1.12 Autostrut - changes

[pquade]

Previously with "Autostrut: Root Part"  auto strutted to the root part of the entire craft and across docking ports.  This meant you could have sections A (root), B, C separated by docking ports and the autostrut would go all the way to the A section's root.  Now it appears as if anything on the C section only goes as far as the docking port that connects it to B, and anything on B only goes as far and the docking port which connects it to A.

This inability to cross docking ports with auto struts also seems to apply to  Autostrut: Grandparent, and Heaviest.

Not a huge issue, but a change for sure and was quite the surprise when I loaded in one of my larger stations.

Edited June 25, 2021 by pquade
spellos and also

[Geonovast]

Well, this is unfortunate.  Thanks for pointing that out.

This would actually be a pretty big issue for me.  Hopefully it's unintentional and it'll be ironed out in 1.12.1.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the autostruts not passing through robotics unless they're locked... maybe some of the robotics code made it into the new rotation function of the ports.

[pquade]

17 hours ago, Geonovast said:

Well, this is unfortunate.  Thanks for pointing that out.

This would actually be a pretty big issue for me.  Hopefully it's unintentional and it'll be ironed out in 1.12.1.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the autostruts not passing through robotics unless they're locked... maybe some of the robotics code made it into the new rotation function of the ports.

I have a proper bug report filed with logs and a test craft file for them now.  Hopefully this doesn't take them too long to figure out because this absolutely breaks my larger stations.

[Quoniam Kerman]

Since docking ports now are articulated to rotate a bit, it might mean that autostrut between them is just impossible now, I don't know if it is a bug. 

[pquade]

24 minutes ago, Quoniam Kerman said:

Since docking ports now are articulated to rotate a bit, it might mean that autostrut between them is just impossible now, I don't know if it is a bug. 

I would hope not.  The original mod for this (Dock Rotate) solved the issue of rotating docking ports while still maintaining autostrut functionality.  Maybe they can chat with Pete and look at what he had done.

https://github.com/peteletroll

Edited June 25, 2021 by pquade
spellos, it's always spellos.

[Cavscout74]

Previously, autostruts to root could sometimes cause issues when docking/undocking as they re-routed to the new root part so this could be intended - or could be a by-product of the docking port rotation

[pquade]

29 minutes ago, Cavscout74 said:

Previously, autostruts to root could sometimes cause issues when docking/undocking as they re-routed to the new root part so this could be intended - or could be a by-product of the docking port rotation

I've used autostrut to root for years.  They are a regular feature of all my larger stations and asteroid harvesters.  While I admit that can sometimes in some circumstances appear to be more art than science, and especially years ago when they were first introduced, they have become a staple of my designs and I find them more than reasonable to use.

Besides, this isn't just a root problem, this is also a heaviest and grandparent issue which means currently in 1.12 there is no solution for wobbly space stations or multi-sectional larger craft.

Edited June 25, 2021 by pquade

[Jack Mcslay]

So I noticed, I was turning a space station that wasn't even that large and the lander was flopping ridiculously until I reduced the force on the lander's reaction wheel. I'll have to check, but so far I haven't noticed the same happening with asteroids being moved around

[eekee]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:43 PM, pquade said:

Besides, this isn't just a root problem, this is also a heaviest and grandparent issue which means currently in 1.12 there is no solution for wobbly space stations or multi-sectional larger craft.

Don't forget you can fit conventional struts in orbit since 1.11. I guess it doesn't really help with docked craft unless you want to get an engineer out on EVA with every dock and undock operation. Now I think about it, adding struts might be realistic for craft docked to space stations which need to turn. Space stations aren't generally expected to turn very often AFAIK.

I didn't know autostrut existed until recently, so my docking procedure included turning SAS off the moment the docking succeeded and I didn't build stations. I started to build stations in 1.11 when EVA construction made it possible to add external struts. The procedure was: dock, SAS off, add struts, SAS on. It worked fine, except for one station where one of the ships had loads of parts as cargo but carried externally, including a lot of struts. That one was kraken bait.

All the same, I think I'd prefer autostrut to go through docking ports if it doesn't cause issues. EVA construction is a little bit tough.

Edited June 30, 2021 by eekee
Brain kept working.

[pquade]

31 minutes ago, eekee said:

Don't forget you can fit conventional struts in orbit since 1.11.

Heh.  Are you sure?!
 

 

[eekee]

20 minutes ago, pquade said:

Heh.  Are you sure?

Hahaha! Very funny video, and yes, EVA construction does have some terrible issues triggered by just picking a part up ready to place. Twice, I've had it suddenly decide not to let me place a docking port anywhere, not even to drop it. I couldn't even pause the game. I was almost surprised when it responded to F9. The first time, I didn't even have a quicksave & could only force-quit the game. However, I have successfully placed a number of struts and docking ports without these issues in EVA construction, so I still believe in it. ... I just make very sure to quicksave first.

Edited June 30, 2021 by eekee

[Anth]

Applying physical struts using EVA construction is problematic because they use different part identifiers to decide they are connected. In a good amount of cases people will find physical struts will not be attached on reloading the scene, without knowing that information

I have heard from multiple sources that the docking ports will have a lock feature in the next planned update of 1.12 that allows the autostrut through. its already fixed we just have to wait until then.

The real problem is the new docking ports now suffer from a similar issue to robotic drift.

That's where reusability is going to be a real problem

Edited June 30, 2021 by Anth12

[JPLRepo]

Watch out for the next patch.

[Anth]

Now my interest is definitely peaked!

[pquade]

21 hours ago, JPLRepo said:

Watch out for the next patch.

Patiently awaiting.  Fingers crossed.

[teelaurila]

This is a huge issue for me.

Basically every station I built has become a huge pain to dock to because of all the wobblyness. And every larger mission ship a pain to control. Using engineers to manually EVA construct struts after every dock is not just meh and a pain in itself, but since I can have only so many engineers in career it's really a non-option.

Perhaps making everything Rigid Connect from the start could help, but I doubt it would too much, since it's the docking port connections that are made of blubber (like, how hard is it shove a titanium bar through once docked to make it as rigid as you have mass for).

If anyone knows of a mod or some other way to make things of metal instead of blubber again, would appreciate greatly.

Edited July 6, 2021 by teelaurila

[pquade]

56 minutes ago, teelaurila said:

This is a huge issue for me.

Yep, same here.  Fortunately it looks like we'll be getting a fix in the next update, but who knows how long until that is?

I hope it's soon, because I have a Class E asteroid intercept coming up in about 7 Kerbin days, and without a fix I'm afraid to touch it.  Meanwhile, I slow peddle my long term career save.

Edited July 6, 2021 by pquade

[teelaurila]

35 minutes ago, pquade said:

Yep, same here.  Fortunately it looks like we'll be getting a fix in the next update, but who knows how long until that is?

I hope it's soon, because I have a Class E asteroid intercept coming up in about 7 Kerbin days, and without a fix I'm afraid to touch it.  Meanwhile, I slow peddle my long term career save.

Do try that 'roid. Klaws seems to work a bit better than ports. And turning slowly probably shouldn't be a huge problem. Beside, you can always stop rotation with a time warp.

[pquade]

2 hours ago, teelaurila said:

Do try that 'roid. Klaws seems to work a bit better than ports. And turning slowly probably shouldn't be a huge problem. Beside, you can always stop rotation with a time warp.

Unfortunately, my asteroid harvester is composed of multiple docked parts; drill section, ore and fuel tanks, engine unit . . . 

It can barely stay in one piece under the current circumstance.  Just trying to turn it for the rendezvous burn without it tearing itself apart is going to be tricky

[teelaurila]

11 minutes ago, pquade said:

Unfortunately, my asteroid harvester is composed of multiple docked parts; drill section, ore and fuel tanks, engine unit . . . 

It can barely stay in one piece under the current circumstance.  Just trying to turn it for the rendezvous burn without it tearing itself apart is going to be tricky

Ouch, I feel you.

I've managed to save a couple of my modular craft using struts left  on them due to how they were attached for Kerbin ascent. A single "pin" left over, can actually be attached again to a working pair by an engineer. For the crafts that happen to have an engineer aboard, though mining parts tends to increase the odds.

[Slyguy3129]

On 7/6/2021 at 3:29 PM, pquade said:

Unfortunately, my asteroid harvester is composed of multiple docked parts; drill section, ore and fuel tanks, engine unit . . . 

It can barely stay in one piece under the current circumstance.  Just trying to turn it for the rendezvous burn without it tearing itself apart is going to be tricky

Maybe YOU should build a better ship? Nothing needs to be changed here.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Slyguy3129
?

[pquade]

14 hours ago, Slyguy3129 said:

Maybe YOU should build a better ship? Nothing needs to be changed here.

I'm sorry you didn't like my reply to one of your other posts, but it was in fact the correct answer, unlike yours here.

[Slyguy3129]

6 hours ago, pquade said:

I'm sorry you didn't like my reply to one of your other posts, but it was in fact the correct answer, unlike yours here.

Just build a better ship.

[Vanamonde]

The fact that others are having similar issues indicates that it isn't a problem with ship design. 

[Lt_Duckweed]

For fun bonus frustration, docking ports also inherited the robotic drift bug.

If a craft has no docking ports or robotics, and it gets bent via some sort of stress, you can quicksave and quickload to restore it to an unbent state.

With robotics parts, anything that is on the child tree of the robotics part instead become permanently bent when you quicksave and quickload.

With a single docking port on the craft, EVERY SINGLE PART on the entire craft will become permanently bent if you quicksave and quickload while under stress.

This nearly ruined my recent mission, which happened to span across 1.11 and 1.12.  It launched in 1.11 with a docked lander and lander transfer tank, and was nice and rigid,  when the whole craft (main craft, transfer tank, and lander) landed on Laythe, the now floppy connections let the lander and transfer tank severely droop, and unknowingly at the time, saving on the surface of Laythe made the droop permanent.  This nearly ruined the whole mission because the nerv engine on the lander pulled double duty as the only vaccum engine for the whole mission.   And for the ascent up from Laythe and the transfer home it was off center, but fortunately my reaction wheels were just barely strong enough to handle it and I had enough margins to correct all the burns that were thrown off by the off center engine.

The really important thing to note about this is that any craft sitting on a surface is under stress, and will bend a tiny amount even with autostruts.  What this means is that in 1.12, if you craft has a docking port, the little bends will become permanent every time you save, meaning no matter how well you design your craft, you have a limited number of loads before it slowly but surely bends to unusability.