Workspaces

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

They are not collections of multiple stand-alone vessels

They can be? That's just not their main function but it can be if you find the use for it.

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

I think it's name should be Craft Workspace Snapshot.

That name serves no purpose that just saying "workspace" doesn't.

That being said, vehicle names should be applied per subassembly and not through the VAB toolbar, seeing as the purpose of a workspace is to permit working on multiple vehicles.

[Vl3d]

5 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That being said, vehicle names should be applied per subassembly and not through the VAB toolbar, seeing as the purpose of a workspace is to permit working on multiple vehicles.

Exactly, vehicles names should be assembly labels. And the actual think you load should be a Project (which can have multiple saves called Workspace Snapshots).

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That name serves no purpose that just saying "workspace" doesn't.

The name "Project workspace snapshots" is much more descriptive and accurate than just "workspace". Most people confuse "workspace" with "project".. but the "workspace" is just a save of the current state of a project.
And certainly "Project" is a better name than "Vehicle" because it includes the idea of fleets of vessels and also groups of other assemblies.

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

"Project workspace* snapshot" is convoluted and 2/3rds of the words here are redundant.

*You literally call them workspaces as well, and do so in the name you suggest to replace the name "workspace".

And, of course, renaming "vehicle name" to "project name" is redundant because that's a job that's taken by "workspace", and as I said of course, vehicle names should be handled by the individual vehicles in a workspace and not the workspace itself, so there need only be one title to fill in when saving a workspace.

[Vl3d]

22 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And, of course, renaming "vehicle name" to "project name" is redundant because that's a job that's taken by "workspace", and as I said of course, vehicle names should be handled by the individual vehicles in a workspace and not the workspace itself, so there need only be one title to fill in when saving a workspace.

As you play with it more, you will realize that the project (what devs call vehicle) holds multiple "workspace snapshots" (what devs call workspaces). It's not the other way around: the workspace is not the root for the vehicles (projects). When you make a save you change the name of the "workspace snapshot", not of the "project" (what devs call vehicle).

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[regex]

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

It's not the other way around: the workspace is not the root for the vessels.

Why would we have a workspace name and a vehicle name? I'm looking at the stock vessels in the screenshot above and they just have the same name twice (and they reverse the use of "stock" in the fields seemingly randomly?)

Seems like a really convoluted way to save single vehicles...

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

As you play with it more, you will realize that the project (what devs call vehicle) holds multiple "workspace snapshots" (what devs call workspaces).

The vehicle holds multiple workspaces...?

6 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It's not the other way around: the workspace is not the root for the vessels.

Well, seeing as for the past 15-20 hours of gameplay I've had, my workspaces have held vehicles inside as opposed to "vehicles with workspaces inside" (if that makes any sense), I can say that's incorrect.

[Vl3d]

13 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Well, seeing as for the past 15-20 hours of gameplay I've had, my workspaces have held vehicles inside as opposed to "vehicles with workspaces inside" (if that makes any sense), I can say that's incorrect.

To save your work you always keep the project name the same and change the name of the workspace snapshot (that's your save file for the current workspace structure). If you try to save a different project (what devs call vehicle) inside the same workspace snapshot, it's not merged - it's overwritten - and you lose all other vehicles you had inside the Project.

You cannot work on a new project / vessel and then save it inside a previous workspace. I can't make it any clearer. I think a lot of players don't understand this. You have to create workspace snapshots for each project and then merge these together. This is why the current naming ("vehicle" instead of "project" and "workspace file" instead of "project workspace snapshot") is so damaging.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

...currently "vehicles" are like the project folders and "workspaces" are the save files inside the project folders. But this is very confusing because players constantly see "vehicles" INSIDE "workspaces". It's a very bad naming choice.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Bej Kerman]

6 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

To save your work you always keep the project name the same and change the name of the workspace snapshot (that's your save file for the current workspace structure). If you try to save a different project (what devs call vehicle) inside the same workspace snapshot, it's not merged - it's overwritten - and you lose all other vehicles you had inside the Project.

This is hardly making sense. It's worked exactly as I've expected in my experience; you save your workspace and change its name, it is saved separately unless you select another workspace to overwrite. If your workspace has the same name as another, trying to save it brings you to a dialog asking you if you want to overwrite the other one. The names of vehicles and the contents of the workspaces are utterly irrelevant.

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

...currently "vehicles" are the project folders and "workspaces" are the save files inside the project folders. But this is very confusing because players constantly see "vehicles" INSIDE "workspaces". It's a very bad naming choice.

I've not yet seen it behave in the way you're explaining.

[Vl3d]

12 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The names of vehicles and the contents of the workspaces are utterly irrelevant.

In the VAB it literally says "Save / Load vehicle", not "Save / Load workspace". And although it saves and loads workspace snapshots, these can have multiple vehicles inside them. You create a new vehicle and try to save it inside a previous workspace and guess what - you overwrite that previous vehicle. It makes no sense.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

You create a new vehicle and try to save it inside a previous workspace and guess what - you overwrite that previous vehicle. It makes no sense.

You had a new workspace and gave it the same name as another, so it was overwritten. That makes complete sense to me, it's how files have generally worked since computers became a widespread thing.

[Uuky]

Basically the workspace is a place where the player "works" to create its vehicule. 

So there is the vehicule and the pile of junks (parts not used) all around. And this pile of junk is not always just parts left on the side. They can be used for others vehicules based on the same workspace. Vehicules that can be name the same or differently. 

Just place yourself in the position of a developper. Player can create rockets, landers, planes, probes, things that shouldn't exists etc... But basically they are vehicules. and they are created into a virtual space. So workspace and vehicules are good labelling. 

 

[Mutex]

Yes, it seems Vl3d expected saving a workspace with the same name as an existing workspace would somehow merge the workspaces together.

I've checked the folder structure, there are no project folders. It's a flat hierarchy with just the workspace files.

A workspace contains multiple vehicles. I'm not sure what the "vehicle name" field does when you save though.

[Uuky]

I guess it will take a lot more sense later. Especially when multiplayer will be live.

[Vl3d]

Good news!

[The Aziz]

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

It doesn't work like that. When you save, you save a single craft.

No, you're saving current state of the workspace.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

The fact that you're forcing the workspace to have multiple craft means that you cannot name / label each one of them and you will overwrite your main craft when you save.

First, I'm not forcing because the game allows me to do it, second, saving the current state, be it with one vessel or ten, under the same workspace name, doesn't ruin anything.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

but we should be able to name these vehicles individually

I do agree on that.

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Also, individual vehicles are not just assemblies. They should have names.

But we're landing in that gray area of what's subassembly in a workspace, and what's a vessel. The game lets us put whatever we want in the VAB.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

What they call "vehicles" are actually Projects (some of you think of them as workspaces / craft families / fleets).
And what they call "workspaces" are actually Project Snapshots (saves of the workspace structure at that time).

No, what they call vehicles is what spawns on the launchpad/runway. The piece with green flag. The workspaces are workspaces. The only trouble is, we can't load different vehicles from KSC->launch menu, only the last saved and active one. That requires an improvement. You name changing isn't going to help anyone.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

A project is a group of (one or more) vessels and (sub)assemblies. It can be 1 vessel or a fleet or a family of vessels.

Yeah you just described a workspace. A group of vessels and subassemblies in one place.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Workspaces are the saves (iterations)! The root under which the saves live is the "vehicle". The in-game "vehicle" term refers to the whole project you're working on. And the term "workspace" refers to the snapshot save of your work progress.

You just made it more confusing than it ever was. Launch something from KSC without visiting the VAB. What the game asks for? A vehicle. One, that single one you marked active when you saved the workspace. Unfortunately, only that one from the whole workspace, but I already said it above. By your description, a vehicle loaded on the launchpad would be everything you have.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

To save your work you always keep the project name the same and change the name of the workspace snapshot (that's your save file for the current workspace structure).

To avoid confusion, because you're already talking in your own language: "To save your work you always keep the vehicle name the same and change the name of the workspace"
That's what you were trying to say? Because I do the opposite and had no problems, the workspace with what I need loads every time and any changes to the vehicle, or the one next to it, saved under chosen workspace name, are still there. Workspace is what you load and save in VAB, same as craft name file in KSP1. Building something new and overwriting the old one is going to result with the loss of the old craft. Or workspace. Not a problem really if you realize what's what.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You cannot work on a new project / vessel and then save it inside a previous workspace.

Yep, same as working on new craft and saving it under the same name as old craft in the previous game. Or anything really, be it image file or document or a video.
Workspace is what you're saving, Vehicle is what you're launching.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You have to create workspace snapshots for each project and then merge these together.

You're adding yourself more work really. It's as easy as it is, which I've been explaining right there for the last 10 minutes or so as I've been typing this. Create multiple vessels under one workspace. No merging, no careful overwriting because currently the only thing that matters for safe saving is workspace name... Piece of cake.

59 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

In the VAB it literally says "Save / Load vehicle", not "Save / Load workspace".

And it's the second and last thing that needs changing. You're not loading vehicles in VAB, but workspaces. But then there's a lot of UI problems that require fixing so let's not lose hope. But don't come up with ridiculous names that help nobody.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You create a new vehicle and try to save it inside a previous workspace and guess what - you overwrite that previous vehicle. It makes no sense.

That's how saving works. If you create a new vehicle that may be similar in some way to others you've already saved, then you can simply open that workspace or load->merge. Because why would you deliberately overwrite something unless you wanted it gone?

 

[Bej Kerman]

8 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

It doesn't work like that. When you save, you save a single craft.

No, you're saving current state of the workspace.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

The fact that you're forcing the workspace to have multiple craft means that you cannot name / label each one of them and you will overwrite your main craft when you save.

First, I'm not forcing because the game allows me to do it, second, saving the current state, be it with one vessel or ten, under the same workspace name, doesn't ruin anything.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

but we should be able to name these vehicles individually

I do agree on that.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Also, individual vehicles are not just assemblies. They should have names.

But we're landing in that gray area of what's subassembly in a workspace, and what's a vessel. The game lets us put whatever we want in the VAB.

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

What they call "vehicles" are actually Projects (some of you think of them as workspaces / craft families / fleets).
And what they call "workspaces" are actually Project Snapshots (saves of the workspace structure at that time).

No, what they call vehicles is what spawns on the launchpad/runway. The piece with green flag. The workspaces are workspaces. The only trouble is, we can't load different vehicles from KSC->launch menu, only the last saved and active one. That requires an improvement. You name changing isn't going to help anyone.

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

A project is a group of (one or more) vessels and (sub)assemblies. It can be 1 vessel or a fleet or a family of vessels.

Yeah you just described a workspace. A group of vessels and subassemblies in one place.

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Workspaces are the saves (iterations)! The root under which the saves live is the "vehicle". The in-game "vehicle" term refers to the whole project you're working on. And the term "workspace" refers to the snapshot save of your work progress.

You just made it more confusing than it ever was. Launch something from KSC without visiting the VAB. What the game asks for? A vehicle. One, that single one you marked active when you saved the workspace. Unfortunately, only that one from the whole workspace, but I already said it above. By your description, a vehicle loaded on the launchpad would be everything you have.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

To save your work you always keep the project name the same and change the name of the workspace snapshot (that's your save file for the current workspace structure).

To avoid confusion, because you're already talking in your own language: "To save your work you always keep the vehicle name the same and change the name of the workspace"
That's what you were trying to say? Because I do the opposite and had no problems, the workspace with what I need loads every time and any changes to the vehicle, or the one next to it, saved under chosen workspace name, are still there. Workspace is what you load and save in VAB, same as craft name file in KSP1. Building something new and overwriting the old one is going to result with the loss of the old craft. Or workspace. Not a problem really if you realize what's what.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You cannot work on a new project / vessel and then save it inside a previous workspace.

Yep, same as working on new craft and saving it under the same name as old craft in the previous game. Or anything really, be it image file or document or a video.
Workspace is what you're saving, Vehicle is what you're launching.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You have to create workspace snapshots for each project and then merge these together.

You're adding yourself more work really. It's as easy as it is, which I've been explaining right there for the last 10 minutes or so as I've been typing this. Create multiple vessels under one workspace. No merging, no careful overwriting because currently the only thing that matters for safe saving is workspace name... Piece of cake.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

In the VAB it literally says "Save / Load vehicle", not "Save / Load workspace".

And it's the second and last thing that needs changing. You're not loading vehicles in VAB, but workspaces. But then there's a lot of UI problems that require fixing so let's not lose hope. But don't come up with ridiculous names that help nobody.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You create a new vehicle and try to save it inside a previous workspace and guess what - you overwrite that previous vehicle. It makes no sense.

That's how saving works. If you create a new vehicle that may be similar in some way to others you've already saved, then you can simply open that workspace or load->merge. Because why would you deliberately overwrite something unless you wanted it gone?

What I'm gathering here is that Vl3d is trying to put multiple vehicles into one workspace, by putting two vehicles in different workspaces, then saving Vehicle B to a workspace with the same name as Vehicle A's workspace, thus overwriting it? Yeah, it really isn't that complicated, Vl3d. Just drop another part or duplicate the existing vehicle in the same workspace and build off of it.

[Vl3d]

Ok, I'll try to get used to it as you described. I was confused by the "Load / Save Vehicle" window labels.. I thought the "vehicle" is the project name, not just a label for what you launch. Because in one screenshot there was the "Main Menu Fleet" vehicle..

[J.Random]

So, you can't save a subassembly, you have to save the whole workspace. And you can't load this subassembly into another workspace, you have to merge the workspaces (and I hope  the process doesn't include deletion of one of them) and then remove the extra stuff. This is needlessly convoluted. They should take a page from SIMS book.

[The Aziz]

7 minutes ago, J.Random said:

So, you can't save a subassembly, you have to save the whole workspace. And you can't load this subassembly into another workspace, you have to merge the workspaces (and I hope  the process doesn't include deletion of one of them) and then remove the extra stuff. This is needlessly convoluted. They should take a page from SIMS book.

Sooo.. open the desired workspace first before working on that specific subassembly? How hard is that?

[Vl3d]

11 minutes ago, J.Random said:

So, you can't save a subassembly, you have to save the whole workspace. And you can't load this subassembly into another workspace, you have to merge the workspaces (and I hope  the process doesn't include deletion of one of them) and then remove the extra stuff. This is needlessly convoluted.

And isn't it funny that the multiplayer way of "throwing workspaces to each other" is just Ctrl+C -> online text message -> Ctrl+V? This transfers the whole workspace, right? Does this merge it inside the current workspace when pasting? Can't check right now.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Mutex]

9 minutes ago, J.Random said:

So, you can't save a subassembly, you have to save the whole workspace. And you can't load this subassembly into another workspace, you have to merge the workspaces (and I hope  the process doesn't include deletion of one of them) and then remove the extra stuff. This is needlessly convoluted. They should take a page from SIMS book.

I *think* you can copy and paste a subassembly from one workspace to another.

[J.Random]

1 minute ago, The Aziz said:

Sooo.. open the desired workspace first before working on that specific subassembly? How hard is that?

No, what I mean, there should be a way to save just a craft or just a subassembly - and add it later into current workspace.

[regex]

1 minute ago, Mutex said:

I *think* you can copy and paste a subassembly from one workspace to another.

That Scott Manley short indicates a ctrl-c on a subassembly creates a json object, which would also indicate to me that you can ctrl-v proper json into a workspace.

I haven't tried it but it sounds legit, at least.

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, J.Random said:

No, what I mean, there should be a way to save just a craft or just a subassembly - and add it later into current workspace.

Why does it need to be added later? Furthermore, does the ability to merge stuff and copy stuff not already do this?