Maneuver nodes are... really, really bad

[Talka]

Is there advanced maneuver node functionality I'm missing, or are maneuver nodes just... bad? Catastrophically, game-breakingly bad?

• It is near impossible to select the vector you want. I can only grab my desired vector if I zoom in reaaaaally close, which then makes it impossible to see if my orbit is intercepting my destination. 
• There is no ability to make micro-adjustments. You only adjust by pulling the vectors.
• There is no read-out of how much you've pulled each vector, so if you accidently pull the wrong vector (which happens often!) you basically need to delete your node and start over.
• It is very difficult to move your maneuver node along your orbit. Again, you need to zoom in reaaaaally close to select the ball in the center of node.
• There's no way to change the phase of your maneuver, it seems? You can't "skip" orbits, e.g., to sync your maneuver with the Mun.

Please, please, please... focus on the maneuver nodes for your first update. They are so bad.

EDIT: Summarizing some other issues from this thread so we have a single list of what to improve:

• You can't see your orbital line passing through other celestial bodies' sphere of influence, i.e., you can't see the path you'll be taking past your destination. You have to settle for a random encounter that likely has a highly eccentric orbit.
• You can’t create or edit maneuver modes while paused.
• There is no read-out of your expected result altitude (Ap/Pe, etc) from your maneuver. 
• It is difficult to time your maneuvers around Ap/Pe for circularization burns, because the maneuver nodes represent the start of a burn rather than the center of one.
• Bugs galore. Sometimes the maneuver tracker doesn't start once you've started your burned. Switching to the map view resets your maneuver tracker mid-burn, sending you rocketing to an unplanned destination. Time warping doesn't work reliably; oftentimes you simply blow past the point on the orbit you were warping to.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Talka

[Scarecrow71]

2 minutes ago, Talka said:

Is there advanced maneuver node functionality I'm missing, or are maneuver nodes just... bad? Catastrophically, game-breakingly bad?

• It is near impossible to select the vector you want. I can only grab my desired vector if I zoom in reaaaaally close, which then makes it impossible to see if my orbit is intersecting my destination. 
• There is no ability to make micro-adjustments. You only adjust by pulling the vectors.
• There is no read-out of how much you've pulled each vector, so if you accidently pull the wrong vector (which happens often!) you basically need to delete your node and start over.
• It is very difficult to move your maneuver node along your orbit. Again, you need to zoom in reaaaally close to select the ball in the center of node.
• There's no way to change the phase of your maneuver, it seems?

Please, please, please... focus on the maneuver nodes for your first update. They are so bad.

What I dislike is being unable to see the changed Ap/Pe while moving the vectors.  You have to change a vector, then deselect the node, then hover over your new Ap/Pe in order to see what the story is.

[Warzouz]

I've noticed you can't create or edit a node while paused, which remove the point of the pause...

[Jubilant Bulb]

I’m surprised by how bad these are, honestly. I like a lot of the changes, but not being able to see my PE/AP while trying to circularize???  I feel I must be missing something. 

[IbanLoL]

I was about to create a post about the manoeuver nodes, but I'll +1 on here.

They are pretty bad. The old system we had in ksp1 towards the end was pretty good, you could see where you were going and you could adjust the manoeuver with the added UI buttons in all directions without actually looking at the node itself, but being focused on the body you were going to intersect for example. This was a good solution to make the whole transfer / trajectory planning a bit easier. 

But now we're back to:

- Focus on the node -> zoom in -> adjust a bit -> turn the camera, it looks okay ish, zoom out -> aaargh not it's way off -> try to adjust the manoeuver again but from zoomed out view it's a vectorial mess so zoom in again -> adjust, zoom out again -> looks like we have intersect, focus on the body -> try to adjust the manoeuver from afar but it doesn't work -> focus on the node again, etc etc...

What a hassle ! The overall view is generally very busy around the node, or the vessel, AND we only have a few things flying around at the moment... I can't imagine what it would be like when we'll have colonies, space stations, many ships and so on...

Going back to the manoeuver vectors directly on the UI (like in ksp1) could be a good solution. Also maybe having a windowed view of the targetted body, on top - even if it's a simulated like computer view -  with the trajectories / AP/PE points values so you don't have to permanently adjust focus and camera could be great as well.

[机械主教71号]

Can't agree more. It's totally a disaster.

What's more, the node can't automatically mark the AP/PE, AN/DN, etc. 

We want the KSP1 type advanced maneuver node.

Edited March 15, 2023 by 机械主教71号

[LameLefty]

18 hours ago, Talka said:

Is there advanced maneuver node functionality I'm missing, or are maneuver nodes just... bad? Catastrophically, game-breakingly bad?

• It is near impossible to select the vector you want. I can only grab my desired vector if I zoom in reaaaaally close, which then makes it impossible to see if my orbit is intersecting my destination. 
• There is no ability to make micro-adjustments. You only adjust by pulling the vectors.
• There is no read-out of how much you've pulled each vector, so if you accidently pull the wrong vector (which happens often!) you basically need to delete your node and start over.
• It is very difficult to move your maneuver node along your orbit. Again, you need to zoom in reaaaally close to select the ball in the center of node.
• There's no way to change the phase of your maneuver, it seems?

Please, please, please... focus on the maneuver nodes for your first update. They are so bad.

 

Quoted for truth. We need tools at least analogous to what we have with  late-stage KSP with which to plan and execute trajectory adjustments.

Edited February 25, 2023 by LameLefty

[fjw]

give us:
- numbers to see the current parameters of the node (also the position in the current flight path *) )
- buttons to fine adjust the values. The dragging of arrows is such a bad idea. It's only good for really rough tinkering.

Dragging generally is not good usability. I also hate that the only way to move stuff in the staging bar is by dragging. And cursor dosn't even change.
The usability in KSP2 is worse than in KSP1 and that says something. If you want newbies to approach ksp you need a good usability. UX is the most important part. Some nice tutorial videos are not enough!!


* because dragging the node like mentioned in the tutorial dosn't work.

[snow830917]

Another problem is that when performing node maneuver, you can't see how much deltaV has changed. There is only one progress bar, which is very inconvenient when precision maneuver is required.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

The lines are too fat, too.  Part of the problem with not being able to grab the node you want is that it's hidden behind the fat line of a different node. 

They need to be skinnier. 

The function I want is to be able to click on the PE and AP numbers for my current and prospective orbits, drag the pop up somewhere out of the way so I can see what I'm doing (but have it leave a drag line to its orbit so I can glance and see which is which).  I want to be able EASILY grab the whole node and move it around to see if I can get a better Intercept as well as be able to adjust the nodes in some better way than having to blindly click and hope you grabbed the correct arrow. 

I yelled at the screen last night before quitting the game.  Wasn't pretty. 

[esorth]

Something I've noticed is that the point where you place a node now seems to represent the start of a burn, rather than the center of one.  I'm guessing this goes along with the devs' stated goals about reworking nodes to handle long sustained burns, but it also makes things more difficult for simple planning.  I can't find where to place a node just to circularize an orbit now that you can't just place it at the relevant Ap/Pe.  Of course, really doesn't help that the inability to see result altitudes makes it impossible to play with the position to try to find the right spot by moving the node around.

[fjw]

Another thing I want to add.

I am just doing a rendevouz around mun. It seems not possible to skip orbits. How can I set my maneuver to come after for example three orbits? IMHO, this is really necessary and was possible in ksp1.

(but i really love the general aestethics about the UI. The colors, the fonts. It's awesome. But the UX is still not good, yet.)

[naterltw175]

+1.  I’m very optimistic about the game just out of sheer desire to have a KSP2 as advertised one day, and I’d love to jump on and give feedback to get it to where it needs to be. My system handles the game fine, and I like a lot of the changes.  The maneuver nodes really limits what someone can do in this current version of the game.  After 12 hrs of play, I’m almost ready to hang it up until the next patch.  The maneuver nodes and multiple command pods/probes doesn’t work when detached from each other — seen as debris; unless I’m missing something, making a lander is impossible, it all has to be the same ship.  Those two flaws make it really hard to enjoy the game.

[Basto]

Yeah maneuver nodes are horribly broken... I cannot fathom how it was released in this state... trying to plan a maneuver to anything other than Mun and Minmus is nearly impossible...  I gave up trying to get my interplanetary craft to Jool last night (after dealing with hours of weird SAS bugs and explosions on the launch pad).  I just cannot understand how this was not a bigger priority before release.

[simonh]

If you right click the Apoapsis or Periapsis point, it will pin the time-to and altitude indicators for you.  I haven’t found out how to un-pin them though. Oh well, step by step. You can force it by switching to the tracking station and back again.

Edited February 25, 2023 by simonh

[MechBFP]

11 minutes ago, simonh said:

If you right click the Apoapsis or Periapsis point, it will pin the time-to and altitude indicators for you.  I haven’t found out how to un-pin them though. Oh well, step by step.

But as soon as you try to adjust the node, the pin goes away. It is impossible to both see the AP and/or PE and adjust a node at the same time.

[Duhya]

Agreed on all above, and they really make it hard to play. I'll add one not mentioned:

-We can see entry and exit from SOI, but not the trajectory or apsis. 

This makes even going to the moons difficult to do precisely. I really think all the maneuver node stuff should be top priority beside performance.

[EmanonP]

On top of that, seems you can't pin your craft altitude and speed in orbit either.   You can hover over it, but it won't pin.  
Maneuvers are horrible in this build.        Can't focus on the target and see the intercept coming into play.     Seems it's pure guess work and luck to get a decent intercept.
Hell, even Apollo had better computing abilites....

 

[Moofyfish]

The Manoeuvre nodes seem so bad in comparison to KSP1 i just switched back to KSP1 and they are just so much easier to grab the prograde etc - i feel like i am trying to grab the desired adjust handle with boxing gloves on. Its so frustrating - deleting a node  in KSP2 is also problematic for me too .

This is a not  'shock of the new' scenario as i am getting used to some of the differences in KSP2 but this is a real sticky point that i hope the devs and updates fix real quick. Why is everything on the node so crunched up compared to ksp1's node manoeuvre tool which is 'finer' there is space around the things to grab.

Back to KSP1 for me for a while until the game is progressed - big fan of the game and i am happy to support the best game i have ever played  - I know you will fix it Devs 

Moofyfish

[Scarecrow71]

Am I wrong, or wasn't MJ supposed to be stock in KSP2?  That would certainly help in creating and executing nodes in EA.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[Missingno200]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Am I wrong, or wasn't MJ supposed to be stock in KSP2?  That would certainly help in creating and executing nodes in EA.

I'm pretty sure they explicitly said they weren't going to add MJ in order to avoid overly simplifying every mission. I can't recall their exact words but it was something along the lines of "we don't want the game to play itself."

[Znander]

Along with everything listed, I can hardly get them to work at all. If I create a node in the map mode and return to my ship view, half the time my node has completely changed for some reason. I've been having to create as well as execute my nodes through the map or it just wont work.

[4d4Garrison]

The maneuver node system is abysmal. Trying to get a simple Hohman transfer to even Duna or Eve is near impossible. Weird orbital changes during time warp make an intercept disappear as your orbit randomly shifts or decays for some reason. Time warping to some point might actually warp you all the way around an orbit again. 

The colors on orbits are all blue so its hard to tell what is an encounter, pre encounter, and post encounter orbit. 

I have close to 4k hrs in KSP1 and I feel a struggle to do basic tasks. 

perhaps what is most baffling to me in terms of the maneuver node system, VAB, and other aspects of the game is that they revamped things that worked and worked very well by the current state of KSP1. and instead of maybe adding some quality of life mods from KSP1 into stock they changed to these clunky weird systems. 

If they had just kept the KSP1 maneuver and VAB system I think people would have much fewer issues with this early access. Why "fix" something that is not only not broken but fix it to a state that makes the game almost unusable even for veteran players? 

the nodes need to be easier to grab and adjust

orbital paths need to be more like how they used to be. The colors. behavior. and the big flashing blue target especially needs to change. That flashing blue entry and exit thing is useless and makes it difficult to tell what is going on. 

the UI and text in the game needs to scale better with different resolutions and graphics settings

physics in time warp does weird things. Oh and of course the crazy PID's and Noodle behavior on craft makes getting encounters exceedingly difficult. 

 

[Sea_Kerman]

They reset whenever you switch to map view

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Sea_Kerman

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I don't know if you caught Scott Manley's pre-launch ESA event video - but at one point he's pulling the nodes and it looks identical to the KSP node interface.  Skinny lines and all. 

On my phone so I can't time link to his video. 

Looks like the fat line thing was added just before launch. 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli