[1.12.x] Bureaucracy - Monthly Budgets, Reimagined (1.7.2 - 30/11/2024 (Under New Management))

[vardicd]

@severedsolo How difficult would it be to make the Bureaucracy tab open-able in flight, or at least something to see how much potential science we have waiting around to be processed back home? Just found myself in a situation on Mun, landed near the intersection of 3 biomes, trying to get enough science in one go for a few science node unlocks, and I'd been transmitting some science home, and collecting non transmittable science, and I'd had a few near disasters with my rover and was worried about the safety of my Kerbal and was trying to figure out if i needed to actually go to the 3rd biome, and realized I could add up the samples I'd collected for return, but had to leave the in-flight scene and go back to KSC to see where my total unprocessed science was sitting because I had transmitted some. It's not that big of a deal, if it'd be difficult, or you don't want to do it, I just thought I'd ask, as it'd be a nice [small?] Quality of life improvement. 

Also, if there is already a way to see how much science you've transmitted in flight without going back to the KSC to see it, maybe let me know, as I don't seem to be aware of it?

[severedsolo]

@vardicd not difficult at all, just need to tell the toolbar icon to show up in flight (literally one word change) - I'll add it.

[vardicd]

Just now, severedsolo said:

@vardicd not difficult at all, just need to tell the toolbar icon to show up in flight (literally one word change) - I'll add it.

Thank you.

[Laminator]

Seems to be a great mod!

Is there any chance for a backport to 1.7.3?

I have been preparing a modset for my upcoming playthrough for the last 2 weeks and need to stick to 1.7.3 because I can´t stand the stocksize Kerbol system anymore, so I need Kopernicus and Rescale which both are only availible for 1.7.3.

A backport would be great indeed

greetings

Laminator

p.s.: no matter what, thanks for your great commitment and contributions to ksp modding!

[severedsolo]

Just now, Laminator said:

Seems to be a great mod!

Is there any chance for a backport to 1.7.3?

I have been preparing a modset for my upcoming playthrough for the last 2 weeks and need to stick to 1.7.3 because I can´t stand the stocksize Kerbol system anymore, so I need Kopernicus and Rescale which both are only availible for 1.7.3.

A backport would be great indeed

greetings

Laminator

p.s.: no matter what, thanks for your great commitment and contributions to ksp modding!

Sorry, my build pipeline is not set up to manage older versions of KSP.

The good news is your Kopernicus problem will be solved tomorrow (or so I've been told)

[severedsolo]

5 hours ago, Tivec said:

5 hours ago, severedsolo said:

 

As a work around for me, I'll just do research only on budget ticks for now.

Good news is that we think we've found a solution.

Quick question, if i start doing the "slow release" method we were talking about earlier (ie giving partial progress on facilities and research every day) isn't that going to make the problem worse for now? Because you won't have a specific time to do the research?

Tagging @Beetlecat because I know he uses Kerbalism, but anyone feel free to chime in.

Edited January 26, 2020 by severedsolo

[Tivec]

14 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Good news is that we think we've found a solution.

Quick question, if i start doing the "slow release" method we were talking about earlier (ie giving partial progress on facilities and research every day) isn't that going to make the problem worse for now? Because you won't have a specific time to do the research?

Tagging @Beetlecat because I know he uses Kerbalism, but anyone feel free to chime in.

I think that will make it harder, yes. At least until the trickle science from Kerbalism speaks to Bureacracy.

[severedsolo]

Just now, Tivec said:

I think that will make it harder, yes. At least until the trickle science from Kerbalism speaks to Bureacracy.

Cool, thought so. I will sit on this change until that's resolved then.

So the plan with Kerbalism, is basically if Bureaucracy is installed, Kerbalism won't trickle science. Instead it will pass a list of what it would have trickled to Bureaucracy, and allows Bureaucracy to handle it instead.

[Tivec]

1 minute ago, severedsolo said:

Cool, thought so. I will sit on this change until that's resolved then.

So the plan with Kerbalism, is basically if Bureaucracy is installed, Kerbalism won't trickle science. Instead it will pass a list of what it would have trickled to Bureaucracy, and allows Bureaucracy to handle it instead.

So this mod will do the "trickle" on a given time schedule (either budget ticks or daily, something that I'll let you figure out :P). I like that idea, that is a good compromise between the two mods. 

Another option would be a toggle to allow bureacracy to function but disable its science system, so you can allocate only between construction and budget (and vice versa maybe, allowing budget/science as a combo, but not construction). Just brainstorming

[severedsolo]

3 minutes ago, Tivec said:

So this mod will do the "trickle" on a given time schedule (either budget ticks or daily, something that I'll let you figure out :P). I like that idea, that is a good compromise between the two mods. 

Daily probably, I like that idea, It solves the "sitting around for 3 months before you can do anything" problem, and the problem of "VAB building upgrades in 1 hour if I happen to request it just before the budget"

 but to stop the player from gaming the system, the budget will be locked in for the month (so you can't up your allocations for science to give yourself a boost and then turn it down again,whatever is set at budget time sticks).

3 minutes ago, Tivec said:

Another option would be a toggle to allow bureacracy to function but disable its science system, so you can allocate only between construction and budget (and vice versa maybe, allowing budget/science as a combo, but not construction). Just brainstorming

Construction can already be turned off. Science is supposed to be toggleable too, but I obviously forgot to put it in, so that will be in the next update

Edited January 26, 2020 by severedsolo

[Tivec]

41 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Construction can already be turned off. Science is supposed to be toggleable too, but I obviously forgot to put it in, so that will be in the next update

I wasn’t aware, but being able to turn science off might be a good way to work around the issues until the mods speak well. I just read the thread on the issue tracker, and it might be a bit before they are compatible

 

Edit: @severedsolo to be fair, if you make it possible to disable the science part, you might as well add the x/day science and construction. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Tivec

[Laminator]

2 hours ago, severedsolo said:

Sorry, my build pipeline is not set up to manage older versions of KSP.

The good news is your Kopernicus problem will be solved tomorrow (or so I've been told)

Thanks for the very quick response!

The Kopernicus news sounds phantastic, that would be my preferred solution

Seems to be time to start over and prepare the next installment, now i have to look if testflight is up to snuff for 1.8.x, wrote about 15 engine configs for my 1.7.3 install ;)...

 

Thanks again for the continuing support of KSP, even when sometimes it has to be difficult to stay motivated!

[Beetlecat]

3 hours ago, severedsolo said:

Cool, thought so. I will sit on this change until that's resolved then.

So the plan with Kerbalism, is basically if Bureaucracy is installed, Kerbalism won't trickle science. Instead it will pass a list of what it would have trickled to Bureaucracy, and allows Bureaucracy to handle it instead.

Hey! Thanks for the ping!

My only "Hmm..." thought about this is that the Kerbalism "Trickle" isn't at the same scale as what Bureaucracy is modeling. The Kerbalism experiments are still (largely) completing within single flights, just taking a duration of time in-flight (at least as far as I am in the early-game) including the gathering of samples and crew reports to be collected (or transmitted) back to the KSC. It's just modeling the limits of internal data storage on a single craft, the transmitting rate of antennas, etc. Upon recovery of a craft, we're still presented with a "you earned X science in these experiments!" It still allows partial completions just like stock.

For some longer-term experiments, and science generators like Labs, Kerbalism *does* run on rails in the background, so that kind of incoming science trickle does exist.

Bureaucracy would still intercept this incoming science in a "R&D" context, with the rate and interval defined by the science allocation in the budgets, yeah? Kerbalism isn't providing it's own science release "gate."

I agree that the early game with Bureaucracy as-is is a bit tight for science, but there are a bunch of one-point testing contracts, and most lower tiers are only 5-point costs. But, after the system gets primed with experiments to process, improved rep growing the raw budget #s and enabling more science processing, and *especially* if you're thinking of enabling a steady release [of a set percentage...] of science, this would mitigate that early-game hardship.

 

[I know that the *preference* for this kind of thing can point at the recent trend of all kinds of supply/processing/manufacturing chain games, and I'm not ashamed one bit to admit I enjoy the hell out of them. But we're also in an era where people will drive virtual trucks for hours on end for *fun* -- so here we are... ]

Edited January 26, 2020 by Beetlecat

[severedsolo]

21 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

Bureaucracy would still intercept this incoming science in a "R&D" context, with the rate and interval defined by the science allocation in the budgets, yeah? Kerbalism isn't providing it's own science release "gate."

If I'm understanding you correctly then yes. So, the way it is now, is that Kerbalism is giving you science (probably more obvious when you are doing the longer experiments) and then Bureaucracy is snatching them away. This wouldn't be a problem if that science was never spendable to you, but it is. That's what this will fix. The actual amount of science you get is still not going to change. The way I envisage it, is "Kerbalism simulates experiments taking time to complete" then "Bureaucracy simulates the data taking time to analyse"

21 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

I agree that the early game with Bureaucracy as-is is a bit tight for science, but there are a bunch of one-point testing contracts, and most lower tiers are only 5-point costs. But, after the system gets primed with experiments to process, improved rep growing the raw budget #s and enabling more science processing, and *especially* if you're thinking of enabling a steady release [of a set percentage...] of science, this would mitigate that early-game hardship.

I think my main issue with the early game is that a typical startup goes (I'm using Unkerballed Start so maybe stock is a little easier):

• Launch a sounding rocket/collect science
• Timewarp to next budget, unlock a few nodes
• Maybe go suborbital? Repeat above stage

In short, you are at 90 days before you can even think about going to orbit. Throw JNSQ/rescales into that and you are looking at 150 days minimum.

The new system (which is basically done) - won't change the actual amount of science you get, and the allocation/planning ahead aspect is still there (more so actually, because it closes the loophole where you can "micromanage" your allocations up to budget day to min/max science gain).

Edited January 26, 2020 by severedsolo

[Beetlecat]

3 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

The new system (which is basically done) - won't change the actual amount of science you get, and the allocation/planning ahead aspect is still there (more so actually, because it closes the loophole where you can "micromanage" your allocations to min/max science gain).

Oh good!  I'm glad this aspect is also making it in.

While 90 days to get to space from a RP standpoint makes perfect sense to me, especially when there's plenty of smaller probes and sounding rockets work that needs to happen first, I can get where that seems a bit extreme.

 

I'm having a weird feeling we're stating the same objective, but with some varying assumptions, so I'm still not quite sure what is being *corrected* here:

2 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

If I'm understanding you correctly then yes. So, the way it is now, is that Kerbalism is giving you science (probably more obvious when you are doing the longer experiments) and then Bureaucracy is snatching them away. This wouldn't be a problem if that science was never spendable to you, but it is. That's what this will fix. The actual amount of science you get is still not going to change. The way I envisage it, is "Kerbalism simulates experiments taking time to complete" then "Bureaucracy simulates the data taking time to analyse"

Are Kerbalism experiments somehow sneaking through the Bureaucracy system at present? I wasn't noticing that at all. I'll double-check back in my game, but all the partial instances of experiments gathered via Kerbalism experiments and transmissions are enumerated at recovery, but still all stacked up appropriately in the Bureaucracy science backlog. I guess some more specific terminology like "earning" science and "awarding" science (awarded science being now available to spend...) could help  --- Yeah, Kerbalism just expands on the transmission time concept in stock.

I could be 1000% wrong, but I wasn't noticing any gradual upticks in my available science, and got the big allotment of them on budget day. I'll hop back into that game (or a new one, to better observe the smaller numbers) to confirm.

[severedsolo]

7 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

I'm having a weird feeling we're stating the same objective, but with some varying assumptions, so I'm still not quite sure what is being *corrected* here:

I think I thought you thought that this was going to somehow give extra science / make it too easy because the budget upticks quickly - tbh that first month is still going to be hell. I've got it set up so it assumes your KSP starting funds are the "budget" for the first month, at default you can process a grand total of 7 whole science!

9 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

re Kerbalism experiments somehow sneaking through the Bureaucracy system at present? I wasn't noticing that at all. I'll double-check back in my game, but all the partial instances of experiments gathered via Kerbalism experiments and transmissions are enumerated at recovery, but still all stacked up appropriately in the Bureaucracy science backlog.

From what I've got from conversations with the Kerbalism guys, and checking the code, Kerbalism is firing the event that Bureaucracy relies on once it's finished it's transmission. The issue is, in the meantime, the "gradual transmission" is slowly ticking up your science store.

You wouldn't notice it on little/short experiments, because the moment Kerbalism is done, Bureaucracy is taking over and taking the science back.

[severedsolo]

Bureaucracy 1.1 Released

• Reworked Science/Construction rewards. Rewards will now be allocated gradually throughout the month, rather than all at once (roughly once a day, but this can vary at high timewarp).
• Construction/Research Budgets are now locked in until the next month (ie Allocation Rate changes will only be taken into account at the end of the month)
• Existing saves will set the first months allocations up based on the state the save is loaded in.
• New saves will assume "Starting Funds" is this months budget.
• Added missing "HandleScience" toggle to settings
• Save Upgrade Pipeline updated to facilitate upgrades from 0.2+ > 1.1. If you happen to be using the VERY FIRST beta, your settings will be reset.
• Allocation Screen will now show effect of your allocations (for next month) in real time.
• Research UI "Maximum Output" label now reflects this months output rather than changing with allocation.
• Construction UI will now show total investment waiting to be used for this month.

NB: Wiki hasn't been updated yet. I'm going to bed, will do it tomorrow.

Edited January 26, 2020 by severedsolo

[Beetlecat]

11 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

From what I've got from conversations with the Kerbalism guys, and checking the code, Kerbalism is firing the event that Bureaucracy relies on once it's finished it's transmission. The issue is, in the meantime, the "gradual transmission" is slowly ticking up your science store.

Okay! -- That's the part I've not directly experienced, yet -- so yes. *THAT* leak would need to be patched/caught/Flex-taped, for sure.

12 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

I think I thought you thought that this was going to somehow give extra science / make it too easy because the budget upticks quickly - tbh that first month is still going to be hell. I've got it set up so it assumes your KSP starting funds are the "budget" for the first month, at default you can process a grand total of 7 whole science!

Heheh!  Well, if you still relent in allowing those one-off part testing contracts, etc. to offer 1 science each, plus some cash, it's a great way to tread water and slowly unlock the tiny nodes while waiting for bigger payouts. +KCT science node unlocking time (and even it's own science awarding processes) we can eventually get to a good flow of available points.

[vardicd]

7 hours ago, severedsolo said:

 "VAB building upgrades in 1 hour if I happen to request it just before the budget"

I may, or may not have cheated the system a time or 2 like this.... 

[vardicd]

5 hours ago, severedsolo said:

Bureaucracy 1.1 Released

Just an FYI, updating versions on a save in progress 'may' cause any active constructions in your build list to finish instantly. your results may vary.

[vardicd]

EDIT: ignore.

I looked right at the file i was looking for and didn't see it, then posted about it here and when i tabbed back over saw it, and feel like an idiot.

Edited January 27, 2020 by vardicd

[severedsolo]

3 minutes ago, vardicd said:

@severedsolo Was the default settings config in the mod removed intentionally in version 1.1, or just changed to something else? Is it not possible to set custom values for wages and building maintenance costs globally? My saved game still shows the BureaucracySettings config where I can adjust those values, but unless i'm blind, I don't see the global config anymore.

It should be there? I may have broken the option where it resaves itself on an upgrade maybe. I'm off to work in a second, but I'll have a look tonight.

In the meantime, try taking a backup of your settings file (outside your KSP directory), and changing the "version" back to 0.2 before you load your save. See if that forces a resave.

Edited January 27, 2020 by severedsolo

[vardicd]

7 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

It should be there? I may have broken the option where it resaves itself on an upgrade maybe. I'm off to work in a second, but I'll have a look tonight.

In the meantime, try taking a backup of your settings file (outside your KSP directory), and changing the "version" back to 0.2 before you load your save. See if that forces a resave.

I edited my original post, basically: I'm occasionally a blind fool. It was there. I looked right at it and somehow didn't see it. Sorry for the oopsie post.

Edited January 27, 2020 by vardicd

[severedsolo]

5 minutes ago, vardicd said:

I edited my original post, basically: I'm occasionally a blind fool. It was there. I looked right at it and somehow didn't see it. Sorry for the oopsie post.

Don't worry me like that - I thought it was plausible as I'd changed the line that prompts a resave to a variable (basically so I can input the settings version in one place, rather than having to type it all over) - but I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Just to check, your "upgrade completing instantly" thing - that was just a one time thing on upgrading the save? it worked ok after that?

[vardicd]

1 minute ago, severedsolo said:

Don't worry me like that - I thought it was plausible as I'd changed the line that prompts a resave to a variable (basically so I can input the settings version in one place, rather than having to type it all over) - but I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Just to check, your "upgrade completing instantly" thing - that was just a one time thing on upgrading the save? it worked ok after that?

Yeah so far I haven't noticed any other buildings instantly upgrading, seemed to have only been on the version change during a save in progress, with constructions already ordered, I got my Level 5 R+D and Level 4 Tracking station instantly, from having 13% and 0% finished on each of them respectively. didn't even cost me funds or put me in the negative, either.