[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[eddiew]

Umm? Help? I built a jet with wings 1 shift-rotation up, and when it goes past about 150-200m/s the camera goes behind it, and whenever I touch the rotational controls the navball goes mad, showing insane changes in velocity, as well as the G-meter, in the mk3 cockpit the navball is upside down, and sometimes the craft just randomly explodes, I also tried giving Bill a 0-g ride in an mk3 cargo bay, but he was still dragged to the rear lke in 0.90.

Or is it 1.0.4?

Unless you're running stock + FAR only, I would lay odds you have a mod conflict. I've had all sorts of crazy things happen to the camera and atmospheric flights when two mods interact weirdly - and sometimes it's just not the ones you'd think would have anything to do with it, and they don't necessarily need to have any of their parts on your ship to make it happen.

[tetryds]

I'm wondering if flaps mounted under the wing so the wing will look like this:

_________________

`‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾\‾‾‾‾‾‾`

or this:

__________________

`‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾\

...would work. So, sort of like a split flap. When I try this, the control surface acting as the flap just stalls and doesn't seem to improve lift characteristics at all.

In addition, I'm still having trouble making the flaps help provide lift, as they always stall if I deflect them any reasonable amount - the stalling starts around 25 degrees...

How do I make the flaps not stall? Increasing camber and leading edge flaps do help, but it doesn't fix the issue.

That is because they are behaving just like they should.

Remember that lift is generated by a low pressure gradient on the top of the wing, not high pressure on the bottom (when subsonic).

So, adding flaps anywhere other than on the trailing edge is not going to help.

For leading edges, they decrease the angle of attack of the leading edges, so that the rest of the wing can be at a much higher AoA before stalling.

That, or they simply stall first and leave a gap to replenish the air on the top of the wing, also allowing the wing to sustain a much higher AoA.

[Max.10.07]

Unless you're running stock + FAR only, I would lay odds you have a mod conflict. I've had all sorts of crazy things happen to the camera and atmospheric flights when two mods interact weirdly - and sometimes it's just not the ones you'd think would have anything to do with it, and they don't necessarily need to have any of their parts on your ship to make it happen.

No mods, new save, just built an mk3 jet plane with flaps, the fat wings, rudder and elevator, and one passanger cap and one large cargo bay. The tail is the slanted 2.5m-mk3, 1.5m to 2.5m slanted, and finally the slanted nosecone, I have the short, non sharp cone at the start of the jet, a small landing gear, the one we had for years and 2 medium landing gear. There are 3 of the large new control surfaces per wing. Cockpit->passanger cap-> cargobay->tail.

I'll try to redownload the game, anyway my mods and saves for 1.0.2 are in another folder.

[gogozerg]

I was having major overheating problems on some rockets that did not appear on a pure stock install.

So, I reinstalled all my modules one by one. And very clearly, things go wrong when I install the latest FAR release.

Temperature numbers go crazy on some parts, even on the launchpad, and in no time they explode.

Craft file: http://grrroux.free.fr/divers/Untitled.craft

[Max.10.07]

No mods, new save, just built an mk3 jet plane with flaps, the fat wings, rudder and elevator, and one passanger cap and one large cargo bay. The tail is the slanted 2.5m-mk3, 1.5m to 2.5m slanted, and finally the slanted nosecone, I have the short, non sharp cone at the start of the jet, a small landing gear, the one we had for years and 2 medium landing gear. There are 3 of the large new control surfaces per wing. Cockpit->passanger cap-> cargobay->tail.

I'll try to redownload the game, anyway my mods and saves for 1.0.2 are in another folder.

Ok, re-installed, seems good now! But I did get a revert crash, probs nothing to worry about, I just don't get why some problems like slow loading come up over time.

Also the skyeye has something exploding inside the fairing at about 110m/s I think you should look into it.

[Max.10.07]

No mods, new save, just built an mk3 jet plane with flaps, the fat wings, rudder and elevator, and one passanger cap and one large cargo bay. The tail is the slanted 2.5m-mk3, 1.5m to 2.5m slanted, and finally the slanted nosecone, I have the short, non sharp cone at the start of the jet, a small landing gear, the one we had for years and 2 medium landing gear. There are 3 of the large new control surfaces per wing. Cockpit->passanger cap-> cargobay->tail.

I'll try to redownload the game, anyway my mods and saves for 1.0.2 are in another folder.

Ok, re-installed, seems good now! But I did get a revert crash, probs nothing to worry about, I just don't get why some problems like slow loading come up over time.

No probs so far.. hehe, far... get it?

[FourGreenFields]

The graph for the curvature just went nuts. Added a tail section as nose cone, then it looked like this: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/441699588259490547/C0FD5D83A7A1691AA2A5E024D8BC994DE131D38D/

Without the "tail" section all graphs looked normal (that blue graph was messed up too)

Output log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tr1n05zko0bmww2/output_log.txt?dl=0

Craft file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cubu5vqnaylw8e/P%2012.craft?dl=0

(I haven't tried replicating after restarting the game, but leaving SPH didn't help.)

[ferram4]

@gogozerg: Confirmed, and no idea what's happening there. I suspect something wacky with the new heat system and the areas that FAR calculates for heating.

@FourGreenFields: Ah, integer overflows, my old friend.

Fixed in the dev build by switching to longs, I'll look into putting a cap to ensure no overflows above that.

[Hessu]

@gogozerg: Confirmed, and no idea what's happening there. I suspect something wacky with the new heat system and the areas that FAR calculates for heating.

I got the smallest stackable battery exploding before circulation burn. Batteries are inside stock fairing, and remain ok while in there. Temp about 280C. When fairing jettisoned, all is ok for about 15 seconds.

Then the temperature just runs aways. My computer doesn't have big enough numbers for the heat.

There is some DMagic science stuff attached, also with MechJeb AR202 case. Sometimes the mechjeb case just flickers between 0C and infinity.

I found this link: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/126455-Warning-Modders-Parts-Really-Low-Mass-Plus-Large-Surface-Area-1-0-3-1-0-4

Mechjeb case is very low in mass. I fixed that manually. Didn't change anything. Things got less explody when I removed FAR.

Oh, and dunno if it relates to this problem, the temperatures of the craft just does not change after deleting FAR. Something else is weird here too. There is hot radiators and hot engine but no cooling or heating anymore.

Some other crafts perform normally with FAR in this same save, launched before 1.0.3. The problem case is launched in 1.0.4

[steve_v]

I'm finding batteries and fairings to be somewhat explody even in stock at the moment... And I suspect you have more than one problem there, so this could get interesting. See if you can reproduce it in just stock + FAR and post some logs. What other mods do you have - I can think of several that confuse the new heating system like this.

Also, check your Physics.cfg: rename it and an it will be generated anew.

[Wanderfound]

I'll try and see if I can get proper reproduction steps tomorrow (about to go to sleep right now), but I've also had some heating weirdness. Two similar incidents: items inside a spaceplane cargo bay exploding from overheating while flying at low speed (subsonic) shortly after takeoff.

The first one was a pair of the smallest batteries, the second was a Science Jr. In both cases, they were attached to the front bulkhead of the cargo bay (i.e. attached to the back of the part in front of the bay). Each time, shifting the exploding part away from the front wall of the cargo bay eliminated the problem.

[gogozerg]

@gogozerg: Confirmed, and no idea what's happening there. I suspect something wacky with the new heat system and the areas that FAR calculates for heating.

You may have already noticed, but I tried on a new install to help tracking the bug and make sure it doesn't come from some interaction with other modules. And it happens with FAR as the only module.

I hope they can fix all the heat weirdness in 1.0.5.

Edited June 27, 2015 by gogozerg

[Drew Kerman]

I hope they can fix all the heat weirdness in 1.0.5.

I highly doubt they will take the time to do any more releases prior to v1.1

[Tasmanian]

Please be informed, current DRE 7.1.0 with combination with FAR v0.15.3.1 slows things down to a crawl in 1.04. (At least on my AMD FX@4600MHz a 30 part ship is already slow)

Removing either of mods returns FPS to normal. Checked on 1.04 with no other mods installed.

Reproduction: install DRE&FAR, try default KerbalX ship in sandbox.

*update: Starwaster confirmed that DRE is not updated for KSP 1.04 yet, so this should not be the FAR issue.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Tasmanian

[Max.10.07]

I'll try and see if I can get proper reproduction steps tomorrow (about to go to sleep right now), but I've also had some heating weirdness. Two similar incidents: items inside a spaceplane cargo bay exploding from overheating while flying at low speed (subsonic) shortly after takeoff.

The first one was a pair of the smallest batteries, the second was a Science Jr. In both cases, they were attached to the front bulkhead of the cargo bay (i.e. attached to the back of the part in front of the bay). Each time, shifting the exploding part away from the front wall of the cargo bay eliminated the problem.

Thats what EXACTLY happens in the skyeye, just after takeoff, something explodes within the fairings for me, I might try stock.

So all I did was take FAR+stock and skyeye, and kaboom right after takeoff. Also one of my 1.25m batteries goes kaboom on my hypersonic-double-turbojet plane, or maybe more batteries explode.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Max.10.07

[Torih]

Hi, Just wanted to report that I've been having a lot of issues with ships exploding due to heat while in space. After a lot of testing to find the cause it seems that removing FAR has stopped it.

Its normally some random part which blows when I use warp (both physical and normal).

Mods: https://www.dropbox.com/s/64adbdlowbxwexx/Mods%2028-06.txt?dl=0

Output: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pltdg4nc31zsd9q/output_log.txt?dl=0

Not sure if you need anything else.

Thanks

[Cinocal]

Is there a limit to what the cargo bays will shield? Im trying to make a VTOL setup and I can mount a wheezly pointing down in two cargo bays but if I try to go more than 3 or two in each the drag goes way up and the green, yellow and blue lines in transonic drag tab get offset at like 45deg. It does this with the bays open or closed.

Any idea what would cause this?

http://i.imgur.com/gxEuffb.jpg

[ferram4]

Yes, I'm aware of heating issues. Something is very wrong with the new skin temperature system, particularly in calculating the exposed skin area. I can't figure out how Squad set it up, but for some reason that isn't changing at all or being set correctly; it's set in too many different places for me to follow exactly what's going on and if there's a way to go in with a scalpel to do the changes that I need. Hopefully I can have something to try and fix it, or just rip the entire new heating system out and replace it with something more like the old one.

@Cinocal: That would be a vehicle main axis error. Not sure how only two jet engines could cause that; can you upload the craft so I can take a look?

[steve_v]

Something is very wrong with the new skin temperature system...

Yes, yes there is, it's extremely frustrating and by no means isolated to interactions with FAR.

...or just rip the entire new heating system out and replace it with something more like the old one.

If it comes to that, I will owe you many beer.

With all the trouble the heat mechanic is causing post 1.0.3, I'm beginning to think this is the only logical answer.

I'd certainly have more faith in a hypothetical "Ferram Thermodynamics Research" than the code quality coming down official channels of late.

Edited June 29, 2015 by steve_v

[Cinocal]

Sent PM.

[DaMichel]

What could FAR possibly do to cause heating issue when parts are overheating while standing still on the runway?

Ferram4, if you need one more example, i can send you a craft file.

[brusura]

While building the station ( in the zip along with saves, craft, logs ) I get this NAN error, and soon after the launch the battery explode due to overheating ( stock, last dev build )

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pw4abd5t7fxlexa/ksp20150629.zip?dl=0

ArithmeticException: NAN
  at System.Math.Sign (Single value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARGUI.FAREditorGUI.EditorAeroCenter.UpdateAerodynamicCenter () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARGUI.FAREditorGUI.EditorAeroCenter.UpdateAeroData (FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics vehicleAero) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARGUI.FAREditorGUI.Simulation.EditorSimManager.UpdateAeroData (FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics vehicleAero, System.Collections.Generic.List`1 wingAerodynamicModel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARGUI.FAREditorGUI.EditorGUI.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

Edited June 29, 2015 by brusura

[marc40k]

I just came here to say: Thank you, @ferram4

For all your work done, I hope the best for you.

[Max.10.07]

I actually managed to do it ages ago. But i think it was rather due to bug using. No way this crazy thing could work IRL.

http://i.imgur.com/rj7Shc4.jpg

IIRC the wings did not stall during this, which they should. Also i think this has been fixed! Aww... well looks like it put a reaction wheel on this thing, too. So ...

No it doesn't. It only works when parts are stacked together with attach nodes. So building cargo bays from panel pieces does not work.

Not sure about the Kerbal in the cargobay. Perhaps cargobays only work on things that are attached to your vessel. Perhaps it works if you put him in a command chair.

You can do it if you increase the rear winglet deflection on the new firehound.

[Cinocal]

I tried your suggestion with the ignore for main axis in the cfg and it fixed my problem. Thanks!