The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x

[Popestar]

20 minutes ago, paul_c said:

Orbit Info???

Yep.  Nothing there that you can't already get, just more visually appealing.  I use that to gauge burns to the Mun and Minmus (how far out to set Ap).  Mods for visuals are fine per the rules

[paul_c]

You don't get the orbital period, time to Ap/Pe, inc, ecc, angle to prograde. It doesn't really affect the Kerbin orbit stuff but it would be useful once you start going to (and coming back from) the Mun. Its not up to me to make the judgement though. There is advice on previous pages of the thread on how to disable mods if needed.

[Popestar]

In my Normal run, I literally documented that I had MJ installed but was using it for visual information only.  And my document for that run gave inclination on every flight, and @JAFO approved my entry.  All screen shots from that run in the previous thread were viewed by multiple people who Moderate this, and nobody said anything about it.

With that said, I have no problem removing it because, as I said, all of what I'm using can be gotten elsewhere in the stock game.  And really, all I'm using it for is Ap, Pe, and time to Ap/Pe.

[FloppyRocket]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:18 PM, paul_c said:

I don't think there's enough science points available without landing on the Mun (for tier 5, which is10x 90 science) .

I completed Talc (twice) without landing on the Mun. One high-space flyby and one low-space flyby.  But I never transmit any data, I return all the science to Kerbin. I think Goo is the only one that doesn't count for 100% completion on one attempt, so I carry two Goo.  A third Goo yields very little, so not much is lost. No transmitting also means no need for relay satellites.

===================

From the rules:

Use of the KER and/or MechJeb mods, or other mods that provide more information than the stock game does, is not permitted.

Edited January 31, 2021 by FloppyRocket

[Popestar]

Again, my normal run was approved...and I literally stated I left MJ installed as the only reason I used it was for orbital information.  If it should not have been allowed, that should not be on me for following all rules and being honest about it being installed.  And the previous thread states only that KER was not allowed; there is no mention of MJ in the previous thread rules.

To be fully honest, I am entirely reliant upon the information being displayed in this way.  All elements can, from what I understand, be found elsewhere in the stock game.  And as I stated, I only use Ap, Pe, and time to each.  If the display invalidates my hard run, I will have to start over I guess.  But I'm doing the same thing now that I did on normal and that was allowed and approved.

[paul_c]

16 minutes ago, FloppyRocket said:

I completed Talc (twice) without landing on the Mun. One high-space flyby and one low-space flyby.  But I never transmit any data, I return all the science to Kerbin. I think Goo is the only one that doesn't count for 100% completion on one attempt, so I carry two Goo.  A third Goo yields very little, so not much is lost. No transmitting also means no need for relay satellites.

 

"Hard"/Topaz gives 60% of the science value figures on the wiki. Given that the tech tree is fixed, its possible to calculate approx what is required for each challenge - and I did a number of calculations along the way, for example "science yielded per biome" with/without transmitting, with/without science jr, with/without landing a Kerbal there. Part of the fun is discovering, or rediscovering where the different biomes are (it would be frustrating to hit the same one over and over, so you'd want to visit others). I wouldn't want to spoil the fun for others but I ended up with a list of biomes, then put a * by those which were on the far side; or needed a big plane change (my retriever was in approx equatorial, as were all my orbits due to the Mun being on 0deg and burning normal/antinormal mid-way to align as best I can). I know I left an amount of science on the table, which I'd need for Corundum/Diamond - I think for these you need to be more methodical.

8 minutes ago, Popestar said:

I only use Ap, Pe, and time to each. 

Time to Ap/Pe is not given in the stock install with the caveman settings but its pretty easy to guesstimate off the map; or by observing the vertical speed if you really need to be on the other screen.

[FloppyRocket]

2 hours ago, paul_c said:

"Hard"/Topaz gives 60% of the science value figures on the wiki.

Thanks, I did not yet look into what capabilities are lost in the harder challenges. 

[JAFO]

18 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

I made a separate topic thing for it, as to not flood this one. Is that correct, what is the usual way to do such thing? (don't want to get on a moderator's bad side) 

Either way works.. but a separate topic is a nice touch.

 

17 hours ago, Popestar said:

In my Normal run, I literally documented that I had MJ installed but was using it for visual information only.  And my document for that run gave inclination on every flight, and @JAFO approved my entry.  All screen shots from that run in the previous thread were viewed by multiple people who Moderate this, and nobody said anything about it.

And when I approved that entry, I did so under the rules as posted in the previous thread, since that was the active thread at the time when you began the challenge. After which, I reminded you that in this new thread, the original "No KER or MJ" rule was being reinstated.

On 1/13/2021 at 11:48 AM, JAFO said:

(If you decide to take on another level of the Caveman Challenge [and I hope you do!], please do note there is a slight change to the rules, compared to the previous challenge. MechJeb is also disallowed, now. In all previous challenges, it was not permitted, but somehow, in the last challenge, it was not explicitly banned. In this version of the challenge, I have gone back to the traditional rules, in that both KER and MJ are not allowed.)

Edited February 1, 2021 by JAFO

[JAFO]

15 hours ago, Popestar said:

I'm doing the same thing now that I did on normal and that was allowed and approved.

It was allowed and approved only because you made that normal run under the 1.3 - 1.10 rules. Which, after that run was completed, were no longer in effect because this new thread had then commenced.

Edited February 1, 2021 by JAFO

[Popestar]

Well, uninstalled it shall be, as I do not wish to be accused of cheating.

Question:  why is it now disallowed?  Is it due to the potential for abuse?  Or does it have something to do with 1.11 (which it doesn't work with)?

[paul_c]

AIUI its not so much cheating/abuse (you're not cheating/abusing anyone, its a single-player game) but that the essence of the challenge itself, is to be able to do stuff which progresses your exploration/science WITHOUT the usual upgrades and facilities which one might normally take. Ie to find ways around the lack of info/utilities the stock upgrade would have provided you with.

An obvious example is rendezvous/docking - without detailed orbital info (such as inclination, LAN, targeting) you need to match the orbit by eye given only the map screen, then eg estimate your change of distance over time rather than being provided with a target speed. I am sure there are other examples for other aspects too.

[Popestar]

17 minutes ago, paul_c said:

An obvious example is rendezvous/docking - without detailed orbital info (such as inclination, LAN, targeting) you need to match the orbit by eye given only the map screen, then eg estimate your change of distance over time rather than being provided with a target speed. I am sure there are other examples for other aspects too.

I totally understand your line of thought here.  I'm just curious now why it was allowed prior to 1.11, but it's not allowed now.

[paul_c]

On 1/31/2021 at 2:36 PM, paul_c said:

Debating whether to try Corundum or Diamond......the first pays 30% science (half of Hard) and the other 20% science? Any other big differences?

I have started my "Diamond" challenge. NCD is just too much for me, I will leave that one alone!

So far its very grindy, I've had 6 attempts to get a decent starting contract and/or not kill either or both Val and Jeb in silly accidents. Since funds start at 0, you need a reasonable challenge which gives enough of an advance to actually do anything; then you have 1 'contract slot' to do things you can actually do. So far I have done a bit of KSC science but there's a lot more to come, I don't have wheels yet so no vehicle to move around. I could fly something suborbital, carefully, though. 

And rather than rushing into spaceflight, I am building up copious notes on deltaV, TWR and performance to build up a good understanding of flight characteristics etc. This way, I can see which contracts are easy, which are risky and which are out of reach with the current tech. Initially I am going for 100% recovery (so just fuel costs) and the contract styles were initially paying just hundreds but now they are into the 4-figures, and sometimes +1 science too. It is absolutely crucial to keep the Kerbals alive, the cost to replace is totally unobtainable. And certain contracts which would need an expendable vehicle (stage) would not be cost effective.

I imagine I'll be a few days or a week just doing small (very gradually increasing) suborbital atmospheric flights until I have enough science and money to even attempt a suborbital >70km flight, never mind orbital.

[Popestar]

The one thing I learned when I tried NCD and then switched to Hard was that there is next to no penalty in NCD for declining a contract.  You start with so much negative reputation that declining those stupid "Take so-and-so here" or "Test this part on an escape trajectory" has no impact other than it opens up a slot for other contracts to be offered.  Decline everything that makes no sense, either financially or scientifically.

[paul_c]

Finally bit the bullet and with a 50km altitude test flight to double-check some parachute and re-entry config stuff, went for suborbital:

The 20% multiplier for Diamond is brutal, its going to be a long slog with no stone unturned to gather the science. I'm now here:

There's 3 paths I could follow: gen/adv rocketry; stability/aviation; basic science. I've actually done a cost-benefit analysis to see how much each path costs (in science), and what likely science it will earn me to progress. None of them are >1!!!!! (So, more contract stuff etc). Of course, I need to get them all eventually but I want to find the most efficient route through the quagmire.

I am aiming for near 100% reusability, to allow me to focus on science gathering rather than needing to do non-science-earning contracts too much. And of course, each contract I take on needs to be thoroughly evaluated for risk and feasibility because failing a contract or killing a Kerbal is game over!

[Blaarkies]

2 hours ago, paul_c said:

I imagine I'll be a few days or a week just doing small (very gradually increasing) suborbital atmospheric flights until I have enough science and money to even attempt a suborbital >70km flight, never mind orbital.

No way, you'll get orbital sooner than you think

Based on my steam time, i have played around 9 hours on this Diamond run. I have around 60k funds and unlocked up to Tier 3.4. Just be careful with launches. Dead kerbals are not an option, so always pack safety (heatshields, decouplers between the capsule and the booster which might flip it). Always have some life savings after funding large missions (if that multi stage rocket crashes, you need enough to atleast do some contract/science hops around KSC to get back on your feet)

[Majk]

2 hours ago, paul_c said:

I don't have wheels yet so no vehicle to move around

You have wheels!

Spoiler

REACTION wheels.

 

[paul_c]

100% reusable but with an "emergency" capsule decouple with its own chute, just in case. The flight plan is to go up vertically, then flip horizontal to maximise drag then deploy drogue then main chutes safely without tearing them off. Time will tell whether I can get orbital and retain the 100% reusability - I suspect not - but I will try to retain at least some of the fuel tank/engine. Or, do a thorough risk/cost analysis of it and further tests....

12 minutes ago, Blaarkies said:

No way, you'll get orbital sooner than you think

Based on my steam time, i have played around 9 hours on this Diamond run. I have around 60k funds and unlocked up to Tier 3.4. Just be careful with launches. Dead kerbals are not an option, so always pack safety (heatshields, decouplers between the capsule and the booster which might flip it). Always have some life savings after funding large missions (if that multi stage rocket crashes, you need enough to atleast do some contract/science hops around KSC to get back on your feet)

Its good to know I'm not alone - you sound like you're a little bit ahead of me. 

[Popestar]

So, I've decided to abandon going for Hard at this point.  I don't want to uninstall MJ right now, and I would have to restart Hard without MJ to be fair about things.  I will come back and retry Hard at some point, but not right now.  For now, I just want to play, so I'm starting a career on Moderate, with the custom setting of needing to purchase new parts when they are unlocked.

[paul_c]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

So, I've decided to abandon going for Hard at this point.  I don't want to uninstall MJ right now, and I would have to restart Hard without MJ to be fair about things.  I will come back and retry Hard at some point, but not right now.  For now, I just want to play, so I'm starting a career on Moderate, with the custom setting of needing to purchase new parts when they are unlocked.

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do it!!!!!!!!!! Do the hard challenge!!!!! Rise up to the challenge of sorting out the KSP install and doing it without the MJ info etc, you'll feel the accomplishment once its all done!!!! I get the feeling this challenge is a bit boring in the initial phase so you won't want to do it over and over with gradually increasing level, stick to the "Hard" and work through it!

[Popestar]

@paul_c

I have restarted on NCD and Hard multiple times to this point, and I'm getting bored with having to collect the same science over and over and over.  Had I not been blind and read that MJ wouldn't be allowed in this iteration, I would have uninstalled it at the start.  But now?  I am just bored with doing the same thing over and over and over and then having to start again and again and again.

I will come back to the challenge at some point when I feel I need to push myself again (that's why I did the Normal challenge to begin with - to learn stuff and push myself).  But at this point, I am tired and just want to play without feeling like I have to do x in y fashion, you know?

[paul_c]

The extra info makes little/no difference until you do stuff like to go the Mun, so I think you would be okay to just carry it on? Come back to it in a week? Its up to JAFO though......

[FloppyRocket]

23 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

Thanks, I did not yet look into what capabilities are lost in the harder challenges. 

Well, as I'm partway through Apatite now (Normal career mode), I am struck by how easy the Talc mode was, because it gave a 2x multiplier for science points (which I did not realize at the time, having not done enough research about the Difficulty settings in the first place).

So, yes, I'm planning to do some Mun landings.

 

[Popestar]

12 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

Well, as I'm partway through Apatite now (Normal career mode), I am struck by how easy the Talc mode was, because it gave a 2x multiplier for science points (which I did not realize at the time, having not done enough research about the Difficulty settings in the first place).

So, yes, I'm planning to do some Mun landings.

 

I completed Normal without landing at all.  In fact, I did 2 Mun fly-bys (collecting science for high/low orbit), 2 Minmus fly-bys (same as Mun), and a few Kerbin orbits (again, high/low,  and some contract stuff).

Edited February 2, 2021 by Popestar

[FloppyRocket]

3 hours ago, Popestar said:

I completed Normal without landing at all.  In fact, I did 2 Mun fly-bys (collecting science for high/low orbit), 2 Minmus fly-bys (same as Mun), and a few Merib orbits (again, high/low,  and some contract stuff).

Cool. I was not sure whether to try to aim for Minmus without having any maneuver nodes for trajectory planning.