KSP2 Podcast Discussion

[AlamoVampire]

@mcwaffles2003 just because you have not seen it happen does not mean it cannot or will not happen. Until the devs fully detail how multiplayer will work, i will not personally discount any possibility.

 

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[mcwaffles2003]

13 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

@mcwaffles2003 just because you have not seen it happen does not mean it cannot or will not happen. Until the devs fully detail how multiplayer will work, i will not personally discount any possibility.

 

225710182020

Perhaps you could provide an example of this occurring? Just seems silly to me to assume the worst case when in my experience game devs have always saw and avoided it

[AlamoVampire]

18 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Perhaps you could provide an example of this occurring? Just seems silly to me to assume the worst case when in my experience game devs have always saw and avoided it

About 7-8 months before my best friend and brother from another mother passed away we started playing farm simulator 2019. He had scads of mods and I did not. It took us 3 hours to get me the full mod set he had down to matching version numbers before we could play together. Not KSP but an example none the less. 
 

There is an old saying that applies here: hope for the best plan for the worst.

 

Thats why I bring it up. Shedding a faint light on it.

 

233510182020

[mcwaffles2003]

51 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

About 7-8 months before my best friend and brother from another mother passed away we started playing farm simulator 2019. He had scads of mods and I did not. It took us 3 hours to get me the full mod set he had down to matching version numbers before we could play together. Not KSP but an example none the less. 
 

There is an old saying that applies here: hope for the best plan for the worst.

 

Thats why I bring it up. Shedding a faint light on it.

 

233510182020

I'm sorry about your friend but that's not an example of a game being played with different people having different mod packs

[Guest]

If there’s a central mod repository it would be quite easy to implement a “sync mods” feature for multiplayer.

[AlamoVampire]

@mcwaffles2003 thank you for the sympathy. Yes it is a prime example. My fault for not being clear enough. Prior to taking those 3 hours we tried to play with me not having those mod packs. I had erred in thinking that implying that was sufficient. 
 

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[Guest]

Spoiler

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

Fwiw i enjoy multiplayer when it makes sense to have it. Examples: FFXIV:ARR, Elite Dangerous (as just 2 examples) but it is more about how are things like time warp or mod compatibilities or parts count being handled? Nate as far as I know has not addressed this. Nor as far as I know has anyone else on his team. Issues like performance around part counts or mods do need addressing.

I play modded Factorio and Minecraft with friend, we decide a list of mods beforehand and then play, if any of us has a personal save for single player we use the mod sync functionality for Factorio and just a second install for Minecraft.

The only real problem it's time warp but that's just a gameplay problem, the solutions are known and/or easy to reach, they just need to implement a bunch of them and then doing a ton of playtest to see which one is the best one.

Now, back to mining?

[Incarnation of Chaos]

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

@mcwaffles2003 thank you for the sympathy. Yes it is a prime example. My fault for not being clear enough. Prior to taking those 3 hours we tried to play with me not having those mod packs. I had erred in thinking that implying that was sufficient. 
 

005610192020

Yeah they won't let anyone with different mods loaded enter the lobby, at least on public servers.

The reason is pretty simple, that a mod is indistinguishable from a cheat/hack/trainer loaded. So if you don't enforce parity checking, then you open the gates to cheating. Plus the other issue is that if you don't have a mod, and one person does. Then how is your client supposed to interpret a space station they've constructed completely out of those parts? It can't, and the game crashes the moment you come within physics range.

That being said, they could have a Standalone Server Client. And on your own Server, you could disable parity checking for playing with people you trust. There's also a possibility that the Server itself could have mods applied to it, so that the mods are set and loaded at time of creating the server. This would allow anyone with bone-stock KSP2 to join a modded game, and use the respective mods without too much issue. If you could make disk images of these servers, it would also be exceptionally useful for archival/debugging/development purposes. You could have an entire catalog of curated KSP2 games, with different selections of mods, on different versions and each one could be loaded up at your leisure on the client.

But I'd be shocked if KSP2 actually had something that robust.

Me personally; I'm hoping for more of a Borderlands type experience. Local multiplayer/Co-op with the host serving as the server, limited to 4 or so people and options to lock the slots to invite/friends only so i don't have to deal with randos. And then a Standalone Server Client for KSP2 a couple months later for the people who want a more "MMORPG/Persistant world" type of experience. It would also allow anyone to play completely single player, by just locking the "Slots" entirely and not allowing anyone to join.

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

Yes it is a prime example. My fault for not being clear enough. Prior to taking those 3 hours we tried to play with me not having those mod packs. I had erred in thinking that implying that was sufficient. 
 

005610192020

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but isn't that a good thing, why would you want a server filled with people using different mod packs? Do you want servers to allow stock players and differently modded players to play together?

Now the fact you had to wait 3 hours is rough, but I don't think we will be DLing mods through KSP 2 and mods will be posted as they are now so how long it takes isn't up to the devs.

[AlamoVampire]

@mcwaffles2003 im not suggesting that, but, given that we just do not know how its going to be handled one has to consider all sides if how it potentially could be done. Im not saying my implication is how it will be done, inam saying we do not know for certain. As far as i know they have not been specific. Please correct me if im wrong.

 

045210192020

[mcwaffles2003]

 

12 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

 but it is more about how are things like time warp or mod compatibilities or parts count being handled?

10 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

 As far as mod compatibilities goes, I see no concern here, plenty of heavily modded games have multiplayer

9 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@mcwaffles2003 modded by itself is not my concern. Lets say you use parts pack X and I dont. Can i play with you? Maybe. Lets say I can. 

8 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I've never played a multiplayer where people with different mod packs occupy the same lobby

6 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

just because you have not seen it happen does not mean it cannot or will not happen.

5 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Perhaps you could provide an example of this occurring?

5 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

He had scads of mods and I did not. It took us 3 hours to get me the full mod set he had down to matching version numbers before we could play together. Not KSP but an example none the less. 

(That is an example of 2 people with different modpacks trying to play together but the game didn't allow that. Not "people with different mod packs occupy the same lobby")

4 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

that's not an example of a game being played with different people having different mod packs

4 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

 Yes it is a prime example. My fault for not being clear enough. Prior to taking those 3 hours we tried to play with me not having those mod packs. I had erred in thinking that implying that was sufficient. 

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

isn't that a good thing, why would you want a server filled with people using different mod packs?

Do you want servers to allow stock players and differently modded players to play together?

11 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

im not suggesting that, but, given that we just do not know how its going to be handled one has to consider all sides if how it potentially could be done.

 

So again, do you have an example of a game that allows people using different mod packs to play together? I have not, and I do not see why any dev would.

If not, I wouldn't worry about this just like I wouldn't be concerned the devs making the ground non collidable just to screw with us.

[AlamoVampire]

@mcwaffles2003 flight simulator 2020. Players can play together with or with out various addons available from its marketplace.

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(you could have all the addons and i could have none and still share same airspace in the same instance)

060410192020

Edited October 19, 2020 by AlamoVampire

[mcwaffles2003]

1 minute ago, AlamoVampire said:

@mcwaffles2003 flight simulator 2020. Players can play together with or with out various addons available from its marketplace.

055410192020

Those aren't mods and are built into the game from the developer... Everyone has those assets, though maybe not permission to use them. Just like any game with different skins or models for their characters.

So again, do you have an example of a game that allows people using different mod packs to play together?

[AlamoVampire]

@mcwaffles2003 fs2020 is such an example. It provides third parties a chance to provide mods to its users.
 

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Edited October 19, 2020 by AlamoVampire

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

@mcwaffles2003 fs2020 is such an example. It provides third parties a chance to provide mods to its users.
 

063310192020

065110192020

How?  Are there lobbies where players have downloaded those mods and been in the same lobby with each other while not have the same mods as one another? I am actually asking for just 1 example... please provide it or I'm done with this

So again, for the 4th time, do you have an example of a game that allows people using different mod packs to play together?

Edited October 19, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[Deddly]

There is a kind of Minecraft server that automatically forces mods to be installed/disabled to match the server requirements. I forget what it's called, though.

There are also a bunch of mods for Minecraft that only affect the client side - visual packs, cheats etc. These can be used (for better or worse) in multiplayer servers.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Deddly

[mcwaffles2003]

15 minutes ago, Deddly said:

There is a kind of Minecraft server that automatically forces mods to be installed/disabled to match the server requirements. I forget what it's called, though.

There are also a bunch of mods for Minecraft that only affect the client side - visual packs, cheats etc. These can be used (for better or worse) in multiplayer servers.

Fair enough, client side difference only makes sense (Like EVE, scatterer, engine lighting relit, etc..) but no assets, right?

Edited October 19, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[Deddly]

40 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

but no assets, right?

Yeah, I can't imagine that working unless it is controlled server side, which would require some kind of download, which could be handled on the fly (like the aforementioned Minecraft servers or a lesser-known but equally addictive game called Subspace Continuum - the original online massively multiplayer game, go get it, it's fabulous ) 

[mcwaffles2003]

6 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Yeah, I can't imagine that working unless it is controlled server side, which would require some kind of download, which could be handled on the fly (like the aforementioned Minecraft servers or a lesser-known but equally addictive game called Subspace Continuum - the original online massively multiplayer game, go get it, it's fabulous ) 

That's about what I figured. Games like CS 1.6 used to have modded servers where you would download the map/assets upon entering the server. I don't see a system like that working if mods are handled by 3rd parties like CKAN though, but I could be wrong. My assumption is factorio style where you have to match the mod pack on your own before you attempt to join the server or you will be rejected.

Edited October 19, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[Deddly]

It will be interesting to see what they decide on. Squad missed the chance to have an official CKAN-style functionality in KSP1. As for KSP2, we'll have to wait and see. Early indications are that Nate is an avid KSP player who greatly values mods, so he must see the potential. The only question is whether that potential is deemed important enough to dedicate resources to it. 

[mcwaffles2003]

3 minutes ago, Deddly said:

It will be interesting to see what they decide on. Squad missed the chance to have an official CKAN-style functionality in KSP1. As for KSP2, we'll have to wait and see. Early indications are that Nate is an avid KSP player who greatly values mods, so he must see the potential. The only question is whether that potential is deemed important enough to dedicate resources to it. 

I think there was discussion early on that said KSP 2 wouldn't handle it through things like the workshop as that may exclude some players or something and modding would continue as is. I could be wrong but bethesdas creation club is not a good poster boy for games handling their own mods

Edited October 19, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[shdwlrd]

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

So again, for the 4th time, do you have an example of a game that allows people using different mod packs to play together?

All you have to do is search YouTube for flight simulator x funny moments. You will see people claiming to be flying a certain plane, but either nothing will be in the frame or a different plane will be seen. The best example I can think of is someone loaded a mod for the shuttle Endeavor and all you can see is a little Cessna single prop.

[Guest]

Another few days passed and nobody has already talked about this huge reveal of the Podcast interview you should probably listen to if you're intrested in this game, the one I teased with:

On 10/16/2020 at 2:19 AM, Master39 said:

• Sandbox

Sandbox mode? No, that wouldn't be a big news, we're talking about something completely different yet highly speculated by us multiple times, the question that  lead to this reveal was made at 1:08:40 and was:

Quote

Host: "When you have really interesting problems to solve you also need interesting tools beyond just trial and error to be able to solve them, right? So KSP in an update got a delta V readout in the game, right?"
Nate: "Yep!"
Host: "You need that Delta V and TWR readouts to be able to build your rocket, right?"
Nate: "Yes"
Host: "So, because of those different sets of constraints will there be more information available to the player to make informed decisions on making this new kind of vehicles?"

Nate finished replying (very intresting reply, I strongly suggest to listen to it) Paul interveined with:

Quote

[...] one of the things that we are talking about doing is spinning up this sandbox universes, so players can experiment in this limited safe environment and fail a bunch of times and learn and then go back to their mission and say: "Oh, I learned this and this". So it's kinda like an inception of simulations  within our game simulation and allows people to go and explore and say: "Oh, this type of rocket, this configuration, this gets me what I need. Ok, now let me go build that for my interstellar trip"

 And then shortly after:

Quote

Again, it's limited, but it gives you enough data to fail in a non frustrating way.

 

So, simulations confirmed?  What are those limits?

IMOH this is a big step in the right direction, I get random design errors while exploring, but when you're setting up the infrastructure having a mean to check the symmetry of the thrust of a lander or the flying characteristics of a specific plane in an atmosphere without spending the resources to build the thing and the time to bring it where you need it it's more than welcomed and the limitations too, switching to a sandbox save and just spawining your test craft where you need it feels too spoilery and cheaty.

I also hope that those limitations are linked to the exploration of the body you're simulating.

 

PS The question before this one also reveals a lot of what will be the main design constraints of the big orbital interstellar ships.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Master39 said:

IMOH this is a big step in the right direction, I get random design errors while exploring, but when you're setting up the infrastructure having a mean to check the symmetry of the thrust of a lander or the flying characteristics of a specific plane in an atmosphere without spending the resources to build the thing and the time to bring it where you need it it's more than welcomed and the limitations too, switching to a sandbox save and just spawining your test craft where you need it feels too spoilery and cheaty.

I very much agree. I've been cheerfully doing this via cheats for a while now -- I make a save called SIMULATION_START, go hog-wild with cheating my prototypes wherever to test them, then when I'm happy I reload it and do the real thing (and lump it if there's a failure). I would very much like this to be a built-in feature in the game, with some handicaps in the simulation so that you can't actually discover anything in them that you don't already know.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Brikoleur said:

I've been cheerfully doing this via cheats for a while now

Same here, also I love the (non confirmed, all speculation from here) idea of having to explore to make the simulation more precise, that gives to overengineered pathfinder missions a gameplay value and makes science mission something more than an abstract science currency grind 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Master39