New heat protection

[Vortygont]

Hello, this topic has probably already been discussed, but it seemed to me that it is still suspended in the air, because there is no clear confirmation of adding a new type of heat shield

The tools available in the game you can not protect every ship from re-entry, because for this you only have heat shields. I've had many instances where my mk1 shuttle would overheat and be very difficult to land from space. I cheated and reduced the heat exposure in the settings .  What if players want to create a starship that will enter the atmosphere of mars from the second space speed or other heavy landers that can't use standard heat shields? 

Why not add the ability to cover aircraft hulls and tanks with heat shields in addition to the standard heat shields to start with. For example it could look like covering a certain surface of the underside of the craft with heat tiles. Definitely need a parameter to control the amount of coverage. For example the angle of 180 degrees is half of full coverage, the angle of 240 degrees is 4/3 of full coverage. Of course this would change the location of the center of mass, shifting it to the heat shield, and increase the weight, significantly. Obviously the surface area of the plane would be larger than that of the capsule. So they could be balanced in terms of gameplay

I think this could enter the game as organically as the other procedural parts - wings and radiators. It will be easier to create spaceplanes, shuttles, gliders like esa spacerider or SUSIE , and others, which will increase creative freedom


Honestly I think the issue of procedural heat shielding should be approached in a more advanced way, as about an arbitrarily shaped hull protecting the craft at re-entry into the atmosphere. Probably the mechanics of this part would be similar to the fairing mechanics. Just look at the source of inspiration - NASA's Havoc Venus mission



UPD:

I created a concept for heat protection for different surfaces, like wings and, plane cabins and hulls

Here is a conception for heat protection for wings or another hull type details. If you want to apply heat protection for wing, you open heat category in redactor and choose icon, which looks like an abstract plate with specific texture. This icon with plate means a material you cover your detail. In information window it has a description, temperature and other limits, cost on surface unit, density and graphic of square density on square unit from material’s thickness. When material is chosen you click on wing, and lower surface of wing is covered by this material. Clicking on material you open its properties window, where you can change thickness of material on detail. Also I think there can be advanced settings if you want to cover not only bottom, but front of wing or cabin, and make cover as on pictures below

Heat wear of material will be individual for each detail of craft which has it (individual wear of protection for every detail). Concerns, that there will be more calculations, I believe are overstated. Temperature overlay (f11) already exists and heat for every detail is calculated individually already. Other argument that wing now doesn’t consist from many details – it is one detail and probably heats as one detail. Less details – less calculations

It will not conflict with traditional heat shields, they are details. I suggest a function of covering of detail by thermal protection

Another bonus suggestions: Inflatable shields could be also improved by adding new shields with different diameters and adding wear for inflatable shields:) Also it will be cool to see GIGANTIC heat shields for  atmosphere breaking like in bbc voyage to the planets or sun dive

The heat details must have significant improvements, becuase reentry is important part of game. I like that radiators will be procedural, it is very useful improvement. I would like to see significant developments in thermal protection, it will change game in good way

I believe that it will improve of creation of gliders, shuttles, spaceplanes and other non-capsule type crafts

Edited November 24, 2022 by Vortygont
Added heat protection concept to not create new topic

[jastrone]

i think it would be great to have a heat shield system similar to the flags in ksp 1 where they are a part that attatches to surfaces. they could pe procedural in the way that you could change the length and all that and maybe that they bend around the part proceduraly so that they always fit. but yhea we defenetly need a new system for heat shields. the old one is not going to work.

[GoldForest]

Conformal heat shields would be awesome. 

@Vortygont In reference to your overheating shuttles, you need to take a shallower descent angle. You spend more time in reentry, but the heating is less. Make your periapsis about 30km or more. 

[Rutabaga22]

2 hours ago, jastrone said:

they could pe procedural in the way that you could change the length and all that and maybe that they bend around the part proceduraly so that they always fit.

I would like to be able to choose how high up they wrap so I can have my nose shield wrap up a bit more than the rest of it.

[Vortygont]

11 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Conformal heat shields would be awesome. 

@Vortygont In reference to your overheating shuttles, you need to take a shallower descent angle. You spend more time in reentry, but the heating is less. Make your periapsis about 30km or more. 

But my construction is so specific. When I was about 40 km, my space plane needs second reentry, because it has lifting power and not slows down like capsule. It is hard to guide it to runway and it is also quite long. Of space plane is under 40 km, than it has heat problem, so I connect to its cabin a radiator, because cabin heats more than others parts

 

And so it's why we need advanced system of heat protection, to make crafts with any possible shapes. It is for situations, when shape is stable in reentry, but you don't have parts to make what you want, because game doesn't have ways to make heat protection for it. Of course for creativity freedom

[Vortygont]

@GoldForestHere is what happens with my spaceplane without heat shielding. It is about why new heat protection is very important.
I have periapsis 45km and apoapsis 90 km. Here is a footage

And the tragetic end

If mk1 plane cabin could have a termal protection, it would survive the reentry. There are obvious constraints for spaceplanes in ksp because of heat

 

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, Vortygont said:

@GoldForestHere is what happens with my spaceplane without heat shielding. It is about why new heat protection is very important.
I have periapsis 45km and apoapsis 90 km. Here is a footage
 

And the tragetic end
 

If mk1 plane cabin could have a termal protection, it would survive the reentry. There are obvious constraints for spaceplanes in ksp because of heat

 

Well, to be fair, the Mk1 cockpit was never designed for orbital flight. It's heat tollerance is too low.

[Vortygont]

27 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Well, to be fair, the Mk1 cockpit was never designed for orbital flight. It's heat tollerance is too low.

But another mk1 plane cabin we don't have. In KSP is stock spacecarft  - shuttle with plane mk1 cabin, but it heats much too. It's frustrating when you've made a working craft, but the game just doesn't have the functionality you need.
I hope the lack of thermal protection for the various gliders will be addressed, because this is a significant and large area of creativity. Such types of spacecraft are becomig more popular (dream chaser, esa spacerider, starship) and you will probably want to craft something like them

 

[Vortygont]

I updated firat post in topic, wait for critique and suggestions

 

[CyanAstro]

Some of the plane command modules in Ksp 2 have been shown to have heat shield tiles such as the large space-shuttle cabin and the mk 2 cabin. Hopefully this means we will get some sort of procedural heatshields. 

[Vortygont]

38 minutes ago, CyanAstro said:

Some of the plane command modules in Ksp 2 have been shown to have heat shield tiles such as the large space-shuttle cabin and the mk 2 cabin. Hopefully this means we will get some sort of procedural heatshields. 

I'm not sure about it, it can be only a texture. And developers didn't mention this moment

 

[GoldForest]

19 hours ago, Vortygont said:

But another mk1 plane cabin we don't have. In KSP is stock spacecarft  - shuttle with plane mk1 cabin, but it heats much too. It's frustrating when you've made a working craft, but the game just doesn't have the functionality you need.
I hope the lack of thermal protection for the various gliders will be addressed, because this is a significant and large area of creativity. Such types of spacecraft are becomig more popular (dream chaser, esa spacerider, starship) and you will probably want to craft something like them

 

Neither Mk 1 cockpit was made for space travel. They're meant to make airliners and jets, not spaceplanes. The Mk2 and the Mk3 are the only cockpits space rated since they have over 2000 K heat tolerance. 

Honestly, I feel like they should add new micro shuttle parts instead of making the Mk1 survive reentry. Or give us conformal/modular heat panels like you suggest. 

Also, a problem with your design might be that it has little surface area for heat to spread out. Try adding more wing area, maybe even some belly wings. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by GoldForest

[Vortygont]

1 hour ago, GoldForest said:

Neither Mk 1 cockpit was made for space travel. They're meant to make airliners and jets, not spaceplanes. The Mk2 and the Mk3 are the only cockpits space rated since they have over 2000 K heat tolerance. 

Honestly, I feel like they should add new micro shuttle parts instead of making the Mk1 survive reentry. Or give us conformal/modular heat panels like you suggest. 

Also, a problem with your design might be that it has little surface area for heat to spread out. Try adding more wing area, maybe even some belly wings. 

Not quite so. Stock crafts Aeris 4A and Slim shuttle were made for space flights, space usage for mk1 plane cabin was envisaged. But reentry is still their the most dangerous moment. If adding a heat panels is too complicated (I don't believe it is so), than add mk1 plane cabins with different usage - for spaceplanes and for atmospheric planes, So it could be and for mk2 and mk3

[GoldForest]

16 minutes ago, Vortygont said:

Not quite so. Stock crafts Aeris 4A and Slim shuttle were made for space flights, space usage for mk1 plane cabin was envisaged. But reentry is still their the most dangerous moment. If adding a heat panels is too complicated (I don't believe it is so), than add mk1 plane cabins with different usage - for spaceplanes and for atmospheric planes, So it could be and for mk2 and mk3

I think they're more supposed to be sub orbital flights, like the X-15 or the upcoming Concorde 2, seeing as the temperature tolerance is around 1200 K.

[Vortygont]

35 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

I think they're more supposed to be sub orbital flights, like the X-15 or the upcoming Concorde 2, seeing as the temperature tolerance is around 1200 K.

Here are pages from ksp wiki

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Aeris_4A

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Slim_Shuttle

One is single stage to orbit, another is orbiter

[GoldForest]

2 minutes ago, Vortygont said:

Here are pages from ksp wiki

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Aeris_4A

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Slim_Shuttle

One is single stage to orbit, another is orbiter

Oh, I forgot about those, my apologizes. Hmm.  

Well, this has gotten off topic, so I'm going to end this here. All I have left to say is MM the temperature tolerance up. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by GoldForest