Early Access and options for M1 Mac owners

[Shmauck]

As suggested, I am taking this topic to a separate thread because it may be interesting for others.

We have some level of certainty that Macs are not going to be supported during Early Access. This fact currently gives me a bit of a headache.

I started a small YouTube channel with KSP tutorials in German two years ago. With KSP2 on the horizon, I purchased a very powerful (and thus very expensive) M1 Max MacBook Pro, hoping it would run KSP2 with ease. I was expecting the game to be released on Steam for both Windows and MacOS.  

I am feeling a bit stuck. I crave to have the EA version on day 1 and also wish to put new content on my YT channel from day one. But what do I do if I find out on February 24th that my computer won‘t run the game?

Running a dual boot on an M1 with a Windows ARM in a separate boot seems to be somewhat tricky and probably nothing I want to try.  Especially if I need to reboot after each take to edit the content within the MacOS environment.

There are comments about Steam Play or Proton but I am not sure what that means. Is there any hope that I can run the game under MacOS when it is released on Steam?

If not, I would even go as far as getting myself a mid-range Windows gaming PC if necessary but of course that is not my favorite option as it requires further investments. 

Can someone please provide more Information on M1 Mac compatibility via Steam Play? Thanks!

[Pthigrivi]

Im a bit in the same boat sadly. My hope is that I can get it working on Parallels. Based on recent games it seems like a 50/50 chance with some trouble shooting and I've just got my fingers crossed. Sometimes there are weird graphics errors, sometimes key bindings get screwy, but about half the time games run just fine with no issues. Im sure the devs can't promise anything at this point but if there was any way to accommodate that it would give a big block of KSP's fanbase a chance to get in on things. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Bej Kerman]

38 minutes ago, Shmauck said:

As suggested, I am taking this topic to a separate thread because it may be interesting for others.

We have some level of certainty that Macs are not going to be supported during Early Access. This fact currently gives me a bit of a headache.

I started a small YouTube channel with KSP tutorials in German two years ago. With KSP2 on the horizon, I purchased a very powerful (and thus very expensive) M1 Max MacBook Pro, hoping it would run KSP2 with ease. I was expecting the game to be released on Steam for both Windows and MacOS.  

I am feeling a bit stuck. I crave to have the EA version on day 1 and also wish to put new content on my YT channel from day one. But what do I do if I find out on February 24th that my computer won‘t run the game?

 

Running a dual boot on an M1 with a Windows ARM in a separate boot seems to be somewhat tricky and probably nothing I want to try.  Especially if I need to reboot after each take to edit the content within the MacOS environment.

There are comments about Steam Play or Proton but I am not sure what that means. Is there any hope that I can run the game under MacOS when it is released on Steam?

If not, I would even go as far as getting myself a mid-range Windows gaming PC if necessary but of course that is not my favorite option as it requires further investments. 

Can someone please provide more Information on M1 Mac compatibility via Steam Play? Thanks!

I am aware Mutahar uses VMWare and not VirtualBox, but I maintain that the VMWare logo looks terrible, especially in a meme format.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Bej Kerman
supertypo

[PopinFRESH]

Reposting for context

On 1/4/2023 at 11:16 AM, PopinFRESH said:

Probably worth putting this into its own thread, however, for a brief answer here for you Steam's Remote Play Together feature allows you to "stream" a game from a PC to another device like their previous Steam Link, your phone/tablet, or your Mac. So if you do what you were thinking with a mid-range Windows gaming PC then you could still play on your MacBook Pro, with the game actually running on your Windows PC. You might encounter some oddities depending on how you have your setup for capturing/streaming content on your MacBook Pro but it should be doable if you're using OBS to do a screen capture rather than a window capture, etc. The Steam client for Mac works fine for doing remote play, and the remote play functionality is very light weight so it should be very minimal impact running the Steam Mac client via Rosetta2 in order to use it for remote play.

Alternatively, you could also just capture the output from the mid-range Windows PC via something like the Elgato Game Capture HD60 X on your MacBook Pro and play on the Windows PC. If you have any other questions on this feel free to send me a direct message or start a new thread in the KSP 2 Discussion forum and I'd be happy to answer any other questions.

You'll have a few options to consider that I didn't mention previously.

If you want to try to avoid needing to purchase a Windows PC as described previously you can try out Parallels Desktop for Mac when KSP2 early access launches on Feb 24th and see if this works well enough for your content. This would also allow you to run other Windows native applications on your Mac so this may be beneficial beyond just KSP2 if you have any other Windows programs you'd like to use. Some things to keep in mind for consideration with Parallels

1. The standard version is normally $99 as a one-time purchase license for the current version. This version is limited to 4 vCPUs (virtual CPUs) and 8GB of vRAM (virtual memory) so we'll have to wait until they publish the minimum system requirements to see if this might struggle running the game. Having used Parallels before, this also may have some issues trying to run "3D" applications, such as games, depending on the GPU which may be more problematic on Apple Silicon.
2. The pro version is a subscription model which is normally $119/yr which would allow up to 32 vCPUs and 128GB of vRAM. Assuming the game works ok with the trial then you should likely be able to use this license as it should be sufficient in terms of system requirements.
3. You'll need a copy of Windows, which you can also install and use as a trial while running the Parallels trial just to see if this option is viable. If so you'll need to get a Windows license and activate it.

Otherwise, if you end up going the route of getting/building a mid-range gaming PC then I'd personally recommend doing the latter of my previous suggestions. Get the Game Capture HD60 X and use it to capture 1080p60 on your Mac while you play the game on the PC. While Steam Remote Play is awesome technology and great, it will be much easier to capture footage for your purpose using a capture device that support M1 Macs via Thunderbolt like the HD60 X. 

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I am aware Mutahar uses VMWare and not VirtualBox, but I maintain that the VirtualBox logo looks terrible, especially in a meme format.

Afaik VirtualBox doesn't support Apple Silicon.

EDIT: Just checked on Oracle's site and it seems that they now have a developer preview version of VirtualBox 7 which runs their virtualization on top of an x86 emulation layer. Likely even more potential for problems trying to run a 3D accelerated application and probably not something the OP would want to deal with while just trying to create content.

Quote

We are also providing an installer package as a developer preview. This is available for macOS/Arm64 systems using an Apple Silicon CPU to run some guest operating systems for Intel/AMD x86 CPUs in an emulation. This developer preview represents a work in progress project and provides early access to unsupported software features.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by PopinFRESH

[Shmauck]

Another option could be cloud gaming. I have tried KSP1 on a Shadow cloud PC and that actually worked quite well. I may be looking into GeForce Now or Google Stadia until end of February.

Either way, I really like the Elgato solution as I am using OBS for capturing anyway which is now available in an Apple Silicon version. 

[PopinFRESH]

50 minutes ago, Shmauck said:

...There are comments about Steam Play or Proton but I am not sure what that means. Is there any hope that I can run the game under MacOS when it is released on Steam?...

Can someone please provide more Information on M1 Mac compatibility via Steam Play? Thanks!

Regarding this specifically.

Steam Play, also known as Steam Remote Play or Steam Remote Play Together, was discussed in my prior post and the link to what it is and how it works is there.

Proton is a fork of Wine that Valve developed and supports with additional gaming focused additions and features. Wine was originally developed and is still hosted by CodeWeavers whom also makes a paid and supported variant called CrossOver  which works on Linux and Mac (including Apple Silicon). Proton however doesn't have support for macOS as it relies on several linux system libraries that macOS does not have and/or does not have an equivalent. There is quite a lot of nitty-gritty developer level details regarding Proton on Valve's Partner Documentation Site. So the long-story-short is that Proton isn't going to really help you with your situation so you can largely disregard those discussions as they are likely geared toward running the game on Linux. CrossOver, however, may be another solution which you can get a trial to see if it will run KSP2 reasonably on your Mac once the Early Access begins.

[whatsEJstandfor]

9 minutes ago, Shmauck said:

Google Stadia until end of February.

Stadia is shutting down in a couple weeks

[PopinFRESH]

9 minutes ago, Shmauck said:

Another option could be cloud gaming. I have tried KSP1 on a Shadow cloud PC and that actually worked quite well. I may be looking into GeForce Now or Google Stadia until end of February.

Either way, I really like the Elgato solution as I am using OBS for capturing anyway which is now available in an Apple Silicon version. 

Stadia is dead.

Quote

Stadia will wind down January 18, 2023.

GeForce Now may be a good option however. I don't suspect there will be much in the way of very latency sensitive gameplay in KSP2 so this would likely be a very doable option.

[daninplainsight]

41 minutes ago, Shmauck said:

I may be looking into GeForce Now

One caveat with GeForce Now is that they only allow Steam Workshop mods, and you have to reinstall them each time you reopen a game. So unless there's a mod downloader/manager built in to KSP2, it's unlikely you'll be able to mod it through GeForce Now at all. (Though if you were planning on just playing stock anyway this won't really be a problem.)

[shdwlrd]

If can deal with the headaches and (current) shortcomings, there are Linux distros that can run bare metal on Apple silicon. From there, Steam's Proton can help.

[K^2]

33 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

From there, Steam's Proton can help.

Does x64 compatibility work in M1 Linux? IIRC, the solution to run legacy Intel code on M1 has been to use a combination of some hardware features and software support, and it's that latter part that I have concerns about with Linux. I have zero doubt that it's possible to make a version of Proton that runs on M1, either natively under OSX or by booting into Linux, but it sounds like some amount of work would be involved in getting the binary ready for ingestion by the M1 processors.

[shdwlrd]

2 hours ago, K^2 said:

Does x64 compatibility work in M1 Linux? IIRC, the solution to run legacy Intel code on M1 has been to use a combination of some hardware features and software support, and it's that latter part that I have concerns about with Linux.

Hard to say with the brief sanity check I did with Linux and Apple silicon. I would suspect the minimums are there for Linux to run on Apple silicon. But you’re right, nothing jumped out at me for x86/x64 translation for these distros. But who knows, someone could be working on one right now or one could be finished by the time KSP2 releases. This is Linux were talking about, almost anything is possible.

[K^2]

14 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

This is Linux were talking about, almost anything is possible.

Indeed. Technical feasibility is definitely there, so it just depends on somebody taking on the project, and there is no way of predicting what idea strikes someone fancy at what point in time.

I also know people have transcribed some existing Unity games for native Linux and OSX support. With a bit of extra work that can be used to make unofficial M1 OSX ports of Unity games. That would almost certainly violate KSP2's EULA, though, if it's anything like KSP's, so if a project like this will exist, unless there is some official green light from Intercept/PD, it'd have to exist away from this forum. Though, I'm still hoping that PD goes more lenient on EULA for KSP2 for the sake of mods and projects like this.

Personally, I'd be inclined to just wait for the full release, as making official OSX and Linux releases would be very sensible. Unity support for these platforms has improved, and I know Unity has been working with Apple to provide native M1 support. So fingers crossed, the full release will be available for these platforms.

[Shmauck]

Thank you all for your ideas. Those Linux solutions are far beyond where I am willing to go because I fear I may end up with a fully unusable computer afterwards 

I found another cloud gaming option called Shadow. They offer a full computer which can be remote-controlled with full access to Windows. That solution seems to take away the limitations which GeForce Now may have. I will look into both options and see how far I come with these. I will update this thread and report results. 

My last resort may still be to purchase a dedicated computer and for that setup I may be following the capture card route. 

[Shmauck]

Oh and by the way… MacOS does not seem to be completely off the list for KSP2 development so I trust I am only in need of a temporary solution. Granted, the wait time for KSP2 is already far higher than expected so any meaning of temporary may end up being several years… 

[magnemoe]

21 hours ago, Shmauck said:

Another option could be cloud gaming. I have tried KSP1 on a Shadow cloud PC and that actually worked quite well. I may be looking into GeForce Now or Google Stadia until end of February.

Either way, I really like the Elgato solution as I am using OBS for capturing anyway which is now available in an Apple Silicon version. 

Good idea, KSP should be an decent game for cloud as it not hyper sensitive for lag like a shooter, you probably want an controller or joystick however then flying. 

[magnemoe]

Now I blame Apple here, they have an tradition of changing CPU architecture. 
Starting with the Motorola 38k cpu who Amiga used, they then switched to IBM PowerPC, yes the 38k line was ending so they had to do something. 
But then jumping to x86 in 2006 and to their own M1 cpu in 2020 makes less sense, Yes jumping to x86 down the line makes sense as most did. Also has an feeling Apple see phones and mobile devices as their main focus.
But with pc, Xbox and PlayStation using an common cpu architecture for an decade now going away from it leaves gamers out dry. 

[K^2]

3 hours ago, magnemoe said:

 leaves gamers out dry. 

That's been Apple's modus operandi for well over two decades.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, K^2 said:

That's been Apple's modus operandi for well over two decades.

I would say a little over two decades. There were great Mac games in the 90’s. Anyone ever play Marathon?

[K^2]

28 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I would say a little over two decades. There were great Mac games in the 90’s. Anyone ever play Marathon?

Oh, dear Pthigrivi, it pains me to say this, for it made me feel so very old. I was specifically thinking of Marathon when I wrote the above, so I looked up the release date. It was '94. It's been closer to three decades than two.

[Pthigrivi]

Edited January 6, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[PopinFRESH]

9 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

I would say a little over two decades. There were great Mac games in the 90’s. Anyone ever play Marathon?

Yes I did... it was called Halo

[Pthigrivi]

5 hours ago, PopinFRESH said:

Yes I did... it was called Halo

The thing that was so innovative about Marathon and maybe more so Durandal and Infinity was they had really complex scifi stories and world building. This is obviously and commonplace now but at the time it was a big change over “just run around and shoot stuff”. Halo of course continued this, but Id say Halflife did a better job carrying through some of the subtler themes. Myst and Riven also had very weird and interesting stories. Its just a real headscratcher that Mac abandoned sincere support for this aspect of computing. 

[shdwlrd]

7 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Its just a real headscratcher that Mac abandoned sincere support for this aspect of computing.

Steve Jobs and his bizarre thoughts how his products should be used. 

[Pthigrivi]

3 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

Steve Jobs and his bizarre thoughts how his products should be used. 

I still think that guy took way too much credit for Jonathan Ive's genius. I mean I've owned Macs for most of my life and I've always found a way to play great games, but they sure don't make it easy.