Maneuver UI should be fully usable while game is paused

[Snark]

Currently, if the game is paused, everything involved in the maneuver UI goes dead (is locked, read-only, can't interact with or edit).  For example,

• player can't place a maneuver node
• player can't edit an existing maneuver node
• player can't toggle maneuver node between expanded/collapsed appearance
• player can't delete a maneuver node

There's no reason why a player shouldn't be able to do all of those things while paused.  Everything else in the game allows paused interaction-- for example, I can switch back and forth between map and flight view, I can look at the properties of parts, I can toggle settings on parts, etc.

Note that, since getting maneuver nodes set up juuuust right is a fiddly process that can be time-consuming, this is actually one of the most important things to be able to do when paused.  "Pause the game, do maneuver node tinkering, now go" is a thing a player should be able to do.

(What makes it especially bad right now is that not only does the UI not work, but there's no visual indication that it's deactivated-- it looks as though it should work, it's just that nothing happens when you click on it.  This is of especial concern to new users who may not be familiar with the UI, whose instinct is going to be "this is hard, better pause the game while I figure it out" and the confusion results because they can't tell what they're supposed to be able to click on.)

[Superluminaut]

I think this is a bug. I've seen mentions of people placing/modifying nodes in pause.

[Czejenesku]

I would add "use while paused" as a difficulty toggle. You are meant to plan way ahead and have the danger of missing the window while planning.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Czejenesku

[Davidian1024]

I agree that it makes sense a difficulty toggle.  But "use while paused" should be the default.  "Can't use while pause" should be part of an optional more challenging difficulty level.

[Vallius]

I thought I heard somewhere in one of the KSP2 ESA preview videos  that the devs actually meant for us to be able to do maneuver nodes while paused.

[Snark]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:22 AM, Czejenesku said:

I would add "use while paused" as a difficulty toggle. You are meant to plan way ahead and have the danger of missing the window while planning.

I would disagree with this, fairly strongly.

I think that KSP is a game about thinking things through and planning them out. And the maneuver tool is a planning tool. Pausing the game allows for more planning. There's no reason to penalize the player. Other UI works just fine when paused. You can switch back and forth between map and camera. You can choose a target. You can toggle various controls on the ship, such as whether reaction wheels are enabled. So why single that one thing out and make it not work? It makes no sense.

The game is not about "doing things really fast and if you're not fast enough, you get a penalty." This is not a twitch-reflexes game. Forcing the clock to run while you're figuring out your maneuver nodes is making it into a hurry-up game. For a game that's about thinking things through, how does taking away time to think help the player or make it more fun to play?

Doing so would just make the game more of an ordeal without actually adding to the challenge. "Challenge" in KSP is generally about thinking through more difficult problems (of orbital mechanics, engineering, aerodynamics, mechanical design, etc.) It's not about rushing the player.

I also think it would lead to a poor initial user experience. If a user is new to the game, it's going to take them some time to figure out how to even work that UI. Giving them an experience where "you'll die if you don't figure this out this complicated UI in the next 45 seconds" doesn't seem like it would make them want to come back to the game.

On 3/8/2023 at 6:40 PM, Davidian1024 said:

I agree that it makes sense a difficulty toggle.  But "use while paused" should be the default.  "Can't use while pause" should be part of an optional more challenging difficulty level.

Personally, I'm against it as a game option, even if the default is "can use when paused". Rationale: Features are not free. UI complexity is not free. Any feature added is additional time that some dev is going to have to spend implementing, instead of implementing something else. Every extra bit of complexity added to to the UI is a learning-curve tax that introduces clutter and makes everything else incrementally harder to find. I'm in favor of having options that are important and meaningful and really need to be there, but this doesn't feel to me like it meets that bar. I don't think it's worth the complexity that it would add to the UI, and I'd rather the devs be working on something else.

In short: I think they should just make it work the way the rest of the UI works, and therefore the way the player will expect it to work. Allowing interaction while paused is a useful quality-of-life feature for users, improves consistency, and in no way diminishes the real challenges that are at the heart of KSP.

On 3/8/2023 at 8:34 PM, Vallius said:

I thought I heard somewhere in one of the KSP2 ESA preview videos  that the devs actually meant for us to be able to do maneuver nodes while paused.

That would make sense to me. The current behavior feels kinda like a bug to me, honestly. Not only is it inconsistent with everything else, but when it locks up during pause, there's no visual indication that it's dead (that's one of the problems, actually-- the user clicks on a thing, nothing happens, user thinks it's just not a clickable thing and can't figure out how to work the UI). If the devs actually meant it to be disabled, you'd think there would be some sort of visible "this is disabled" effect.

[magnemoe]

11 hours ago, Davidian1024 said:

I agree that it makes sense a difficulty toggle.  But "use while paused" should be the default.  "Can't use while pause" should be part of an optional more challenging difficulty level.

Agree, also I don't think it matter that much, only time I can get a bit hectic is then launching and setting up an circulation and intercept node who both put you into orbit and does an intercept with craft in orbit. 
Typical then launching to an space station or lander returning to mothership. else its rarely any time constrain on setting up nodes. 

[The Aziz]

And that's exactly why it should be there. If I have an opportunity to do a maneuver that's 20 seconds away, I will. Losing that opportunity could mean losing time and possibly fuel (as maneuver on next orbit could be less efficient).

[Czejenesku]

21 hours ago, Davidian1024 said:

I agree that it makes sense a difficulty toggle.  But "use while paused" should be the default.  "Can't use while pause" should be part of an optional more challenging difficulty level.

Thats exactly what I meant. The same as it would be cool to add official hardcore mode so to speak, inspired by RO and RP maybe. Essentialy more comprehensive difficulty settings. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Czejenesku

[Davidian1024]

Ok, so the patch is out.  I still can't seem to modify maneuvers while the game is paused.  Is it still not possible?  Am I doing it wrong?

[kojot]

So, when this will be fixed?

[WiWun]

I was eager to play ksp 2 after the for science update. Unfortunately, I realized this was a bug after the time limit for a  refund in Steam.

This is a show stopper for me, I don't like to rush to plan my maneuver node for an intercept with mun or eyeball the Periap and apogee of my simple orbit. 

I stopped playing ksp, I  might return when it get t fixed.

[Aevitas]

Agreed, I was unpleasently surprised when I tried to plan a docking manuveur and couldn't do it while paused.

[WiWun]

Just checked again.  After 2 patches it is still not fixed..... I still won't play it, unfortunately.

An early access at 20 bucks might be ok, but the selling price on Steam is currently 66 CAD.  I expect a more finished product at that price.

I am considering trashing the reviews in Steam at that point so at least others might be warned about that bug. 

Edited February 2 by WiWun

[kerballs]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:37 PM, Snark said:

I would disagree with this, fairly strongly.

I think that KSP is a game about thinking things through and planning them out. And the maneuver tool is a planning tool. Pausing the game allows for more planning. There's no reason to penalize the player. Other UI works just fine when paused. You can switch back and forth between map and camera. You can choose a target. You can toggle various controls on the ship, such as whether reaction wheels are enabled. So why single that one thing out and make it not work? It makes no sense.

The game is not about "doing things really fast and if you're not fast enough, you get a penalty."

In agreement 100%.

In real life, every maneuver would be planned down to the millisecond, days or months or years in advance. While there are examples of reactive maneuvers having to be performed (an STS abort to orbit, for example) and emergency maneuvers (ISS debris avoidance), these are never performed with only a few seconds of lead time. Spaceflight just doesn't work like that - if debris is coming towards you, and you've not picked it up well ahead of time, you're not going to know it's come and gone until your cabin starts depressurizing.

KSP, of course, allows for a lot more flying by the seat of one's pants. But that's the fun of it.