Workspaces

[Vl3d]

Spoiler

"When you save your work in the VAB, you don’t just save one craft file anymore. Instead, you save a workspace that may comprise several subassemblies. Since KSP2 allows players to work on multiple assemblies simultaneously, you may want to think of a workspace save as a snapshot of everything that’s being worked on for a given engineering project. There are a few new concepts that come along with this change:

• You now have a Vehicle Name and a separate Workspace Filename. Your vehicle name is what you’ll see in the Tracking Station when your vehicle is in flight - for example, “Kerpollo 11”. Your Workspace Filename, on the other hand, should change every time you want to create a unique save of your construction progress — so ”Kerpollo 11A,“ ”Kerpollo 11B,“ etc. would make good workspace filenames.
• You control which subassembly in a workspace will go to the launchpad when you select the Launch button. The Launch Assembly tool, which lives on the VAB toolbar at the bottom of the screen, can be used to designate which subassembly in the workspace is your flight-ready vehicle.
• The Part Anchor tool at the bottom of the screen controls which part within a subassembly is its root part – eg. the part of the subassembly that will be its main point of manipulation/attachment. To change which part of a subassembly is its Anchor, select this tool and then click on the part of the vehicle you wish to set as the root part."

"You build all the stages separately and stack them as desired for launch."

"The workspace system is a bit of a mess in general right now. Autosaves generate a new workspace every time, and it's very easy to accidentally delete a workspace you actually want while clearing out the clutter. There's no "Save" vs "Save As" so you have an opportunity to accidentally overwrite another workspace every time you safety-save. There isn't a way to merge individual vessels to a new workspace; you can only merge whole workspaces."

Simple directory view with text, folders, and filenames = GOOD | Giant icon screen captures of the VAB work in process, with confusing cross references to craft/workspace and unwanted new versions being auto-added to the mess = BAD"

"The Workspace and Vehicle save interaction is a little confusing.  When I do a save, I’m saving a specific vessel/craft/assembly.  Even when I’m saving a new assembly name, the interface asks if I’m sure I want to override a craft with this same name.  What am I overwriting?"

• "Autosaves clutter the workspace ui
  First of all, everytime an autosave is created, it will be saved as a new workspace, which gets very annoying.
  Maybe autosaves could be shown in a dropdown menu to declutter the ui.
• Saving system inconsistent
  When saving a vehicle name and a workspace name, you see all your vehicles, but not the workspaces. And if you save another vehicle in the same workspace, the previous vehicle will be overridden.
  Also you can't load those vehicles shown in the saving ui, but only the workspaces. I don't know, if this is intended or a bug, but it feels very inconsistent.
  Edit: Clarification:
     While saving, you see vehicles listed by their vehicle name. For all workspaces, but only one from each.
     While loading, you see only workspaces with their respective names.
• Loading: Workspace takes up a lot of space
  I'm not 100% sure how i will use the workspace system, but for now i'm likely to save many crafts in seperate workspace files.  Because of this it would be nice, if they get much more compact.
  The idea of an image from the workspace is nice, but i think it would be fine, if it's smaller. Also there is a lot of dead space.
  
  There are many playstyles. Maybe some have only a few workspaces, which works for them more like folders, collecting all vehicles of the same type.
  Other ones might use them only for big projects and want to save normal vehicles in separate files. The system should support both playstyles.
• Subassemblies
  I know the workspace concept is a replacement for subassemblies and you can merge two workspaces together.
  But is there a way to copy only one vessel from one assembly to another? Let's say i have a workspace with all my launch vehicles and a workspace with all my probes.
  How do i copy a probe to the launch vehicle workspace, to launch it into space?"

First of all, I've added all the information and feedback I could find on the subject in the spoiler box above.

Also images of Save and Load windows:

Spoiler

It's important to have this discussion now because any changes to the system will impact backwards compatibility of crafts.

So, from what I understand, the system is kind of unintuitive at the moment. The Workspaces are just saves (snapshots) of a single craft project. They are not collections of multiple stand-alone vessels. Is this correct? If so, I think it's name should be Craft Workspace Snapshot.

Also.. why do it like that and then show workspaces filled with stand-alone vessels? It makes no sense.

In my mind it would be much better if:

• In the Save / Load windows, replace the term "Vehicle" with "Project" (because some people build entire families / fleets of boosters as assemblies and these are not vehicles)
• Also, replace the term "Workspace file" with "Project workspace snapshot"
• In the Load window, replace "Load vehicle" with "Load project" AND put all "Project workspace snapshots" in a drop-down list specific for each Project save.

This way we can have Projects be vehicles and then we can merge / import that vehicle Project Workspace Snapshot into another Project which is a fleet of vehicles (but we should be able to name these vehicles individually). 
Also, as stated above, it would be incredibly useful to be able to label (sub)assemblies and have them be a single group of parts which can be stacked and destacked. More details below:

• A Project should be a collection of vessels and assemblies (like a folder which holds crafts and (sub)assemblies).
• We should be able to label vessels and (sub)assemblies (groups of parts) inside the Project. 
• Labeled craft / (sub)assemblies (groups of parts) should also save their own action groups and staging sequences.
• The assemblies should stay grouped together even if stacked on top of each other, so it's easy to destack them (stage, lander, return pod etc.). Working on parts of an assembly would require selecting that group.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[The Aziz]

13 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

from what I understand, the system is kind of unintuitive at the moment. The Workspaces are just saves (snapshots) of a single craft project. They are not collections of multiple stand-alone vessels. Is this correct? If so, I think it's name should be Craft Workspace Snapshot.

Uhh, no? I have 3 different rockets within the same workspace. And workspaces for me are for size-purpose. For example I have a 1.25m Kerbal workspace which is just what the name suggests, and in it a rocket that sends that 1.25m capsule into orbit, another one that sends me to the moons, recently built 3rd one for Duna.

I have another one that contains all parts of my space station, first built together then separated for in-orbit construction, so a lifter is included in the project, I can just switch it around between station segments.

Another workspace of mine is for planes. All designs are different, but I know when I want to work on aircraft I open that one.

You can use the workspaces however you want.

[Vl3d]

12 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I have 3 different rockets within the same workspace. And workspaces for me are for size-purpose. For example I have a 1.25m Kerbal workspace which is just what the name suggests, and in it a rocket that sends that 1.25m capsule into orbit, another one that sends me to the moons, recently built 3rd one for Duna.

I have another one that contains all parts of my space station, first built together then separated for in-orbit construction, so a lifter is included in the project, I can just switch it around between station segments.

Another workspace of mine is for planes. All designs are different, but I know when I want to work on aircraft I open that one.

You can use the workspaces however you want.

Please read the OP again I have finished the text. Maybe I just don't understand how workspaces.. work. It's very confusing. Can you share some images?

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[J.Random]

13 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Uhh, no? I have 3 different rockets within the same workspace.

Do they all have different names inside the same workspace? Pretty sure that there's just one craft name per workspace.

[Uuky]

I might be wrong but Workspaces are the save file.

 

Inside it you can have different crafts. 

You choose the craft to launch using the pale blue "plane Icon" (move the mouse over the rocket) . The selected craft has the green icon and will be on the pad/runway if you click "launch".

So in fact, instead of having one file per rocket/craft/whatever, you can store an entire series of rockets/planes into a single file.

That's brilliant imho.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Uuky

[Vl3d]

14 minutes ago, Uuky said:

I might be wrong but Workspaces are the save file.

Inside it you can have different crafts. 

You choose the craft to launch using the pale blue "plane Icon" (move the mouse over the rocket) . The selected craft has the green icon and will be on the pad/runway if you click "launch".

So in fact, instead of having one file per rocket/craft/whatever, you can store an entire series of rockets/planes into a single file.

That's brilliant imho.

It doesn't work like that. When you save, you save a single craft. That's why you always overwrite the craft. The Workspace is just a snapshot of that craft project, like a craft and subassemblies state.

The fact that you're forcing the workspace to have multiple craft means that you cannot name / label each one of them and you will overwrite your main craft when you save. Very dangerous if you don't modify the workspace name (you lose everything that got changed in that project snapshot).

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

I think we really need this, it's a very important change and easy to implement:

• In the Save / Load windows, replace the term "Vehicle" with "Project" (because some people build entire families / fleets of boosters as assemblies and these are not vehicles)
• Also, replace the term "Workspace file" with "Project workspace snapshot"
• In the Load window, replace "Load vehicle" with "Load project" AND put all "Project workspace snapshots" in a drop-down list specific for each Project save.

This way we can have Projects be vehicles and then we can merge / import that vehicle Project Workspace Snapshot into another Project which is a fleet of vehicles (but we should be able to name these vehicles individually).  Also, as stated above, it would be incredibly useful to be able to label (sub)assemblies and have them be a single group of parts which can be stacked and destacked.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Mutex]

3 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

• In the Save / Load windows, replace the term "Vehicle" with "Project" (because some people build entire families / fleets of boosters as assemblies and these are not vehicles)

I think that would be more confusing, it's not very clear what "project" refers to. Even if "vehicle" isn't necessarily a 100% accurate description of all assemblies, it is at least obvious what they're referring to.

[Vl3d]

3 minutes ago, Mutex said:

I think that would be more confusing, it's not very clear what "project" refers to. Even if "vehicle" isn't necessarily a 100% accurate description of all assemblies, it is at least obvious what they're referring to.

A fleet / booster family is not a vehicle. It's a project.

Also, individual vehicles are not just assemblies. They should have names.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Uhh, no? I have 3 different rockets within the same workspace. And workspaces for me are for size-purpose. For example I have a 1.25m Kerbal workspace which is just what the name suggests, and in it a rocket that sends that 1.25m capsule into orbit, another one that sends me to the moons, recently built 3rd one for Duna.

I have another one that contains all parts of my space station, first built together then separated for in-orbit construction, so a lifter is included in the project, I can just switch it around between station segments.

Another workspace of mine is for planes. All designs are different, but I know when I want to work on aircraft I open that one.

You can use the workspaces however you want.

What you call "workspaces" are actually Projects (named vehicles by the devs unfortunately). The real workspaces in the Save/Load windows are Project Workspace Snapshots.
It's a bad naming problem.

[The Aziz]

What

Why do you decide how something's called if it's already been called by the people who made it?

"Project workspace snapshot" oh yeah that's totally not confusing at all 

[Vl3d]

5 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Why do you decide how something's called if it's already been called by the people who made it?

"Project workspace snapshot" oh yeah that's totally not confusing at all 

Because the terms they used are extremely confusing. Just look at how you yourself confuse the concepts and the diverse interpretations.

"Project" and "Project workspace snapshot" have a very clear meaning each - much closer to what the devs intended.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[regex]

I don't know, I use the workspaces like some of the pre-release videos seemed to: they're filled with different vehicles. If that's not how they're supposed to be used then all I have to say is that the save/load/merge interface is extremely inefficient for the purposes of finding and sorting single craft, although do note that you can sort by name and mass which would seem to indicate these are single craft files...

[Uuky]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

It doesn't work like that.

Well, I must be under some major  hallucinogen then.

[Nuke]

i really dont get the point, it just makes saving more complicated. 

[MarcAbaddon]

I thought I got the idea, but it seems it might have been the other way around than it actually works.

I think there are multiple sources of confusion here:

1. You can have multiple vessels/rockets in the editor next to each other. 
2. When you save it you save it as a workspace, and the workspace is grouped under a specific vehicle name.

So in the save/load screen for each Vehicle you can have multiple workspaces, but each of those workspaces can contain multiple physical vessels that are loaded in the editor at the same time. Is this basically correct?

If so, that does seem confusing. 

[Vl3d]

24 minutes ago, MarcAbaddon said:

So in the save/load screen for each Vehicle you can have multiple workspaces, but each of those workspaces can contain multiple physical vessels that are loaded in the editor at the same time. Is this basically correct?

What they call "vehicles" are actually Projects (some of you think of them as workspaces / craft families / fleets).
And what they call "workspaces" are actually Project Snapshots (saves of the workspace structure at that time).

Projects (vehicles) have multiple Project Snapshot (workspaces) saves.

If you understand this it all makes sense and you also get what has to be improved.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Stoup]

It's a little confusing for me, because when you go to save the game manually with the save button, it asks for a workspace name and a vehicle name.

The vehicle name, is kind of awkward. If you change the launch assembly from one craft in a workspace to another craft in a workspace... the vehicle name doesn't change. So, why is the vehicle name saved to the workspace file when you'd theoretically have multiple "vehicles" in a single workspace? I'd think it would be intuitive that vehicle names might be per assembly.

I guess if you're using a single workspace for multiple parts of a single vehicles being detached and re-added it makes sense, but now I feel like the purpose of workspaces is a little unclear: Are they meant for having multiple separate launch vehicles within a single "project" grouping? Or are they meant for the different assemblies of a single workspace vehicle? I feel like it's not clear which condition the game wants to satisfy best.

[Mutex]

Just now, Vl3d said:

What they call "vehicles" are actually Projects.

I don't think anyone understands what you mean by "projects", including me. You're not referring to craft? Something else?

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, Mutex said:

I don't think anyone understands what you mean by "projects", including me. You're not referring to craft? Something else?

A project is a group of (one or more) vessels and (sub)assemblies. It can be 1 vessel or a fleet or a family of vessels.

5 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

What they call "vehicles" are actually Projects (some of you think of them as workspaces / craft families / fleets).
And what they call "workspaces" are actually Project Snapshots (saves of the workspace structure at that time).

Projects (vehicles) have multiple Project Snapshot (workspaces) saves.

If you understand this it all makes sense and you also get what has to be improved.

[MarcAbaddon]

Well, I guess one practical example could be:

Vehicle (really project as Vl3d says): Apollo Project

Workspace: one per Apollo flight (since there are some differences in payload/equipment whatever).

 

The thing is that there are really multiple ways you could use, you could also have a vehicle ("launcher") with each workspace being a different launcher rocket with a different capacity of mass to LKO.

 

Or your vehicle/project could be a single vehicle and the workspaces just being iterations of your design. Like simple versioning.

 

The possible different applications probably make it hard to decide on a good name.

[Mutex]

Just now, Vl3d said:

A project is a group of (one or more) vessels and (sub)assemblies. It can be 1 vessel or a fleet or a family of vessels.

Isn't that the workspace?

[angelatthetomb]

I have a Master's degree in Workspace Operating Mode Bewilderment Attenuation Technology, and I have no idea what workspaces are for or how to use them.

Edited March 1, 2023 by angelatthetomb

[Stoup]

So what he's suggesting is basically renaming workspaces to projects, and using the old "workspace"  name box to be for versioning of that workspace, and the old "vehicle" name box to be what's currently the "workspace". I think :D. I don't know if that would be less convoluted tbh but I do agree the current system makes less sense the more ya look at it.

And having a more robust system to reference singular assemblies in a workspace would be really nice.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Stoup

[Vl3d]

7 minutes ago, Mutex said:

Isn't that the workspace?

No! In the game that is called the "vehicle". The "workspace" is just a snapshot (a save) of your current work on the Vehicle (Project). It's very bad naming.

5 minutes ago, Stoup said:

So what he's suggesting is basically renaming workspaces to projects, and using the old "workspace"  name box to be for versioning of that workspace, and the old "vehicle" name box to be what's currently the "workspace". I don't know if that would be less convoluted tbh but I do agree the current system makes less sense the more ya look at it

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

• In the Save / Load windows, replace the term "Vehicle" with "Project" (because some people build entire families / fleets of boosters as assemblies and these are not vehicles)
• Also, replace the term "Workspace file" with "Project workspace snapshot"

The term "workspace" is not the root for the saves. Workspaces are the saves (iterations)! The root under which the saves live is the "vehicle". The in-game "vehicle" term refers to the whole project you're working on. And the term "workspace" refers to the snapshot save of your work progress.

Very confusing choice of concept names!

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d