Thoughts on the new ground anchor.

[theJesuit]

So I had a quick tutu (play around) with the new ground anchor.... 

It seems even though we can rotate it prefers to be deployed, well flat.  But when you add additional parts to it in construction mode you are able to rotate them.

This means surface attached bases will have a ground parallel anchor but you need to rotate a part to make it flat and thisbis possible.

It does appear that to can't attach a part to it that clips into the ground.  Lookong forward to trying pistons as in some of the streamers videos pre 1.12.

Peace.

[swjr-swis]

57 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

It does appear that to can't attach a part to it that clips into the ground. 

You can't clip into the ground when you first place the part, but the offset/rotate gizmos have no such restrictions... parts can be offset/rotated into the ground. This is not an issue. We'll be able to clip as required to get constructs without unfashionable gaps with the ground.

 

However:

59 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

This means surface attached bases will have a ground parallel anchor but you need to rotate a part to make it flat and thisbis possible.

This is unfortunatelynot entirely true. They've chosen to make the 'absolute' mode of offset/rotation in construction mode relative to the ground anchor... including whatever random angle of inclination it gains from being placed on a non-perfectly flat surface (which other than the immediate vicinity of the KSC or the Minmus Flats, is pretty much everywhere). Additionally, the anchor itself cannot be offset or rotated in any way once placed to adjust or correct this.

This is a very unfortunate choice, because it makes it exceedingly difficult to make whatever base part one places on the anchor to be perfectly level with ASL - we have to basically 'wing' it visually on the non-snap mode, and without any help from either surroundings or the gizmo indicator (which will have the same inclination as the anchor in 'absolute' mode, or whatever random inclination the base part had right before picking it up in 'local' mode).

Since that 'absolute' mode also inherits the 'heading' of the anchor, and the anchor itself cannot be rotated once placed, we also can't align the construction coordinate system with either the real absolute headings (NSWE) or by extension, any other placed anchors.

I get why making the anchor align itself with the surface makes sense from the animation point of view, but if the anchor is going to also be the origin of the 'absolute' construction coordinate system including inclination and heading, it's going to be hell for precise/level construction and to properly line up/connect separate base parts.

Is there any way to make/change the 'absolute' construction coordinate system on the surface to actually be absolute, ie. leveled and snapped to the navball headings, like in the VAB/SPH?  The ground anchor can only be used on a CB surface, so there would never be a circumstance in which the system does not have this information readily available.

[theJesuit]

42 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

, but the offset/rotate gizmos have no such restrictions

I tried on the launchpad today.  Wouldn't let me place a part that was clipped into the launchpad.  Part turned red i think.

 

44 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

we have to basically 'wing' it visually on the non-snap mode, and without any help from either surroundings or the gizmo indicator

Yes.   This will be the biggest issue for me.

Hopefully a mod will produce a part that will reshape to be a level.

[swjr-swis]

38 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

I tried on the launchpad today.  Wouldn't let me place a part that was clipped into the launchpad.  Part turned red i think.

Was your previous test also on the launch pad, or the runway? I tested out in open terrain. That may be significant - it may mean the construction system views the KSC buildings (which probably includes some of the flat ground 'slabs' around the building) as obstructions. I did notice it sees kerbals as obstructions, or other vehicles. Not empty ground though.

[theJesuit]

On launchpad.  So yes.

[swjr-swis]

Uhm, no Bill... that is not what I meant.

[swjr-swis]

The issue, in screenshots:

Spoiler

Trying to place the anchor aligned properly by 'eye' on the navball. Sloped surface, so when it falls at placing it, it gains a bit of angle depending on how it bounces.

The anchor can no longer be offset or rotated once placed, so we add a part and try it with that. Simply bolt it onto the attachment node. Hmm. That doesn't look right...

No matter, I'll just snap it proper with the rotation.. wait what? *That* is 'absolute' mode??

Oh and that's 'local'. That's gonna be... helpful. How to get it level/upright with those as reference?

Bill, does this look upright to you?

Maybe this...?

Maybe the rotation gizmo not being orthogonal was just an oversight. The offset tool seems to be doing the right thing. Won't change the angle, but it's something.

Proof that in open terrain, anchored parts can be offset-clipped into the ground. Good.

Rotated into the ground too. Also good. Wait... why is the offset 'absolute' mode no longer pointing the right directions?? Looks to be aligned with the anchor again. Peachy.

I'll be honest: I don't really know what the gizmos align/snap to in absolute mode. I thought it was the anchor, but that doesn't seem to be the case either.

No matter how I try to snap it proper, it stays slightly off-angle and off-center from the anchor as well. Only way I can correct this is by turning off snap and trying to do it purely visual, without aid from the orientation of the gizmos.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by swjr-swis

[The Aziz]

6 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

Uhm, no Bill... that is not what I meant.

There's a good reason for that  

Also would be nice if we could temporarily pin things to the ground, like ever-sliding landers and rovers, but I'm not sure if that's possible if the anchor isn't the first part placed on the ground. Haven't tested it though.

[swjr-swis]

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Also would be nice if we could temporarily pin things to the ground, like ever-sliding landers and rovers, but I'm not sure if that's possible if the anchor isn't the first part placed on the ground. Haven't tested it though.

The ground anchor isn't like any of the other parts: it doesn't come available to grab and place when you enter construction mode - the placing happens through a special tiny icon in the corner of its inventory thumbnail. Iow. you can't 'build' with it the normal way. So yes, in any construct, it has to be the first part placed, or you won't be able to attach it to anything.

[ColdJ]

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

There's a good reason for that  

Also would be nice if we could temporarily pin things to the ground, like ever-sliding landers and rovers, but I'm not sure if that's possible if the anchor isn't the first part placed on the ground. Haven't tested it though.

Might be able to be mixed with the Aircraft Carriers Accessories mods ground attachment point for tying down aircraft. The mod was created before cargo parts were a thing but if you added the right module to the config so that it could be carried and attached by an Engineer, it should work. So there would be the attachment point on the aircraft and the ground attachment point on this new ground anchor.

[The Aziz]

Aha, I have good news. I posted it in other thread but I think it will fit here too: you can effectively stop the sliding using EVA construction + KAS combo.

You place the anchor near the sliding vessel, attach a winch or other mechanism to it, place the connector on the ship, connect the two. Boom, no sliding at all. Tested on slopes of Eve and Moho, not an inch of movement.

[Nazalassa]

On 8/4/2021 at 9:18 PM, swjr-swis said:

Additionally, the anchor itself cannot be offset or rotated in any way once placed to adjust or correct this.

Just edit the save file persistent.sfs, or use SIMPLEX assembly (not sure the mod will work, but I'll try)

On 8/4/2021 at 9:18 PM, swjr-swis said:

Since that 'absolute' mode also inherits the 'heading' of the anchor, and the anchor itself cannot be rotated once placed, we also can't align the construction coordinate system with either the real absolute headings (NSWE) or by extension, any other placed anchors.

Put a probe on it (DON'T USE THE ATTACHMENT POINT OF THE ANCHOR) rotated so it faces the other ground anchor or the cardinal direction you want (target mode), then put a hubmax rotated so it aligns with the probe. That's the closest approach we are able to do so far.

On 8/4/2021 at 10:04 PM, theJesuit said:

Hopefully a mod will produce a part that will reshape to be a level.

Is the mod out?

On 8/5/2021 at 7:38 AM, The Aziz said:

Also would be nice if we could temporarily pin things to the ground, like ever-sliding landers and rovers, but I'm not sure if that's possible if the anchor isn't the first part placed on the ground. Haven't tested it though.

Place an Anchor, then a docking port on it, then dock your craft to it.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Nazalassa

[SkyFall2489]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:38 PM, The Aziz said:

Also would be nice if we could temporarily pin things to the ground, like ever-sliding landers and rovers, but I'm not sure if that's possible if the anchor isn't the first part placed on the ground. Haven't tested it though.

Doable with either Parking Brake or USI Tools. Some other mods may have something like this as well.