The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x

[JAFO]

19 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

New update, and also done! 

Did the final Mun landings and ended with some extra 334 leftover.

Congratulations, @Blaarkies!

A very impressive run. And I loved your idea of building a reusable "fuel magazine" that you could just slot new tanks into as needed. Truly inspirational!

Your name has been carved into the cave wall for 'Diamond', and a new badge has been sent to your inbox.

Well done!

[SpaceShane11]

Hey I just finished this challenge as my first one ever so here are the pics.

[Jacke]

I've updated my KSP Science Checklist for KSP 1.11.  The only things added that comes under the Caveman  Challenge are EVA Science Kit Experiments, but that only comes in after unlocking a Tier 5 Tech node.  Topic link to the download in my signature below.

I extensively cover all the Science available on Kerbin and within the KSC.  I use it to keep a running tally of what I've extracted and to find what's still out there.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jacke

[Blaarkies]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

I've updated my KSP Science Checklist for KSP 1.11.  The only things added that comes under the Caveman  Challenge are EVA Science Kit Experiments, but that only comes in after unlocking a Tier 5 Tech node.  Topic link to the download in my signature below.

I extensively cover all the Science available on Kerbin and within the KSC.  I use it to keep a running tally of what I've extracted and to find what's still out there.

Did you get the numbers for deployable science? (basically just the "Go-ob ED Monitor" that rotates some mystery goo under a camera)

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, SpaceShane11 said:

Hey I just finished this challenge as my first one ever so here are the pics.

Congratulations, @SpaceShane11!

Welcome to the Clan!

We've carved your name on the cave wall, and your Talc badge has been sent to your inbox.

Unga-bunga!

[paul_c]

Well done SpaceShane11!!

I am still plugging away - main thread here: 

 

The bulk of Kerbin science is now done. I had to do almost all of it to afford the technology to even get to the Mun, but things have become smoother since then - contracts are now starting to pay better, I have the infrastructure in place (a very basic comms relay network around Kerbin and Mun) and I'm getting good at Mun encounters. 

With the Stayputnik I've done all remote Mun flights. Far space science was returned with a flyby; near space science is gathered, and 4x landings have been done (transmitting data).

Next steps....I need to plan very carefully what the next upgrade is. Miniaturisation and Electrics buy needed stuff for docking and bigger trips, but once again there is the chicken-egg scenario of, I need the science before I can buy them, but I need to buy them to give the capability to gather that science. It can be overcome - just - but its tight!

[Jacke]

11 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

Did you get the numbers for deployable science? (basically just the "Go-ob ED Monitor" that rotates some mystery goo under a camera)

LOL!  I've missed them.  I've got everything that's in the base game.

GameData/Squad/Resources/ScienceDefs.cfg

That's the parameters for the base game experiments (except the % transmissibility, which is squirrelled away someplace else).  There's 18 of them (which include Asteroid Samples and 4 types of Comet Samples).

But looking at the wiki article for Science, I've missed the Breaking Ground experiments at the bottom.  Which use this file.

GameData/SquadExpansion/Serenity/Resources/ScienceDefs.cfg

A quick check shows some of them are useable in a Caveman Career.  And that they can be exhausted, which means I need to include them.  They're also  quite fiddly and will need a decent amount of space to display them well.  Which will be tricky for the more crowded pages, so I'll need to be very tricksey meself to fit them in.

This will take a bit of time.  Thanks for pointing them out, @Blaarkies!   

[paul_c]

I've found inaccuracies in the Science wiki page - notably that the % earned due to transmission, instead of recovery, isn't right. Also its worth noting that there is a science points loss when transmission is "poor" ie (I think) under 80% but its not documented what the drop-off is. I know someone did a bit of testing to determine it - its FAR from linear! I think there is a rule of thumb that above 80% gets you the same as 100%. If you are doing the challenge, as well as spending time to predict how much science is earnable, also check the actual figures earned tally; and modify the prediction as you go along. Also the size of the part-complete bar in the R&D Science display page aren't linear either, so you can't measure it with a ruler to see the shortfalls.

Its not too critical below NCD though.

[Blaarkies]

3 hours ago, paul_c said:

 

Next steps....I need to plan very carefully what the next upgrade is. Miniaturisation and Electrics buy needed stuff for docking and bigger trips, but once again there is the chicken-egg scenario of, I need the science before I can buy them, but I need to buy them to give the capability to gather that science. It can be overcome - just - but its tight!

Amazing job on getting to the Mun in NCD! 
I would imagine your worst worries are over now, but I get the feeling that Miniaturisation and Electrics are just the second "hump" you need to get through to make it through NCD,  while Diamond was smooth sailing after reaching the Mun at least.

Did you get solar science yet? I bet you can get a return sample going with that, even without having comms at AP

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, paul_c said:

I've found inaccuracies in the Science wiki page - notably that the % earned due to transmission, instead of recovery, isn't right. Also its worth noting that there is a science points loss when transmission is "poor" ie (I think) under 80% but its not documented what the drop-off is. I know someone did a bit of testing to determine it - its FAR from linear! I think there is a rule of thumb that above 80% gets you the same as 100%. If you are doing the challenge, as well as spending time to predict how much science is earnable, also check the actual figures earned tally; and modify the prediction as you go along. Also the size of the part-complete bar in the R&D Science display page aren't linear either, so you can't measure it with a ruler to see the shortfalls.

Its not too critical below NCD though.

Thanks for pointing that out, @paul_c.  I knew about the completion bar for experiments that need multiple passes being awkward to read and always looked at the numbers.

But I've often designed for Science return rather than transmission due to the losses in transmission.  I'll likely take a gander on the actual numbers in game and to do that I think I'll have to include an antenna with some connectivity.  Like many "recent" features, I've not used KerbNet to any great degree.  Something to include with my about-to-start Caveman Topaz Career.

Transmission losses in KSP are one of my peeves with the game.  Completely understandable for many cases, but not in the implemented numbers.  Simple data like temperature and pressure have 50% losses ?!?  Only Crew Reports, EVA Reports, and the new EVA Science Kit Experiments have 100%.  And some of the worse base transmission losses are present on the highest tech experiments.  And no way in the stock game to improve them.

And to change them needs a coded mod, which I'm not set up to produce.  Unless they are actually squirrelled away in a config file that I can change with a ModuleManager script.

[paul_c]

6 minutes ago, Blaarkies said:

Amazing job on getting to the Mun in NCD! 
I would imagine your worst worries are over now, but I get the feeling that Miniaturisation and Electrics are just the second "hump" you need to get through to make it through NCD,  while Diamond was smooth sailing after reaching the Mun at least.

Did you get solar science yet? I bet you can get a return sample going with that, even without having comms at AP

I had to use the "borrow the contract engine" trick to do it - the initial Mun rocket was very very basic. I felt I needed the Terrier but I know others have done it just with the Reliant.

NCD is weird, how it imposes constraints and trade-offs. For example at the moment, there is a balance between controllability/drag and deltaV. It would be very easily solved with a few more parts, or a fairing, but I don't have those. There is so much more depth than Diamond, there is almost a viable suggestion for a level with 15% science.

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

But I've often designed for Science return rather than transmission due to the losses in transmission.  I'll likely take a gander on the actual numbers in game and to do that I think I'll have to include an antenna with some connectivity.  Like many "recent" features, I've not used KerbNet to any great degree.  Something to include with my about-to-start Caveman Topaz Career.

There's two losses. One is the built-in, known % loss due to transmitting not recovering. Fair enough - a (for example) materials sample back on Kerbin is always going to be more valuable and desirable. The other is an additional loss due to the comms link not being >80%. I am not sure if re-gathering and re-transmitting earns the remaining, or if the first loss 'sticks' and only recovery yields the additional.

There are a bunch of other constraints which make recovery difficult/impossible at this level. Well, it might be marginally possible, but it would need a few more iterations of rocket design (which costs money each launch) and of course there is an imprecision with plotting the return trajectory etc too.

[Jacke]

28 minutes ago, paul_c said:

I had to use the "borrow the contract engine" trick to do it - the initial Mun rocket was very very basic. I felt I needed the Terrier but I know others have done it just with the Reliant.

NCD is weird, how it imposes constraints and trade-offs. For example at the moment, there is a balance between controllability/drag and deltaV. It would be very easily solved with a few more parts, or a fairing, but I don't have those. There is so much more depth than Diamond, there is almost a viable suggestion for a level with 15% science.

That's exactly the point I'd gotten to in my aborted NCD campaign, last Mission used a testing Terrier to do a Mun flyby.  I'd gotten enough to unlock another node and it was a tossup between 4 Advanced Rocketry (Terrier etc.) and 4 Basic Science (Science parts, 1st Battery, 1st Relay Antenna, etc.).

Be real sure you've gotten all KSC and Kerbin Science that's easily available.  Some biomes are hard to get to, like the Badlands or the variant spots for more Splashed situations.  But there's still a lot besides, which is part of what pushed me to produce and update my Science Checklists.

In KSC's 11 Areas and 5 Structures (buildings your craft has to be touching), including Materials Study there's total 53.61 Science for an NCD Career.  Each Area biome includes a razor thin “Flying Low over...” situation that the bouncing of a Roller or a Kerbal can get if you've put up the PAW for the Flying-Low-per-biome Science Experiments: Crew Report, EVA Report, and Temperature Scan.

If you send a mission to the Island Airfield (as I did here), that Area adds another 3.81 NCD Science.  The other 3 Bases are harder to get to, but Baikerbanur and the Dessert Site have 2 Areas each for 7.62 total each.  Mind you, you'll need a well-designed Roller to land a Science Jr at any of them without breaking it.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jacke

[Jacke]

@JAFO, I've got a question about what settings should be allowed for 2 Game Difficulty settings I see on my KSP 1.11.1 install (with both Making History and Breaking Ground).

They're not on the images for the top 3 Caveman Difficulties, probably because in 2019 (when the images were uploaded) they were either not included or Expansion-only.  At least one still requires Making History.   They're on the lower left of the Basic view and are both disabled by default for all 4 standard Difficulties.

I know "Allow other Launchsites" is from Making History and it enables the Launch Button to select alternate locations.  In the VAB, besides KSC, the Dessert Launch Site and Woomerang Launch Site can be selected.  In the SPH, Island Airfield and the Dessert Airfield are also available.

Because this would give trivially easy access to another 4 Areas for Science, similar to the 11 current KSC Areas (each returning up to 3.81 Science in an NCD Career), as well as putting many other Kerbin biomes within easier reach, I would imagine "Allow other Launchsites" will be disallowed.

I'm unfamiliar with the other one, "Persist Kerbal Inventory Loadout", and I wonder what it does.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Jacke

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

Because this would give trivially easy access to another 4 Areas for Science, similar to the 11 current KSC Areas (each returning up to 3.81 Science in an NCD Career), as well as putting many other Kerbin biomes within easier reach, I would imagine "Allow other Launchsites" will be disallowed.

I would agree with that assessment. Especially since it is not enabled by default. (And also since those who've already done the challenge in 1.11 did so without it.)

Edit: I've I've updated the rules on the OP to reflect this.

 

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

I'm unfamiliar with the other one, "Persist Kerbal Inventory Loadout", and I wonder what it does.

According to Reddit, "if you enable that, Kerbals keep their inventory even after you recover them. If you take the EVA jetpack off of Jeb and then put him in a different mission, he won't have the EVA jetpack in the new mission either."

Hmm.. I see no problem either way with that.. heck, I'll probably use it myself to keep from having to constantly take their toys away from my Kerbals every single time they launch! (or is that the default-off behaviour? Not sure now. Will have to check!)

Edited February 20, 2021 by JAFO

[Jacke]

On 2/19/2021 at 5:56 AM, Blaarkies said:

Did you get the numbers for deployable science? (basically just the "Go-ob ED Monitor" that rotates some mystery goo under a camera)

@Blaarkies, if you or other Cavemen could provide me with screenshots of the results in situ and from the R&D Archives of the Breaking Ground science, that would be wonderful.

Currently getting a grip on both Deployable Experiments and Robotic Arm Scans, but I still have questions.

For the Deployables, I can calculate the rates (baseValue * Body Surface Parameter * Scientist factor), but is the max Science dependent in the same way?  Body Surface Parameter is likely.  Scientist skill increased the rate of return, but does it also increase the maximum returned?

For the Robotic Arms Scans, I'm wondering how things work when a Kerbal picks up a Tier 1 Surface Feature.

[paul_c]

I don't see "Deployable Science" in my tech tree. I pressed the button on the front screen for "About Breaking Ground Expansion..." and it takes me to this page: https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/game/breakingground/ 

Is Breaking Ground a $14.99 add-on?

[paul_c]

Thoughts please on this (only slightly crazy) idea:

I am progressing through and doing regular Minmus trips, earning the science points to earn the next square - either "General Rocketry", "Electrics" or "Miniaturisation". I am on the edge of being able to design/fly/manage a vehicle without any of those nodes' items, however each brings an advantage to the table - for example Gen Rocketry means T400 fuel tank --> reduce part count --> include more scientific instruments --> more science haul per trip. 

Miniaturisation buys docking ports, which if used to their maximum extent, removes the parts count/aerial(s)/fuel limitations - or pragmatically, doubles them. But I'd need to perform a "sideways docking":

The use of the Stayputnik at the top; and an engine at the bottom (there are no side-mounted engines in Caveman) leaves only the side for a docking port fitment. It would mess up weight balance and aerodynamics - but pretty much every other Caveman craft has similar issues, so I'm not too worried about that aspect.

But docking, with no target control, no RCS, no information........SIDEWAYS?????? I would have to (beforehand) design the thing to have the docking port on the C of G, line up the nose fairly well, set the speed at say 0.2m/s closing, do a precision 90deg turn then let the magnets do their thing???

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, paul_c said:

I don't see "Deployable Science" in my tech tree. I pressed the button on the front screen for "About Breaking Ground Expansion..." and it takes me to this page: https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/game/breakingground/ 

Is Breaking Ground a $14.99 add-on?

Yes, it's the second KSP Expansion DLC from 2019.

For Cavemen it doesn't provide a lot of extra Science and all of it would have to be done by Kerbals on Surface EVA, even more tricky for Cavemen.  For "Robotic Arm Scan", there's only Kerbals picking up Tier 1 Surface Features, possible on "easy" Caveman destinations Mun, Minmus, Ike, and Duna.

For "Deployable Science", there's only 1 of the 4 Experiments within Tech Tier 5: the "Go-ob ED Monitor" to run a Goo observation experiment.  Also required are the "Probodobodyne Experiment Control Station" and the "OX-Stat-PD Photovoltaic Panel".   And of course they're all on 3 separate Tier 5 Tech nodes, respectively Miniaturization, Space Exploration, and Electrics.

My best estimates at this moment of maximum Caveman NCD Science for these:

Nearby Tier 1 Surfaces Features (althought Kerbals picking up may only return 2/3 or even 1/3 of the Science):

Mun	12
Minmus	15
Ike	24
Duna	48

Mun, Minmus, and Ike each have 1 type of Tier 1 Surface Feature, Duna has 2.

And for the "Go-ob ED Monitor" with a 5-Star Scientist (maybe for Other, 0 to 4 Stars multiply by respectively 0.05, 0.25, 0.35, 0.45, 0.60, or 0.80):

Kerbin	1.35
Mun	18
Minmus	22.5
Gilly	40.5
Ike	36
Duna	36

These require on each Body running the experiment for at least 160 hours of daylight.  Requires a transmission link back to KSC (100% max Transmissibility); unknown if the data can be returned.  Also, the "Probodobodyne Experiment Control Station" only has a 500k Direct Antenna and may need a relay.

Note that to be sure of Surface Features, you'd need to start a new Savegame after getting and installing Breaking Ground, as stock doesn't add them to existing games to prevent collisions with existing player structures.  I've found instructions to edit a Savegame after the fact to add them in, but that's not guaranteed.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Jacke

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, paul_c said:

Thoughts please on this (only slightly crazy) idea:

You may want to look over the last MASSIVE Duna mission that @IncongruousGoat used to complete the first Caveman LCD, as he did a *lot* of side assemble in Kerbin orbit to make one craft to send to do it all.

 

Quote

..there are no side-mounted engines in Caveman....

There's the Thud, unlocked by Tier 4 Advanced Rocketry, although that may not work for what you want here.  Alas, the other 3 are in Tier 6 Precise Propulsion.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Jacke

[ManEatingApe]

1 hour ago, paul_c said:

But docking, with no target control, no RCS, no information........SIDEWAYS?????? I would have to (beforehand) design the thing to have the docking port on the C of G, line up the nose fairly well, set the speed at say 0.2m/s closing, do a precision 90deg turn then let the magnets do their thing???

That's gonna be a little tricky (but not impossible)! One idea to consider is a separate tug craft, with RCS and a decent reaction wheel that could wrangle your side by side rockets together.

[paul_c]

I am glad of the Diamond (and Hard/Topaz) docking experience. In the end, I was pretty happy with just the main engine, and RCS would be a luxury which consumed weight and parts. I might want/need it much later if/when I can unlock further nodes but not complete the tree. But for now, its still very basic tech. Its a case of "why can't I do it now" and "what does the next node get you that will change the situation". Docking ports might not buy me any real advantage (at the moment) because its twice the fuel but twice the weight, etc.... I'll need to carefully design a future craft on paper then evaluate it as a "desk research" project rather than actually fly it.

[Jacke]

10 minutes ago, paul_c said:

I am glad of the Diamond (and Hard/Topaz) docking experience.

Let's hope that bodes well for my Topaz Career, starting soon.

 

Quote

and RCS would be a luxury which consumed weight and parts.

This is KSP being stupid.  Reaction wheels and their ilk are for long station spacecraft.  Most used cold-gas RCS--which for most missions would weigh less than reaction wheels.

But even in KSP, once you get the right parts, a little RCS goes a long way.  I've used spacecraft where the final stage *was* the vessel's RCS with the remnant Monoprop, doing the mid-course corrections on the Kerbin return trajectory.  I can't remember if stock KSP reports RCS delta-V; I think it may under certain circumstances.  But for Caveman trajectory shaping, it'll likely be fine.

EDIT: There's also the 1.11 smaller RCS blocks, also under Tier 5.

But AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!! KSP!!!  Putting the first 2 round inline RCS tanks under Tier 6 Advanced Fuel Systems.

KSP is really really STUPID.

 

Quote

I might want/need it much later if/when I can unlock further nodes but not complete the tree. But for now, its still very basic tech. Its a case of "why can't I do it now" and "what does the next node get you that will change the situation". Docking ports might not buy me any real advantage (at the moment) because its twice the fuel but twice the weight, etc.... I'll need to carefully design a future craft on paper then evaluate it as a "desk research" project rather than actually fly it.

You have to find your way through the Career with your spacecraft and Tech progression.  But Docking Ports become vital when you reach the limit to what 18t and 30 parts can do.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Jacke

[paul_c]

I did a calculation a while ago, the I_SP of mono/RCS was a bit lower than liquid fuel, so I've never fancied it that much. KSP doesn't report the deltaV of mono either.

Docking ports are definitely on the list, its just a case of when not if!

Anyway, my back-of-the-envelope calculation said I can unlock all of Gen Rocketry, Electrics, Miniaturisation just with transmitting (no return needed) so (I think) its more of a nicety to maximise science-per-flight, rather than a dead end to avoid. Obviously, return trips are needed at some point anyway for NCD, so its my focus for now.

[Blaarkies]

11 hours ago, Jacke said:

@Blaarkies, if you or other Cavemen could provide me with screenshots of the results in situ and from the R&D Archives of the Breaking Ground science, that would be wonderful.

Sure thing, i forgot to ask about the Mun stones as well, but i see you got them. So the Mun Stone had a 100% return rate (they can't be transmitted at all). On my Diamond run, only the first Mun Stone counted towards the 24 I got from it (I mentioned in my report thread that it is kind of like a stationary science sensor experiment, with a global situation)

Here you go, the first 2 images are the Mun stone, and the deployable science. My Mun deployable science didn't get enough time to complete since I finished the challenge before that. The other images are just for interest sake.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I find it funny how Atmospheric pressure science is worth more when near Eve, than when it is literally in the upper atmosphere of Eve where there is at least something to measure 

Material bay science seems to be by far the largest source of  , and the craft recovery bonus gets pretty nice for places outside Kerbin.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Blaarkies

[Blaarkies]

10 hours ago, paul_c said:

But docking, with no target control, no RCS, no information........SIDEWAYS?????? I would have to (beforehand) design the thing to have the docking port on the C of G, line up the nose fairly well, set the speed at say 0.2m/s closing, do a precision 90deg turn then let the magnets do their thing???

One cool thing about the sideways COM docking is that you can rotate the craft (and thus the thrust direction) without moving the docking port around. So get yourself to move towards the other docking port, then adjust your translation in this way without having much control over your direct forward speed.

Its like the docking version of riding a unicycle