magnemoe Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 7 hours ago, RCgothic said: What's the worst thing someone could do with a loose fully charged battery? That's basically the problem with hot swappable battery packs. Termite would be more dangerous, but yes solid rocket fuel and high capacity batteries has many similarities. But you want to use gasoline or mix it with washing powder to create something more like napalm for an fire bomb. Now if you had an scifi battery with more chemical energy than gasoline it would be very hard to also not make it an very good high explosive. Same with superconducting rings or other ways to hold lots of power. Bad for an fast electrical car, very nice for an torpedo as the rest charge turns into blast effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacke Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 2 hours ago, mikegarrison said: What's the worst thing a person can do with a five gallon can of gasoline? The gasoline fire is a lot easier to put out than the Li battery fire. Also the gasoline in approved containers stored and handled properly tends to be very very safe. The same cannot be said for battery packs. Fire Fighting Departments have had to get whole new tools to extinguish battery packs going on thermal runaway (be very careful on approach, smash in window on smoking or burning vehicle, put in wand that dumps in brine to cool and discharge the battery pack). Also the wear and tear of regular service on the battery pack is the major depreciation element on EVs and perhaps even Hybrids. Could see the expense of replacing the battery pack on a Hybrid be painful but manageable. But for EVs this is going to completely upset the traditional used-car market, as by the time someone sells, the battery pack is going to be through a lot of its useful service life, maybe even damn close to clapped out. Battery pack relatively rapid wear and tear will also likely foul establishing battery pack swaps as an evenhanded service, if the very large technical and safety issues are managed. What company providing battery pack swaps will want to give away a new battery pack for one of uncertain age and performance? What car owner will want their newer battery pack swapped out for one--again--of uncertain age and performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 The chemicals are different, so the response to them is different, but the overall fact remains that if something has enough energy to make a heavy vehicle move quickly for a long distance, then it has enough energy to be dangerous. (For that matter, the moving vehicle itself has enough energy to be dangerous!) This concern about battery safety strikes me more as fearmongering than rational. Yes, high-energy batteries are dangerous. All high-energy things are dangerous. But they aren't uniquely dangerous. They have some particular hazards that are different from the particular hazards of typical motor vehicle fuels, but those fuels also have particular hazards that are different from the hazards of batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Jacke said: Battery pack relatively rapid wear and tear will also likely foul establishing battery pack swaps as an evenhanded service, if the very large technical and safety issues are managed. What company providing battery pack swaps will want to give away a new battery pack for one of uncertain age and performance? What car owner will want their newer battery pack swapped out for one--again--of uncertain age and performance? Battery-as-a-service. You don't own the (swappable) battery, you lease/rent it. Depreciation is built into the battery owner's business model; besides, LFP battery cells are much more durable and much less prone to thermal runaway issues. Refueling a rentable ICE generator or fuel cell module (for recharging the permanent battery) would be no different than changing a propane-type cylinder or filling a jerry-can. Battery-swap systems are already operating in China. China's Nio Lets EV Drivers Swap Battery Quick and Hit the Road (caranddriver.com). Edited May 5 by StrandedonEarth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 A big factor to keep in mind is that the Tesla platforms, be they cars, trucks, semis, or robots, batteries aside, have 99% of the hard work done to be enormously successful. Updating the power aspects of the design as better battery tech comes along is peanuts compared to all the rest. While the current millions of Tesla cars on the road would not allow simple and convenient swapping, they could be upgraded to a new fixed battery tech in a less than trivial operation as a middle path for existing vehicles. I'm more concerned about the electrical infrastructure. Not the charging stations, that is easily solvable, but the grid itself. Just the raw cost of required grid transformers to support EVs as the majority is daunting. Much less installing them and upgrading capacity in general. I think every charging station cluster could have it's own pebble bed reactor to address this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 12 minutes ago, darthgently said: I'm more concerned about the electrical infrastructure. Not the charging stations, that is easily solvable, but the grid itself. Just the raw cost of required grid transformers to support EVs as the majority is daunting. Much less installing them and upgrading capacity in general. I think every charging station cluster could have it's own pebble bed reactor to address this The current electrical grid really, really needs to be modernized (at least, it does in the US), but that is a huge task considering the scale of the already installed infrastructure. My thoughts on what to do about this definitely trend into the forbidden realm of politics, and it's not Tesla-specific, so I guess I'll leave it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, darthgently said: I'm more concerned about the electrical infrastructure. Not the charging stations, that is easily solvable, but the grid itself. Just the raw cost of required grid transformers to support EVs as the majority is daunting. Much less installing them and upgrading capacity in general. I think every charging station cluster could have it's own pebble bed reactor to address this Well, probably not a cure-all, but localized storage (buffer batteries) and PV-covered parking lots (and/or wind where suitable) can go a long way towards slowing down the need for grid upgrades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AckSed Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 There are incremental grid upgrades that can be done to increase capacity: Temperature sensors for lines, so operators have a better idea how much the grid is being affected and where is being under-utilised; Re-conductoring powerlines with composite-core, trapezoidal annealed aluminium lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 24 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said: Well, probably not a cure-all, but localized storage (buffer batteries) and PV-covered parking lots (and/or wind where suitable) can go a long way towards slowing down the need for grid upgrades Along with the predicted power requirements for compute, moving nearly the entire transportation sector energy source to the grid is a *huge* problem. Like a multi-trillion dollar problem. If cannot be shrugged off, but not saying that is what you are doing Edited May 5 by darthgently Not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, darthgently said: Along with the predicted power requirements for compute Yeah, it's getting to the point where data/AI centers will need to secure their own power supply. Maybe that'll drive investment in a new generation of nuclear power plants! Yeah, I know, wishful thinking, too many hurdles. But that's part of why Microsoft is invested in fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 When the attempt to turn the cars into suicidal fireships by replacing petrol with gas (the real gas, not gas-oline) appeared to be not enough effective, they tried to do that by replacing the petrol with lithium. Petrol at least doesn't self-ignite on contacting with water, which occupies 75% of the planet, 75% of the human body, and sometimes even falls down from sky, and is often used to extinguish the fire. Maybe, the fission batteries would be more safe? P.S. Minimizing the car traffic is the only silver bullet. Removing the hundred-kilometer long suburban daily travels, using omnibuses, and so on. Then you don't need billions of wheeled bombs driven by amateur drivers. And the car energy capacity would be by orders of magnitude lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 5 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said: Yeah, it's getting to the point where data/AI centers will need to secure their own power supply. Maybe that'll drive investment in a new generation of nuclear power plants! There's also the looking threat of a cooling water shortage, and adding more nuclear power onto that is bad news. Basically, we're looking at a crisis of the entire concept of an energy-efficient society, which has driven the expectation that energy consumption in developed countries should plateau, has plateaued... and investment into more capacity is unnecessary, if not outright counterproductive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Nuclear (and other thermal plants) don't strictly need water for ultimate heat sink. I've seen several proposals for arid areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terwin Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 16 hours ago, mikegarrison said: What's the worst thing a person can do with a five gallon can of gasoline? In spite of movies, shooting a can of gas will not cause an explosion. Having a battery-pack land on a sharp rock or bit of metal will likely cause a chemical fire that will destroy the entire battery facility. Just plugging in a damaged or faulty battery pack could do the same. Also, Batteries and tires are the two most wear-sensitive parts on a BEV, and who wants to get an 'old' pack with only 2/3 the range of their brand new pack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakledHostage Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Current generation batteries (such as Li-Po batteries) have problems, it is true. But that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. New battery technologies are being developed because there's money in doing so. Solid state batteries are an example. Flow batteries are another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Does anyone who is complaining about car batteries here refuse to use a laptop computer? Or a cell phone? Or anything else with batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terwin Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 2 hours ago, mikegarrison said: Does anyone who is complaining about car batteries here refuse to use a laptop computer? Or a cell phone? Or anything else with batteries? I would very much refuse to put a used battery of unknown providence into any of my devices. (even with less risky batteries like 12v car batteries, I stick to new or refurbished by the manufacturer) I have no objections to the batteries themselves, only to swapping in a potentially adulterated battery to save a few minutes of charging time. From google: A battery typically makes up around 40% of a new EV's price. How that battery is treated is key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakledHostage Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 3 hours ago, mikegarrison said: Does anyone who is complaining about car batteries here refuse to use a laptop computer? Or a cell phone? Or anything else with batteries? [The internet]: EV's have the potential to significantly reduce our reliance on fossil fuels for transportation. [Oil industry advocates]: "I'm melting!!!" (a la the Wicked Witch of the West, having been doused with water) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, PakledHostage said: [The internet]: EV's have the potential to significantly reduce our reliance on fossil fuels for transportation. [Oil industry advocates]: "I'm melting!!!" (a la the Wicked Witch of the West, having been doused with water) Actually, the oil industry is one of the bigger advocates. They make a lot of money on petroleum that isn't fuel. All those disposable plastics for one. The world is a complicated place Edited May 6 by darthgently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 5 hours ago, PakledHostage said: [Oil industry advocates]: The oil industry has been extremely loud about preparing jump ship due to the oncoming transition - and investing in the green. "And where did you thirst for energy bring you? Back to me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 11 hours ago, PakledHostage said: Current generation batteries (such as Li-Po batteries) have problems Utilization of Polonium from the depleted batteries is really a problem, but it's worth it. Spoiler Fission battery (Po-Be-U ?). Fusion battery (Li ?) But anyway: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-retrofuture-is-back-betavoltaic-nuclear-battery-could-be-used-in-evs-86649.html https://www.nature.com/articles/srep05249 https://hitecher.com/news/the-world-of-fallout-is-closer-the-nuclear-battery-is-here Soon: Tesla Corvega Edited May 6 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, kerbiloid said: Utilization of Polonium from the depleted batteries is really a problem, but it's worth it. Hide contents Fission battery (Po-Be-U ?). Fusion battery (Li ?) But anyway: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-retrofuture-is-back-betavoltaic-nuclear-battery-could-be-used-in-evs-86649.html https://www.nature.com/articles/srep05249 https://hitecher.com/news/the-world-of-fallout-is-closer-the-nuclear-battery-is-here Soon: Tesla Corvega Broke: powering cars with cans of nuclear waste Woke: cylinder-driven UF6 pulse fission Did Rosatom actually know something when they included this thing into their pavilion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, DDE said: powering cars with cans of nuclear waste Wastesla Turbonuke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakledHostage Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 8 hours ago, DDE said: The oil industry has been extremely loud about preparing jump ship due to the oncoming transition - and investing in the green. "And where did you thirst for energy bring you? Back to me" While that's true at the corporate level, with companies like Royal Dutch Shell rebranding themselves as "Energy Companies" as they diversify into renewables, it hasn't reached the grass roots level. That guy in the pickup truck coal rolling the Tesla behind him at the red light isn't bright enough to have the corporate foresight of the industry's leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 40 minutes ago, PakledHostage said: While that's true at the corporate level, with companies like Royal Dutch Shell rebranding themselves as "Energy Companies" as they diversify into renewables, it hasn't reached the grass roots level. That guy in the pickup truck coal rolling the Tesla behind him at the red light isn't bright enough to have the corporate foresight of the industry's leadership. I could argue that a stereotypical Cummins truck rolling coal on a stereotypical Tesla owner may be a case of one pompous *ss mistreating another pompous *ss. But that's about as far as stereotypes can get ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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