl". Which it isn't, but given the typical hysteria associated with nuclear anything, it was probably needed to say that. Besides, it probably took them a while to realize there was any contamination (and to fill out all relevant paperwork). The levels reported shouldn't be dangerous.

It's a country known for its perpetual lying and denying used as a weapon. It's a fact, not an opinion. Also, I've defined "them" - the military officials in charge. I don't make up "elites" or "lizards" and stupid stuff like that.

 

People would notice nonetheless because some 16x background ionizing radiation, even though harmless, is impossible to hide. With over 180,000 people, at least few are bound to have a Geiger counter.

I wonder what are the conditions at the site of the accident. Probably quite a mess.

[kerbiloid]

Just now, lajoswinkler said:

However, why would anyone plant disinformation that is damaging to oneself? That makes no sense. They could've just kept their mouth shut.

The first messages were about radiation splash near the N town in local mass media, related to the local civil defense. And an explanation that an automatic sensor system kinda raised an alarm or so.
Then local authorities explained that the radiation is gone and it's okay.
So, the following information was an explanation of these already known to everybody, events.

[Cheif Operations Director]

8 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Yeah, considering that all we have is official statements, if you don't believe those, you might as well say nothing ever happened. Typical conspiracy theorist thinking, complete with "them". Unless someone on this forum is from Severodvinsk and owns a Geiger counter (now that would be one big contrivance), you can't count on any independent confirmation. "Whoever's in charge" is probably in very hot water right now, due to losing five highly qualified scientists and causing a radiation incident. Russia is no stranger to actual conspiracies, but this looks fairly straightforward. 

I mean It is not fair to say that not believing the Russian Government is conspiracy behavior. What may come out of that belief may be but not that in itself

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I mean It is not fair to say that not believing the Russian Government is conspiracy behavior. What may come out of that belief may be but not that in itself

It's conspiracy behavior to disregard anything and everything they say just because Russian government said it. They have no reason to make stuff up here, since the most damaging information is already out, courtesy of local civil defense and their automated sensors. If they really want to keep something secret, they just don't say a word about it. This is way more reliable, and that place is so isolated that they're the only information source about it, anyway.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, Dragon01 said:

It's conspiracy behavior to disregard anything and everything they say just because Russian government said it. They have no reason to make stuff up here, since the most damaging information is already out, courtesy of local civil defense and their automated sensors. If they really want to keep something secret, they just don't say a word about it. This is way more reliable, and that place is so isolated that they're the only information source about it, anyway.

Sure if the Russian government says that the sky is blue fine. But Russia has a long history of covering up nuclear disasters

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Sure if the Russian government says that the sky is blue fine.

So credulous... You would  probably believe that 2x2=4.

Edited August 16, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Cheif Operations Director]

17 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

So credulous... You would  probably believe that 2x2=4.

?

[YNM]

5 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

It's conspiracy behavior to disregard anything and everything they say just because Russian government said it.

When they're literally not saying anything useful it's dire to try and look for deeper meaning.

We literally just know "something nuclear goes off and some people died, but apparently only brief spike in radiation".

[Guest]

It is quite useful to people worried their town might become another Pripyat. For others, not so much.

[YNM]

3 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

It is quite useful to people worried their town might become another Pripyat.

Those who lived in them already knew* the risks. Much like Mayak, or Los Alamos in it's initial heyday. Many such place exists.

 

* well someone definitely took care of it.

[kerbiloid]

According to Roshydromet materials, the gamma splash of August, 8, could be caused by passage of a cloud of radioactive inert gases.

Weather conditions made the cloud quickly dissipate, they say.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https://www.interfax.ru/russia/673018

[DDE]

41 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

According to Roshydromet materials, the gamma splash of August, 8, could be caused by passage of a cloud of radioactive inert gases.

Weather conditions made the cloud quickly dissipate, they say.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https://www.interfax.ru/russia/673018

Should add from the same source that Norway has observed a mild bump in iodine-131 but cannot tie it definitively to the incident.

And yes, that does sound quite a bit more like a nuclear reactor.

...iodine is not an "inert gas" by any measure, and is a beta emitter.

Edited August 16, 2019 by DDE

[DDE]

Three of the casualties were reportedly delivered to a civilian hospital in Arkhangelsk, with two of them dying later. Although they were delivered naked, they apparently hadn't been sufficiently deconned - one of the fifty staff subsequently tested has been found with caesium-137 in their muscle tissue. The staff is furious with their superiors for not warning them to take precautions or being stuck with the military's wounded in the first place; the ward spent a few days in lockdown for decon and testing while the FSB were making the rounds with NDAs.

https://newsnord.ru/v-moskvu-uleteli-50-arhangelskih-medikov/?fbclid=IwAR25Ilaim3PLfm-GTTNl34kOslzlqzfaPxiLksmNuaGAmXv_rrIcGTgb3HI

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/08/16/exclusive-russian-doctors-say-they-werent-warned-patients-were-nuclear-accident-victims-a66896

Do take note that the second source is, contrary to the name, a Finnish newspaper that is known to be fairly tendentious; their retelling of the first source has clear spin. Baza is also, from what I hear, a crapshoot, although they do have video this time.

Also do note that Rosatom never told us what the burns were from, and whether they were from fire or betas.

[DDE]

Separately, I've skimmed some takes on le Twitters.

And if that's the launcher, what is the at-sea platform for?

Also interesting observations from the video I posted some time ago:

And here's another Burevestnik design option out of the left field:

Remember, for a few tumultuous years the Soviets did significant work on dirty bombs. The old storage area next to Saint-Petersburg has, in fact, not been cleaned up.

...actually I'm off to look for that book because the Twiteratti has ignored the next section, which is "Beta-battery-powered ramjet".

Please @ me rather than quote this.

Edited August 17, 2019 by DDE

[kerbiloid]

Quote

Just learned that the US has a project to develop small mobile reactors

Spoiler