[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[blowfish]

FAR doesn't understand part clipping, so anything placed inside another part will be treated as if it is outside. If it has unused nodes, you will also get lots of blunt face drag. If you want to shield something put it in a cargo bay and FAR will deal with it properly.

[bdito]

lol I hear ya. I find it's only in certain situations I wanna clip, mostly when I attach science parts to the outside of a vessel. Gotta make my vessels look sleek. I gotta say Wanderfound makes some pretty amazing planes.

[Wanderfound]

GEEZUZ That tail plane O_O'

Is that even necessary?

Short fuselage, rearwards weight bias: the vertical stabiliser doesn't have a lot of leverage. Works well, though...

[bdito]

Wanderfound, what mod gives you the readouts by the navball?

[DaMichel]

It's Kerbal Flight Data

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80842-Plugin-0-90-Kerbal-Flight-Data-%28Release-15-21-12-2014%29

[Camacha]

Ferram, I am making a part that uses nodes in a sort of grid formation to attach to other parts. This means there are a lot of exposed nodes. I remember that FAR looked at those as points of high drag. Is that still true? Can I do anything about that and do I need to take anything else into account? Attachment node size perhaps?

Proper FAR compatibility is important

Edited January 8, 2015 by Camacha

[Threadsinger]

I'm 99.9% sure that it doesn't mess with the stock engines ISP and stuff. You also have to remember that you'll need less delta V to get out of the atmosphere with FAR than with vanilla. I don't know the exact number, but it's somewhere in the 3k zone, I think.

Thanks for the reply, was just curious. It's not delta-v (I can make an SSTO at this point... mostly), it was more that I read how wacky the stock jet engines were, I was wondering if my success was due to that or if FAR provided some nerfed engines (meaning I achieved something).

I was debating AJE, because it looks well-thought out and developed, but I'm not sure how rigid I want to confirm to reality.

- - - Updated - - -

Probably not, MechJeb simply doesn't know how to account for atmospheric drag in FAR.

With hilarious results. It works well though to set you on a rough entry vector toward your desired location.

Usually in a cloud of plasma debris.

[blowfish]

I'm 99.9% sure that it doesn't mess with the stock engines ISP and stuff. You also have to remember that you'll need less delta V to get out of the atmosphere with FAR than with vanilla. I don't know the exact number, but it's somewhere in the 3k zone, I think.

FAR doesn't modify the Isp, but does modify the thrust of stock jets:

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[@PROPELLANT[IntakeAir]]]:BEFORE[FerramAerospaceResearch]:NEEDS[!AJE]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
	{
		@maxThrust *= 0.5
	}
}
@PART[turboFanEngine]:FOR[FerramAerospaceResearch]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
	{
		@maxThrust = 110
		@velocityCurve
		{
			@key,0 = 0 0.8 0 -0.00098

			@key,1 = 140 0.7 0 0

			@key,2 = 400 0.8 0.00049 0.00049
			@key,3 = 900 1 0 0

			key = 1800 0 -0.00098 0
		}
	}
}
@PART[RAPIER]:FOR[FerramAerospaceResearch]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*],0
	{
		@maxThrust = 100
		@velocityCurve
		{
			@key,0 = 0 0.8 0 -0.00098

			@key,1 = 170 0.7 0 0

			@key,2 = 400 0.8 0.00049 0.00049
			@key,3 = 1100 1 0 0

			key = 1700 0 -0.00098 0
		}
	}
}
@PART[JetEngine]:FOR[FerramAerospaceResearch]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
	{
		@maxThrust = 150
		@velocityCurve
		{
			@key,0 = 0 1 0 -0.005
			@key,1 = 250 0.2 -0.001 -0.001
			@key,2 = 350 -0.005 0 0
		}
	}
}

[steve_v]

With hilarious results. It works well though to set you on a rough entry vector toward your desired location.

Usually in a cloud of plasma debris.

I usually just eyeball it TBH, most of the things I land in atmo can fly in atmo at least long enough to make up the difference

[karamazovnew]

I'm getting a very strange bug which triggers very weirdly. It might be connected to FAR in some way, as it seems to only affect parts with the "Mass/Strength" property (wings). my original post in the Blizzy's Toolbar thread

Any ideas?

[Kaa253]

General advices are:

-Don't make mini/short planes.

Oh No! Mini lifting bodies, Northrop HL-10 style, are the only way to reenter

Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree, don't ever clip parts!

[Mołot]

@Molot: No, then people complain that they got a warning (see the CompatibilityChecker sabotage from a few months ago). Or they try to get support anyway. Or they go around blaming FAR for win64 issues, and suddenly I've got all these erroneous support requests from all corners burying the ones that I can fix.

Win64 isn't worth it. It's such a mess that I think the only reason they keep releasing it every update (as it becomes more and more broken and unusable) is that Squad wants to avoid the PR disaster of having to announce it was a bad idea.

Molot: if you need 64-bits, use Linux. That is supported.

Sad thing is - I was using Ubuntu. Windows versions are much more stable for me - and I compared all 4 ( 2 OS x 2 word lengths). On Ubuntu, FAR was the only plugin I got working smooth and stable. Most of the others, not so. MechJeb had it's glitches I could live with, and others usually crashed my game. But I already "won" career mode with FAR + MechJeb only (well, it's science mode now, but I unlocked all tech, and visited most bodies). Now I want some more, and Linux versions are not up to the task.

I understand the decision not to support Win x64. Hopefully Squad will make it better. Or other mods will start working properly on Linux at some point.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Mołot

[NihilRex]

@Molot thats kinda funny, because Im running Ubuntu x64 heavily modded and not having any real problems I don't cause myself.

[Mołot]

@Molot thats kinda funny, because Im running Ubuntu x64 heavily modded and not having any real problems I don't cause myself.

Lucky you. If you'll ever be in Warsaw, Poland, please drop by, I pay with my homebrew ale For now, Windows it is, I don't have enough time to fight loosing battle alone when all I want is some fun.

[ferram4]

@karamazovnew: I think that providing the full log, with the stack trace would go a long way to finding the problem, if it is on my end.

Never truncate logs. Ever. It leaves out valuable information and you don't help anyone in the process.

[taniwha]

Molot: you might need the PNG patch for 64-bit linux.

[karamazovnew]

@karamazovnew: I think that providing the full log, with the stack trace would go a long way to finding the problem, if it is on my end.

Never truncate logs. Ever. It leaves out valuable information and you don't help anyone in the process.

Sorry This time I deleted all settings for the mods completely, created a new sandbox career, so that all settings are default. Problem still persists. Below is the output_log text (I hope that's the file you were asking for).

http://pastebin.com/fBpM8JXz

[tetryds]

Oh No! Mini lifting bodies, Northrop HL-10 style, are the only way to reenter

Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree, don't ever clip parts!

Well, they are just advices, you can get something to work without following them, but it will be harder (don't you dare clipping parts ).

Long way until I can have a tutorial ready, but after the first they will come earlier I promisse.

I started making a list of things worth an entire video and got really scared because I didn't finish such list yet...

And that is only the airplanes one.

But no worries it's not complicated, just a helllotastuff.

[smjjames]

As for the clipping parts, does that mean not ever offsetting things in the VAB/SPH? Whether into parts or not. I mean, offsetting something into or even rotating into a part is the very definition of clipping, is it not?

Or does that really only apply to airplanes?

[tetryds]

As for the clipping parts, does that mean not ever offsetting things in the VAB/SPH? Whether into parts or not. I mean, offsetting something into or even rotating into a part is the very definition of clipping, is it not?

Or does that really only apply to airplanes?

That means only parts inside of each other.

[Wanderfound]

As for the clipping parts, does that mean not ever offsetting things in the VAB/SPH? Whether into parts or not. I mean, offsetting something into or even rotating into a part is the very definition of clipping, is it not?

Or does that really only apply to airplanes?

A bit of cosmetic clipping here and there (e.g. the structural intakes at the wing roots in the pic I posted upthread) won't do any harm. But you won't get any non-cosmetic benefit: hidden things still generate drag if they're not in a cargo bay, and clipping wings into each other won't magically double their lift.

[smjjames]

That means only parts inside of each other.

Then how come they effectively enabled clipping with the offset function if clipping causes problems with the drag modelling? No idea if it's a problem in stock atmosphere though.

Also, I've noticed that sometimes with some parts (most notably the stock Mk2 pod, the apollo style one, and irregular parts like B9s S1 universial body pieces, although I have the stock part revamp), small parts will clip into the model, is this considered cosmetic or actual full on clipping?

It's probably less of a problem with rockets than it is for planes though.

[tetryds]

Then how come they effectively enabled clipping with the offset function if clipping causes problems with the drag modelling? No idea if it's a problem in stock atmosphere though.

Also, I've noticed that sometimes with some parts (most notably the stock Mk2 pod, the apollo style one, and irregular parts like B9s S1 universial body pieces, although I have the stock part revamp), small parts will clip into the model, is this considered cosmetic or actual full on clipping?

It's probably less of a problem with rockets than it is for planes though.

It's not a problem, I am making a bigger deal of it than what it really is.

You can clip reasonably and not have issues.

Current stock does not even bother, it just uses your weight and apply drag at the COM. A part upside down causes the exact same drag as one straight, etc.

So clipped parts will also create more drag on stock, but that doesn't really matter.

[bdito]

I'm a little confused now. In FAR, if drag is only reduced to nil when a component is shielded in a cargobay, would putting a nosecone on top of something like this reduce drag?

[smjjames]

It should, though I don't think you need THAT big a nosecone, and a fairing might be useful.