[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[Dirt_Merchant]

any word on tv's aerospace's .cfg changes being compatible with the update?

[ferram4]

@Silenvio: Are you making sure to copy the GameData folder in the FAR zip into your KSP root directory? You must merge it with the GameData folder already there in order for FAR to work properly; trying to place the plugins into the Plugins folder in the KSP root directory will not work. You are running KSP 0.20.2, correct? Are you running any other mods?

@camlost: All wings make less lift near Mach 1. For an airfoil (measuring from the leading edge) the CoL stays at the quarter chord until Mach 0.8; it then shifts forward to 0.1 chord at Mach 0.95 and then shifts back to 0.4 chord at Mach 1, where it stays for all M > 1 flight.

@MR4Y: I gather it has a large TWR; reducing the TWR will help you out. If you're gonna use fins, put them on the central stack and don't use 2-way symmetry; it's far more stable in pitch than in yaw here, which is kind of weird, I don't know if there's a specific reason you're doing that but I don't see how much it would help. You might also want to switch over to unmoving fins rather than control fins. You might be better off getting rid of the parallel staging, making the central stack longer and using a bicoupler with dual engines at the bottom; this rocket is a little too wide for its height.

With your current launch profile, what is your altitude and how fast are you going when you first start your gravity turn?

@Dirt_Merchant: No reason it shouldn't be incompatible.

[Dirt_Merchant]

well, the way he handled the rescaled squad parts is good, but you do have redundant ferram modules in the configs if you dont remove them from the first PART {lots of stuff}

[camlost]

any word on tv's aerospace's .cfg changes being compatible with the update?

I'm using the modmanager version of TV and everything's fine so far.

Need to delete the engine configs from Ferramaeroresearch.cfg

Edited June 14, 2013 by camlost

[Huelander]

Edit: didn't saw the last page.

Ferram or anyone that may know about it, is delta wings the most stable configuration for a spaceplane? I tend to have way less headaches using wings this way than anything else I found on wikipedia. Especially at around mach2 and mach 3.5 that most of my other designs have problems.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Huelander

[Weatherman159]

Is there a way to save the position of the FAR window in the VAB/SPH? Having to move it manually on every game restart is kinda annoying...

Edit: This is really weird. The Flight systems window (in the flight scene) stays where I moved it upon game restarts, but all the others (airspeed setting in the flight scene, the configuration window while building) just go back to their default positions. I don't get it.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Weatherman159

[Chestburster]

Looks like the update fixed the Zero bug.

But could someone explain to me why this craft is getting into an uncontrollable stall/spin at mach 1.1+?

More pics

[ganjou234]

hey does anyone have tips on building stuff with this mod on? I get stalls and stuff

[ferram4]

@Huelander: Delta wings are among the best supersonic wing designs possible, though they may not be ideal for all fuselage designs. It really depends on the vehicle.

@Weatherman159: That's related to the way that the window locations are saved; for some reason, if the window is opened for a short period, moved, and then closed the new position doesn't get saved. I don't know why it happens, but it does. I'll have to look into it more.

@Chestburster: Try moving the intakes back a bit; the extra drag on the inlets at supersonic speeds might make it unstable.

[Chestburster]

Moving the intakes back a bit helped. Its now stable up to Mach 2.4 (cant get much higher or my engines are gonna bail out xD ). Turning is still deadly at those speeds, but i think thats working as intended.

[Autochton]

hey does anyone have tips on building stuff with this mod on? I get stalls and stuff

You need to apply aerodynamics to your work, basically. The CAS window will provide you with ways to check your work in the SPH, before rolling out. Use the first tab to set your control surfaces, the second one to check your plane's lift and drag at various angles of attack and speeds. The third and fourth get more crunchy and allow you to get some useful stability numbers and ideas of your pålane's behavior at various regimes - I myself am not 100% sure what the fourth one precisely does.

TL;DR: Check the second tab of the FAR CAS window, set the mach number to the one where you're getting stalls, run a 'sweep AOA' and look at those curves. They should (along with the help window) give you some idea what's going wrong (too much drag, too little lift, etc.)

[Van Disaster]

The way FAR treats body flaring now the cockpit, the intake section behind it and the ultra-wide section at the back will add more drag than they did previously. A lot more. You'll need more fuel I'm afraid.

This might explain why my Mk4 designs won't even leave the runway now. How much of the actual shape does it look at? if, say, the connector front piece for that fuselage set was less flat surface with sharp angles and more curves would it really matter?

Spaceplane wings: I've found normal looking swept wings seem to work best, although in the past deltas have also worked. Having a large span is helpful in the transition area on the way up.

[Volt]

@ferram4I know all I ever post is bug reports, but here's another bug report for you! Day two of operation surveyor, day two of seats and kerbals being funky. When any kerbals are onboard a seat inside the cargo bay of my Atlas, my elevators behave as ailerons (when I press the pitch up/down keys), my ailerons behave as elevators (when I press the roll keys) and my rudder does nothing at all. The inputs are still being registered correctly in the bottom left, including yaw. Removing the kerbals from the seats restores proper control. I've repeated this test after going to the space centre and back, and switching ships, and the same thing happens as long as a seated kerbal is present.

Thanks for your awesome work, though! It's almost impossible to fly this flared body cargo plane now

[betaking]

hello Ferram4,

Have you ever considered doing something along the lines of having deadly re-entry or G-forces?

I apologize in advance if you've answered this before, but I see these things as closely related.

[s20dan]

@ferram4I know all I ever post is bug reports, but here's another bug report for you! Day two of operation surveyor, day two of seats and kerbals being funky. When any kerbals are onboard a seat inside the cargo bay of my Atlas, my elevators behave as ailerons (when I press the pitch up/down keys), my ailerons behave as elevators (when I press the roll keys) and my rudder does nothing at all. The inputs are still being registered correctly in the bottom left, including yaw. Removing the kerbals from the seats restores proper control. I've repeated this test after going to the space centre and back, and switching ships, and the same thing happens as long as a seated kerbal is present.

Thanks for your awesome work, though! It's almost impossible to fly this flared body cargo plane now

Try clicking on 'Control from here' on the main pod after you place the Kerbals in the seat.

When you place a kerbal in the seat, it will automatically begin to control the ship from the position. If the seats are at funny angles it will cause the problem you decribed.

[MR4Y]

@MR4Y: I gather it has a large TWR; reducing the TWR will help you out. If you're gonna use fins, put them on the central stack and don't use 2-way symmetry; it's far more stable in pitch than in yaw here, which is kind of weird, I don't know if there's a specific reason you're doing that but I don't see how much it would help. You might also want to switch over to unmoving fins rather than control fins. You might be better off getting rid of the parallel staging, making the central stack longer and using a bicoupler with dual engines at the bottom; this rocket is a little too wide for its height.

Only one reason I'm doing that: Asparagus staging.

Here are the vessel stats with the rocket the way I built:

Making it taller and getting irg of the asparagus staging:

Now lets go to launch profiles. since i won't be able to do a consistent launch and gravity turn every time. I'll run both with Mechjeb. Ascent profile is set to a real gravity turn, starting to turn at 200m, then reaching 45 degrees at 10 km.

Since the second stage is the same no matter what I put on the bottom, let's compare the remaining fuel. Here is using the second design, ditching the asparagus staging and using a third stage the same size as the second one, but with two engines:

And here's with the original design, with asparagus staging:

Edited June 14, 2013 by MR4Y

[Silenvo]

Ferram4 Said: @Silenvio: Are you making sure to copy the GameData folder in the FAR zip into your KSP root directory? You must merge it with the GameData

folder already there in order for FAR to work properly; trying to place the plugins into the Plugins folder in the KSP root directory will not work. You are running KSP

0.20.2, correct? Are you running any other mods?

Yes, I am copying the GameData folder from the FAR zip into my KSP directory. "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData",

I am merging it with the existing GameData Folder. I only tried it in the plugins folder when it didn't work on the GameData folder.

KSP Version: 0.20.2.186 (So yes, I am running 0.20.2)

I am not running any mods whatsoever except for yours, which I am trying to get to work.

Of note though, other GUI mods seem to fail to work as well when I try to use them, after failures I basically delete the folder

and pop in a fresh unmodded version of the game to mod up. I have never had this much trouble modding a game before.

[Volt]

Try clicking on 'Control from here' on the main pod after you place the Kerbals in the seat.

When you place a kerbal in the seat, it will automatically begin to control the ship from the position. If the seats are at funny angles it will cause the problem you decribed.

Just tested this; thanks for the advice but it didn't seem to help.

[ferram4]

@Van Disaster: All it does is check the fineness ratio (length / max diameter) and taper ratio (diameter at one end / diameter at other). A taper ratio of 1 corresponds to a straight cylinder; a lower value indicates tapering and increases drag. A lower fineness ratio then adds a multiplier to that drag increase; a fineness ratio of infinity sends the drag increase to zero.

So the best thing to do is to not change the diameter all that suddenly.

@betaking: I've looked into modelling aerodynamic heating but I've never liked the models I've been able to come up with.

@Volt: I'll look into it; perhaps the method I'm using to account for the craft "orientation" isn't working properly.

@MR4Y: Just because your rocket has a ton of dV doesn't mean that it's the best design possible; besides that, your new rocket has less fuel than the other one, so it's almost guaranteed to have less dV. FAR doesn't really seem to like asparagus staging too much anyway, since it encourages wide, short rockets rather than tall, skinny rockets.

With the serial staging design you have now, try switching out an FL-T800 in the second stage for an FL-T400, and then add an FL-T400 to the first stage; that should increase your dV a bit. Another option is to but the bicoupler at the top of the first stage, have a pair of 2 FL-T800 stacks as the first stage; if the TWR is too low (say, TWR < 1.1) you can add an extra FL-T400 to each stack and then add SRBs to get it started.

When I was asking about launch profiles I was asking what you do when you do a manual ascent, not what MechJeb does. MechJeb's ascent doesn't tell me anything about the problems you have during a launch (especially since most of your complaints seem to be in the realm of control, which MechJeb won't have any problem with).

@Silenvo: Double-check to make sure that the FAR folders are where they should be (make sure ModuleManager.dll is in the GameData root), and then run the game, go in the SPH, launch a plane, quit and post the output_log (should be in KSP_Data in the KSP root). With that hopefully I'll be able to find the error you're having.

[Camacha]

You need to apply aerodynamics to your work, basically. The CAS window will provide you with ways to check your work in the SPH, before rolling out. Use the first tab to set your control surfaces, the second one to check your plane's lift and drag at various angles of attack and speeds. The third and fourth get more crunchy and allow you to get some useful stability numbers and ideas of your pålane's behavior at various regimes - I myself am not 100% sure what the fourth one precisely does.

TL;DR: Check the second tab of the FAR CAS window, set the mach number to the one where you're getting stalls, run a 'sweep AOA' and look at those curves. They should (along with the help window) give you some idea what's going wrong (too much drag, too little lift, etc.)

I would love some guide how this works, as well as some more details on the in-game functions. I sort of messed about until now, but I am quite sure I am missing quite a bit of functionality.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Camacha

[taniwha]

@Van Disaster: All it does is check the fineness ratio (length / max diameter) and taper ratio (diameter at one end / diameter at other). A taper ratio of 1 corresponds to a straight cylinder; a lower value indicates tapering and increases drag. A lower fineness ratio then adds a multiplier to that drag increase; a fineness ratio of infinity sends the drag increase to zero.

So the best thing to do is to not change the diameter all that suddenly.

Thus, build your planes and rockets like a canoe rather than a Model-T Ford

[Silenvo]

Ferram4 Said: @Silenvo: Double-check to make sure that the FAR folders are where they should be (make sure ModuleManager.dll is in the GameData root),

and then run the game, go in the SPH, launch a plane, quit and post the output_log (should be in KSP_Data in the KSP root). With that hopefully I'll be able to

find the error you're having.

I reinstalled the entirety of KSP from steam, so this is a fresh install - and I'm only installing the absolute latest version of your mod from Spaceport.

I am merging all folders in the zip with those in the KSP game folder. GameData with GameData, Parts with Parts, Ships with Ships.

All the pieces are present that you mentioned now. (where previously they weren't, to be detailed below.)

Apparently, the version of your mod I had picked up was an older variant (v0.9.41), Comparing it with v0.9.5.1 I noticed that it did not have ModuleManager.dll, or

a cfg file in the selection, as the new download has. After testing, I finally have control of the control surfaces, but the vehicles seem to lack a lot of their Lift,

they don't take off from the runway until they have completely cleared the edge of it practically.

Also, the GUI is still missing, no button to bring it up that I know of, and I do not see any obvious FAR icons on the screen, whether in construction

or in launch/flight.

I cannot post attachments yet, so I cannot post the log directly, However, I did peruse the log and noticed some things like this..

Failed to load assembly C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.dll:

System.UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.dll" is denied.

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, Boolean anonymous, FileOptions options) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at AssemblyLoader.LoadExternalAssembly (System.String file) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Failed to load assembly C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\FerramAerospaceResearch\Plugins\FerramAerospaceResearch.dll:

System.UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\FerramAerospaceResearch\Plugins\FerramAerospaceResearch.dll" is denied.

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, Boolean anonymous, FileOptions options) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at AssemblyLoader.LoadExternalAssembly (System.String file) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Failed to load assembly C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\FerramAerospaceResearch\Plugins\ferramGraph.dll:

System.UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\FerramAerospaceResearch\Plugins\ferramGraph.dll" is denied.

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, Boolean anonymous, FileOptions options) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor (System.String path, FileMode mode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at AssemblyLoader.LoadExternalAssembly (System.String file) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

I hope this information is helpful?

[ferram4]

I think the problem is that KSP doesn't have the proper permissions to load the plugin. If I'm correct, this isn't an issue with FAR; this will be an issue with all plugins. I'd try going over to the Support forum and see if they can help you there, since this is out of my control completely.

I'd suspect that this is an issue with running KSP in Program Files; you could try running KSP as an admin and see if it works then, though I would make sure to check Support to see if anyone else has posted having a similar error, and if no one has, post there, but make sure to provide all the information they request in the help threads.

[MR4Y]

When I was asking about launch profiles I was asking what you do when you do a manual ascent, not what MechJeb does. MechJeb's ascent doesn't tell me anything about the problems you have during a launch (especially since most of your complaints seem to be in the realm of control, which MechJeb won't have any problem with).

Here. I cut the video a little so all launches end when I reach an Ap of ~100 km:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6OGakrshF8

[Silenvo]

Ok, I'll go check out over there then... Thank you for the help, I appreciate it.

Update: Hey! thanks to what you said, Ferram4, I was able to identify that my problem since it wasn't the mod,

was in fact my Antivirus (Pesky at times, it likes to sandbox everything.) I use comodo Antivirus and it was conflicting

because it kept forcing things to fail from loading. (I also ran in administrative mode, so that might have also helped.)

But ultimately, my problem has been found and fixed, and Now I can play with the mod! Thank you for helping me.

I hope to have lots of fun playing your mod! (Since I'm a terrible pilot without a joystick to make it easier.)

*Flies off to play his game*

Edited June 15, 2013 by Silenvo
Update of my situation.