Control surfaces need explained better

[Pyritin]

There is the Wing, Stabilizer, and Control Surface subgroups inside of the Aerodynamics group. They are all extremely similar visually (if not completely the same) and their settings in parts manager match as well. It's incredibly difficult to be able to tell what the difference is between parts in each group. To my knowledge there is nothing in the UI that explains it either. It'd be nice if the game did a better job at explaining why you'd use one group over the other, and what the key differences are between the 3. Would make for a decent tutorial video as well.

[EvelynThe Dragon]

So using a conventional aircraft layout, here is how you should think of them:

• Wings are for generating lift. They have ailerons on them for roll control/banking.
• Stabilizers are mostly a fixed fin with a smaller control surface area that depending on placement allow for pitch (horizontal stabilizer, elevator) or yaw (vertical stabilizer, rudder) adjustments. They help keep a craft flying in the direction you want while also allowing directional control.
• Control Surface is an all-moving fin that allows for very aggressive directional control. A lot of fighter aircraft in real life have such  control surface, usually in place of a horizontal stabilizer or as canards to allow for very fast pitch changes.

If you want to use fins on a rocket, use Stabilizers. Don't use Control surfaces or wings.

On an airplane, use wings for lift, and stabilizers for your tail surfaces, unless you want to have a very responsive aircraft (that may be quite difficult to fly straight because it is unstable).

I hope this helps.

 

[Pyritin]

Thanks for the help, because I admit I'm pretty muddy on it. So am I correct in that the basic summary is:

Wings - Only parts that generate lift
Stabilizers - Allow fine tune control of directionality
Control Surface - Allow larger control of directionality

[Sea_Kerman]

All of them generate lift

wings are assymetrical airfoils (at least visually, not sure about physics-wise) with an optional control surface on the back

stabilizers are symmetrical airfoils with an optional control surface on the back

control surfaces are like stabilizers but the entire thing swivels instead of a small flap on the back

[Pyritin]

17 hours ago, Sea_Kerman said:

All of them generate lift

wings are assymetrical airfoils (at least visually, not sure about physics-wise) with an optional control surface on the back

stabilizers are symmetrical airfoils with an optional control surface on the back

control surfaces are like stabilizers but the entire thing swivels instead of a small flap on the back

I though the wings being asymmetrical from top and bottom ARE what caused lift. Having symmetry on top and bottom WOULDN'T provide lift if on the run way (unless perhaps it was angled)

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

Lift is generated regardless of wing profile symmetry, once your contraption is moving, if angle of attach is different than 0 (except if it's 0 AoA and symetric).

Whether it’s on the runway or not, it doesn’t matter. 

What matters is relative wind to the wing or in this case control surfaces, and an angle of attack different than 0.

Aircraft maneuvers are achieved by using control surface lift to change from straight and level flight.

And you need a change of AoA and extra lift and drag on the control surfaces to upset that balance in straight and level flight, and perform maneuvers like pitch, roll, yaw. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[Lyneira]

All wing types do generate lift when there is a non-zero angle of attack. The main wing parts with asymmetric airfoils should, in reality, generate lift even at an angle of attack of zero.

From memory of my lift/drag tests in the past, I'm fairly certain that's not the case in KSP2. Shame we can no longer open the Aero GUI with F12 to verify.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

19 minutes ago, Lyneira said:

All wing types do generate lift when there is a non-zero angle of attack. The main wing parts with asymmetric airfoils should, in reality, generate lift even at an angle of attack of zero.

From memory of my lift/drag tests in the past, I'm fairly certain that's not the case in KSP2. Shame we can no longer open the Aero GUI with F12 to verify.

Yes, that's correct, because on a asymmetric wing profile, you have camber line which is different than the Chord line on that type of wing profile and, which will generate lift even at 0 AoA.

On Symmetric wing profile the chord line = camber line, and if AoA is 0 degrees then it means it creates no lift.

 

Here is Asymetrical with 0 AoA and how it generates lift due to camber.

 

Curious just how much of all this has been simulated (or is planned to be) in KSP2's aerodynamics model.

Edited May 8, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[cocoscacao]

I'm not sure if anyone would appreciate the ability to do part rotation via input (in degrees). Sometimes, adjusting wing's angle of attack in juuuust the right way, can be cumbersome with the mouse. Rare occasion, but an occasion nonetheless.

Edit:

Though I think it's doable with arrow keys

Edited May 8, 2023 by cocoscacao

[Lyneira]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

Though I think it's doable with arrow keys

Can you explain how? I just tried this, and if there is a way to make changes to part rotation with the arrow keys I haven't found it.

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

I'm not sure if anyone would appreciate the ability to do part rotation via input (in degrees). Sometimes, adjusting wing's angle of attack in juuuust the right way, can be cumbersome with the mouse. Rare occasion, but an occasion nonetheless.

I most certainly would! I think the ability to precisely set part orientation is pretty important for the high end of a player's plane building skill growth. Whether text input or a very fine snap grid using arrow keys or something else, this makes it much easier to set a wing angle of incidence to a known good value without excessive trial and error. And when you do have to iterate and test, it makes it much easier to home in on the ideal angle of incidence for the flight profile you're designing it for.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Lyneira

[cocoscacao]

@Lyneira Nope. My bad. I'm getting slightly schizophrenic about present features. Both games lack part angle rotation with keys.... 

Edited May 8, 2023 by cocoscacao