[1.12.x] Far Future Technologies - October 9

[Nertea]

On 10/30/2024 at 9:31 AM, Professor K said:

Some additional troubleshooting:

Even after the re-install, the harvester itself is showing all the resources in u/s. The scanners and the map screen info are in u/m3.

I set up an atmospheric processor from the base SpaceDust parts and it also listed the resources in u/s, although both the OX and Argon present did harvest as expected.

I found this line in the English localization, which looks like it should be the UI line used for the Resource PAW lines. Possibly the mod's code is not reading it and dropping back to an internal default?

    #LOC_SpaceDust_ModuleSpaceDustHarvester_Field_Scoop_Resource = <b><<1>></b>: <<2>> t/s

-K

I grabbed the mod off this official release page: https://github.com/post-kerbin-mining-corporation/SpaceDust/releases/tag/0.5.4 to confirm there wasn't a release issue. This is what I see (base game with no discoveries so only shows the two resources):

The units shown are only a symptom of the problem, not the problem - note also how different your numbers are - they look like they're from an old version. 

I'm going to need logs, modlists, etc, but I really suspect you have a older copy of some SpaceDust stuff in your GameData (maybe a second one from another mod that's bundling it badly?). Another thing - you need to tell me where in the game world you're getting those readings from so I can replicate the problem. 

edit- also another weird thing: you have in that screenshot exospheric distributions of Oxidizer and LF. I don't ship those in this or any of my mods, so something else is going on. 

[Nertea]

Oh, while the forum was down there was a release:

• Fixed Antimatter Costs Science setting only working in Career and not Science mode
• Fixed an extra F in the Antimatter Loading window and tweaked the decimals displayed
• Removed antimatter cost from settings config file in case it confuses people

[Professor K]

3 hours ago, Nertea said:

The units shown are only a symptom of the problem, not the problem - note also how different your numbers are - they look like they're from an old version. 

I'm going to need logs, modlists, etc, but I really suspect you have a older copy of some SpaceDust stuff in your GameData (maybe a second one from another mod that's bundling it badly?). Another thing - you need to tell me where in the game world you're getting those readings from so I can replicate the problem.

I think you hit the proverbial Kerbal on the head, or at least partially. A search for SpaceDust in mods other than yours turned up a SpaceDust folder in the Parts folder of "Cacteye 2 Refocused" that included a set of localization files from a 2022 version of SpaceDust. The author appears to have been attempting to integrate the functions of your mod's telescopes into that mod while removing yours from the parts list. No stray DLLs though.

Removing the CactEye mod from the sandbox setup seems to have fixed the unit display issue. Unfortunately, removing CactEye would break my ongoing game, so I need to figure out what exactly is happening and try to fix it. At first perusal I think simply removing the localizations from the CactEye spacedust folder will do the trick, there doesn't seem to be anything in them that's not in the latest "real" one.

These and the original screenshots are all from orbit around Kerbin with force Discover and Identify turned on in the SpaceDust config.

 

Quote

edit- also another weird thing: you have in that screenshot exospheric distributions of Oxidizer and LF. I don't ship those in this or any of my mods, so something else is going on.

That was me experimenting with adding ring shaped bands in order to learn how to add them for an additional planet pack I have.  I was adding them to Kerbin to make testing easy.

I do have an odd issue with that as well, although I was hoping that resolving my original issue would resolve it. It has not.  Without my additional bands, specifically the OX one, I see an atmospheric band of OX, as shown in the first image above. With my band in place, the Atmospheric band disappears and I see two identical exospheric bands of OX as shown below. Turning on display of either of the two duplicates shows the same exosphereic band.

 

// Defines Oxidizer definitions for Kerbin exosphere

// KERBIN
// So many fuel tanks have been vented and otherwise lost around Kerbin that it has low concentrations of gasified oxidizer to collect
// =============
SPACEDUST_RESOURCE:NEEDS[SpaceDust]
{
  resourceName = Oxidizer
  body = Kerbin
  
  RESOURCEBAND
  {
    name = kerbinOrbit
    title = #LOC_SpaceDust_Band_Orbit
      
    // Discoverability Data
    // --------------
    alwaysDiscovered = true
    alwaysIdentified = true
	
	bandType = Exosphere

    // Maximum and minimum abundances (variation is by game seed)
    // In t/m^3
    minAbundance = 0.0000000000276
    maxAbundance = 0.0000000000306

    // Scale abundances by air density
    useAirDensity = false

    // Distribution Data
    // --------------

    // Distribution model to use, can be Uniform or Spherical
    distributionType = Spherical

    // These parameters are specific to the Spherical model
    // -------
    // Altitudes are in km from sea level
    // Maximum altitude for a distribution
    altUpperBound = 650000
    // minimum altitude for a distribution
    altLowerBound = 80000
    // peak of a distribution
    altPeak = 300000
    // maximum variation of these altitudes (variation is by game seed)
    altVariability = 10
    // Falloff for altitude, can be Linear or None
    altFalloffType = Linear

    // lats in degrees
    // Maximum latitude for a distribution
    latUpperBound = 10
    // Minimum latitude for a distribution
    latLowerBound = -10
    // peak of a distribution
    latPeak = 0
    // maximum variation of these latitudes (variation is by game seed)
    latVariability = 1
    // Falloff for latitude, can be Linear or None
    latFalloffType = Linear
  }
}

-K

[Nertea]

Sorry every time I've remembered about this the forum has been down. So your issue is... solved? Sorry hard to tell. 

 

[Professor K]

21 hours ago, Nertea said:

Sorry every time I've remembered about this the forum has been down. So your issue is... solved? Sorry hard to tell. 

 

I know the feeling on the forums.

As to my issue... Well, the old labeling is gone, but the numbers themselves haven't changed. I'm still seeing concentrations that require game years of harvesting to gather usable quantities of basic resources like LiqHydrogen. I've "solved" it for myself by simply patching the concentrations in the config files with my own MM patches to increase the levels to where they work for me. If you're interested in researching it further, just let me know what data you need and I'll do my best to put it together.

-K

 

Oh, I am still having the issue with the ExoSphere OX band somehow overwriting the planetary OX band as well. I haven't found a solution to that.

Edited November 15 by Professor K
Added info

[Nertea]

23 hours ago, Professor K said:

Oh, I am still having the issue with the ExoSphere OX band somehow overwriting the planetary OX band as well. I haven't found a solution to that.

Can you attach the config files you're using?

23 hours ago, Professor K said:

As to my issue... Well, the old labeling is gone, but the numbers themselves haven't changed. I'm still seeing concentrations that require game years of harvesting to gather usable quantities of basic resources like LiqHydrogen. I've "solved" it for myself by simply patching the concentrations in the config files with my own MM patches to increase the levels to where they work for me. If you're interested in researching it further, just let me know what data you need and I'll do my best to put it together.

This is a case where we might have to check expectations. The way I've set it up is that liquid hydrogen is slow to collect because it's literally just free fuel that allows infinite travel. If I let you plop an extractor in Kerbin orbit, it's just a free fuel factory now. That has to be slow... Here's a poorly pasted table of the exospheric bands that are in the default spaceDust distributions, with a what if for how long it takes a single scoop in about the 'middle' of the distribution to collect a gram of product. 

Resource	Name	Time for 1g of product, d
Antimatter	kerbRing	2,012.3405978
Antimatter	kerbRingHigher	192.2191496
Antimatter	joolExo	17.4879609
Antimatter	laytheAreaRing	415.5530293
Antimatter	laytheRing	332.4708279
LqdHydrogen	kerbinExo	2,207.00
LqdHydrogen	SunExo	331.18
LqdHydrogen	joolExo	0.1126180

 

So in this case if you're scooping at kerbin, I expect it to take years to get anything in LH2 land. 

[stephensmat]

8 minutes ago, Nertea said:

So in this case if you're scooping at kerbin, I expect it to take years to get anything in LH2 land. 

I've been having trouble with my KSP save, so I started a new Career. FFT is one of the Mods I brought with me. I'm nowhere near Jool, or Antimatter engines yet.

That said, Jool feels like the right place for Antimatter and Liquid Hydrogen harvesting. You start with chemical rockets and all. If you can get production into Jool orbit, then you've officially 'mastered' that style of spaceflight, and get to upgrade so that moving around the system is no longer the hard part. Like going from Apollo, to The Martian, to The Expanse. 

[Professor K]

16 hours ago, Nertea said:

Can you attach the config files you're using?

This is the config file that appears to trigger the issue. Without it I get the stock Kerbin atmospheric OX band, with it I get two identical exospheric OX bands and no atmospheric band.

Please ignore the units, the screenshots were taken before fixing the labeling issue.                      

 

I can't seem to figure out how to attach a file in this forum, so here's the config file in a code block.

// Defines Oxidizer definitions for Kerbin exosphere

// KERBIN
// So many fuel tanks have been vented and otherwise lost around Kerbin that it has low concentrations of gasified oxidizer to collect
// =============
SPACEDUST_RESOURCE:NEEDS[SpaceDust]
{
  resourceName = Oxidizer
  body = Kerbin
  
  RESOURCEBAND
  {
    name = kerbinOrbit
    title = #LOC_SpaceDust_Band_Orbit
      
    // Discoverability Data
    // --------------
    alwaysDiscovered = true
    alwaysIdentified = true
	allowRemoteDiscovery = true
	allowRemoteIdentification = true
	
	bandType = Exosphere

    // Maximum and minimum abundances (variation is by game seed)
    // In t/m^3
    minAbundance = 0.0000000000276
    maxAbundance = 0.0000000000306

    // Scale abundances by air density
    useAirDensity = false

    // Distribution Data
    // --------------

    // Distribution model to use, can be Uniform or Spherical
    distributionType = Spherical

    // These parameters are specific to the Spherical model
    // -------
    // Altitudes are in km from sea level
    // Maximum altitude for a distribution
    altUpperBound = 650000
    // minimum altitude for a distribution
    altLowerBound = 80000
    // peak of a distribution
    altPeak = 300000
    // maximum variation of these altitudes (variation is by game seed)
    altVariability = 5
    // Falloff for altitude, can be Linear or None
    altFalloffType = Linear

    // lats in degrees
    // Maximum latitude for a distribution
    latUpperBound = 10
    // Minimum latitude for a distribution
    latLowerBound = -10
    // peak of a distribution
    latPeak = 0
    // maximum variation of these latitudes (variation is by game seed)
    latVariability = 1
    // Falloff for latitude, can be Linear or None
    latFalloffType = Linear
  }

}

-K

[Professor K]

16 hours ago, Nertea said:

This is a case where we might have to check expectations. The way I've set it up is that liquid hydrogen is slow to collect because it's literally just free fuel that allows infinite travel. If I let you plop an extractor in Kerbin orbit, it's just a free fuel factory now. That has to be slow...

So in this case if you're scooping at kerbin, I expect it to take years to get anything in LH2 land. 

That may well be the issue for me then. While I realize it's more realistic and understand why you set it up that way, my personal play style doesn't usually involve the time warping through very long stretchs to have things happen that I see many others use. It's an easy enough thing to patch for myself though now that that I understand how the system works and I thank you for taking the time to look into it for me and explain the system. While I've only started using Spacedust and FFT with this playthrough, I've been using your NFT mods for quite a while and they are some of my favorites.

-K

[Nertea]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:18 AM, Professor K said:

That may well be the issue for me then. While I realize it's more realistic and understand why you set it up that way, my personal play style doesn't usually involve the time warping through very long stretchs to have things happen that I see many others use. It's an easy enough thing to patch for myself though now that that I understand how the system works and I thank you for taking the time to look into it for me and explain the system. While I've only started using Spacedust and FFT with this playthrough, I've been using your NFT mods for quite a while and they are some of my favorites.

-K

That's not quite what I meant - I don't think players should timewarp for resources much if it all, so the existence of this band at a very low concentration is meant to do a couple things

1. Telegraph that it's something you can do in general "hey I can collect LH2 in orbit"!
2. Indicate via its low useability that there's probably better places to look for it.
3. Provide a close-to-kerbin proving ground where you can test the harvesting, even if it's not very effective.
4. Provide a nice 'treat' for the player if they were to go away and do missions for years, they come back and have some free fuel 

[KspNoobUsernameTaken]

1 hour ago, Nertea said:

• Telegraph that it's something you can do in general "hey I can collect LH2 in orbit"!
• Indicate via its low useability that there's probably better places to look for it.
• Provide a close-to-kerbin proving ground where you can test the harvesting, even if it's not very effective.
• Provide a nice 'treat' for the player if they were to go away and do missions for years, they come back and have some free fuel 

This is a very interesting thought process, makes sense. I will note that part two didn't really "click" for me until I read through the config files, I just assumed that harvesting is kind of a gimmick and not useful.

Also, I feel like there should be a more descriptive message for when there are collectable resources in the area, but the concentration is lower than the minHarvestValue of your collectors. That caused me a lot of grief before. (Not sure if you changed this in a newer version)

[Nertea]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:00 AM, Professor K said:

This is the config file that appears to trigger the issue. Without it I get the stock Kerbin atmospheric OX band, with it I get two identical exospheric OX bands and no atmospheric band.

Please ignore the units, the screenshots were taken before fixing the labeling issue.                      

 

I can't seem to figure out how to attach a file in this forum, so here's the config file in a code block.

// Defines Oxidizer definitions for Kerbin exosphere

// KERBIN
// So many fuel tanks have been vented and otherwise lost around Kerbin that it has low concentrations of gasified oxidizer to collect
// =============
SPACEDUST_RESOURCE:NEEDS[SpaceDust]
{
  resourceName = Oxidizer
  body = Kerbin
  
  RESOURCEBAND
  {
    name = kerbinOrbit
    title = #LOC_SpaceDust_Band_Orbit
      
    // Discoverability Data
    // --------------
    alwaysDiscovered = true
    alwaysIdentified = true
	allowRemoteDiscovery = true
	allowRemoteIdentification = true
	
	bandType = Exosphere

    // Maximum and minimum abundances (variation is by game seed)
    // In t/m^3
    minAbundance = 0.0000000000276
    maxAbundance = 0.0000000000306

    // Scale abundances by air density
    useAirDensity = false

    // Distribution Data
    // --------------

    // Distribution model to use, can be Uniform or Spherical
    distributionType = Spherical

    // These parameters are specific to the Spherical model
    // -------
    // Altitudes are in km from sea level
    // Maximum altitude for a distribution
    altUpperBound = 650000
    // minimum altitude for a distribution
    altLowerBound = 80000
    // peak of a distribution
    altPeak = 300000
    // maximum variation of these altitudes (variation is by game seed)
    altVariability = 5
    // Falloff for altitude, can be Linear or None
    altFalloffType = Linear

    // lats in degrees
    // Maximum latitude for a distribution
    latUpperBound = 10
    // Minimum latitude for a distribution
    latLowerBound = -10
    // peak of a distribution
    latPeak = 0
    // maximum variation of these latitudes (variation is by game seed)
    latVariability = 1
    // Falloff for latitude, can be Linear or None
    latFalloffType = Linear
  }

}

-K

It looks like there's a logic bug with specifying multiple SPACEDUST_RESOURCE entries with the same body and resource versus just adding more RESOURCEBAND entries. This can be fixed.

edit: this has been fixed and a new release of Space Dust is out with it. I will update the bundled FFT one eventually, I am fixing a couple things in FFT first. 

On 11/17/2024 at 4:15 PM, KspNoobUsernameTaken said:

This is a very interesting thought process, makes sense. I will note that part two didn't really "click" for me until I read through the config files, I just assumed that harvesting is kind of a gimmick and not useful.

Also, I feel like there should be a more descriptive message for when there are collectable resources in the area, but the concentration is lower than the minHarvestValue of your collectors. That caused me a lot of grief before. (Not sure if you changed this in a newer version)

Yeah newer versions have a more descriptive message (eh, there was one but it was bugged) and also fix the litany of logic bugs that resulted in those appearing at all (the intent was to only really have that cutoff if people wanted to enable it).

[Professor K]

23 hours ago, Nertea said:

It looks like there's a logic bug with specifying multiple SPACEDUST_RESOURCE entries with the same body and resource versus just adding more RESOURCEBAND entries. This can be fixed.

edit: this has been fixed and a new release of Space Dust is out with it. I will update the bundled FFT one eventually, I am fixing a couple things in FFT first.

Thanks Nertea! I installed the updated version and can confirm that it fixed the issue for me.

 

-K

[AstroOwl]

Hello everyone,
Hope it is a good place to ask a question about supplementary mods that should go well with Far Future Techs.

I installed FFT for my career because I wanted to have something to aspire to at the end of the tech tree, something to invest all that science and have an "endgame" when you understand that even with 0.5 sci a couple of good/full other planets missions get you through the old tech tree. This is my first more seriously modded playthrough, before it was only TACLS.

What I seem to understand, though, is that FFT alone won't fly so well. What else am I recommended to have apart from FFT? I want to still preserve that "here is stock, and here is the future" division, but it looks like I would need Near Future Launch Vehicles  and Heat Control  to properly use the FFT, right?

Do I need something else from the supporting side for the experience to be reasonable? In particular, do I need any additional ISRU mods if I want to set up new fuels production chains. I installed Rational Resources. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but it looks like not everything is covered (e.g. nothing produces Enriched Uranium). Not all fuels/propellants are supposed to be harvestable?

My current GameData.

Thank you! And thank you Nertea for your amazing work.

[The Dressian Exploder]

If you don't have Rational Resources Parts as well as the actual plugin, that might be a good place to look. SpaceDust should also allow for harvesting of resources in space. Heat Control is pretty much a necessity for FFT, as you've identified. That should pretty much have you covered.

[Aborted Yolk]

Does anyone know of a way to make NUK fuel? Or fission pulse units?  For the Hamilton nuclear pulse engine? I'm just wondering if I can build a base that can make fuel for it as I use a bus style hauler that runs on this engine and it sucks that the only place I can refuel it at is homeworld it would be nice if I could synthesize fuel for it and launch refuel missions into space around my other planetary bases 

[Eclipse 32]

my ship's heat loop is refusing to cool at all. i can't tell what's producing heat, i turned off the engine, and there's nothing else in the system that's active except for a bunch of stock large radiators. i have a ramscoop on the front, but it's off, since the loop is too hot. my ship is low on fuel, so i need to activate the scoop, but it's too hot to turn it on. is there a cheat to reset global system heat?

 

EDIT: it's only loop 0 that's borked, everything else is fine

Edited December 17 by Eclipse 32
did some testing

[IAlsoPlayKsp]

Is there any way to make Fission Pellets and Fission Fragments less ambiguous?  For instance, the Casaba antimatter engine, according to its right-click menu, burns "Fi P". The tank that holds this however, is labelled a "Nuclear Pellet" tank. It also doesn't help that another tank (which looks quite similar mind you) called the fissionable tank holds "Frag" which is burned by the Asimov engine. It also definitely doesn't help that B9PartSwitch labels Frag as "Fissionable Particles" and there is an entirely separate other tank for "Fi P" which I guess is pellets. Also the Vulcan smelter labels Fi P (pellets) as FiPellets and Frag/FissionableParticles as FiParticles. I'm not quite sure what my main point is, but I think one could make it a lot more clear / newbie-friendly. Not a big issue tho, and I won't complain if you don't fix it

On 11/28/2024 at 3:18 PM, Aborted Yolk said:

Does anyone know of a way to make NUK fuel? Or fission pulse units?  For the Hamilton nuclear pulse engine? I'm just wondering if I can build a base that can make fuel for it as I use a bus style hauler that runs on this engine and it sucks that the only place I can refuel it at is homeworld it would be nice if I could synthesize fuel for it and launch refuel missions into space around my other planetary bases 

There is not, to my knowledge, a way to make NUK. (Though I'm not quite sure why you would pick this engine; it has rather low efficiency, high cost to run, and as you said, no ISRU refueling capabilities. I'd recommend a less powerful/efficient engine that can be refueled, or just using a terrifyingly efficient engine like the X-6 Clarke if your up for it. These are just my two cents though, you do you! ) 

Edited December 19 by IAlsoPlayKsp

[IAlsoPlayKsp]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:43 PM, Eclipse 32 said:

my ship's heat loop is refusing to cool at all. i can't tell what's producing heat, i turned off the engine, and there's nothing else in the system that's active except for a bunch of stock large radiators. i have a ramscoop on the front, but it's off, since the loop is too hot. my ship is low on fuel, so i need to activate the scoop, but it's too hot to turn it on. is there a cheat to reset global system heat?

 

EDIT: it's only loop 0 that's borked, everything else is fine

Could I please see a picture, maybe a craft file or something, because loop 0 is perfectly fine for me. This issue is happening in flight, not just in the editor, so I can only think that there may be some thermal component you didn't notice. Thanks!

[Eclipse 32]

8 hours ago, IAlsoPlayKsp said:

Could I please see a picture, maybe a craft file or something, because loop 0 is perfectly fine for me. This issue is happening in flight, not just in the editor, so I can only think that there may be some thermal component you didn't notice. Thanks!

i message here from a different computer then i play on, and my dad owns the computer i play on, and i don't want to fight with transferring screenshots, or just finding them in dad's tangled mess of a files app.

[IAlsoPlayKsp]

1 hour ago, Eclipse 32 said:

i message here from a different computer then i play on, and my dad owns the computer i play on, and i don't want to fight with transferring screenshots, or just finding them in dad's tangled mess of a files app.

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this online without sounding a bit passive aggressive, but you have just gave us an issue with absolutely zero way for us to track it down, recreate it, or even see the problem... what was the point of asking the question? No one can solve it without info. Please provide adequate info next time (GameData, ksp.log, pictures even) or don't ask it all. Sorry if I sound rude but it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine

[Eclipse 32]

it's fine, i understand.

i don't even know what's going on, how to reproduce it, nothing.

[Professor K]

On 12/19/2024 at 1:55 PM, Eclipse 32 said:

it's fine, i understand.

i don't even know what's going on, how to reproduce it, nothing.

Well, it's going to be difficult, maybe even impossible, to diagnose the issue without details, but here's a trick that might get you past it for your current ship. You can change what loop both radiators and heat producers are part of while in flight, so change your engine's heat loop to a higher number, then change enough radiators to that same number and see if you can get it to work.

-K

[Eclipse 32]

yeah, prob will do that next time i play