You promised us communication, where is it?

[Pthigrivi]

56 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Don't confuse "the regulars" with those that share your viewpoint. In fact, a lot of the real regulars clearly have chosen to eat somewhere else.

I did say ‘some’. Im sure many have moved on. Others are Mac and linux people out in the cold. Others lurk but wont have much to say until bugs get fixed and content gets added. Thats pretty understandable. 

[The Aziz]

12 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

Is it as weird as customers who acknowledge the food is terrible, are not even eating said food, but  routinely come back to the restaurant each day to make hour-long speeches in front of the restaurant about how people should still be giving it a chance, that it's totally understandable that there's a good chance the customer will get food poisoning, that they should support the restaurant anyway so that some day, perhaps, just maybe the food is less nauseating and vaguely edible -  and if anyone has issues with food poisoning, its their own fault for not reading the fine print? 

I think it's less weird than that, myself.  

Maybe the person returning to remind people "hey this food is actively going to make you sick' is only there because otherwise the people might be fooled by the people routinely delivering those soliloquies, and covering up for the terrible food inside.

You know this could be very much turned around and still be true, right?

[MarcAbaddon]

15 hours ago, Periple said:

I think they're being much nicer than we -- as a community -- deserve!

Don't believe you can say that for sure. Given that the shape the game is in and the fact that's they are working for the publishers, they just have a strong incentive for being polite and positive at the moment. Is there still genuine niceness and positive feelings behind it? I don't think we are in a place to tell.  

[RocketRockington]

5 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Don't confuse "the regulars" with those that share your viewpoint. In fact, a lot of the real regulars clearly have chosen to eat somewhere else.

This.  I spent a lot of time playing KSP, but some people would like to gatekeep my ability to comment on the sequel because I don't subject myself to playing it constantly.  Why would I?  And why shouldn't I comment on an ongoing disaster destroying the franchise?

Edited September 18, 2023 by RocketRockington

[RayneCloud]

3 hours ago, MarcAbaddon said:

Don't believe you can say that for sure. Given that the shape the game is in and the fact that's they are working for the publishers, they just have a strong incentive for being polite and positive at the moment. Is there still genuine niceness and positive feelings behind it? I don't think we are in a place to tell.  

As a professional Community Manager with nearly a decade behind me, it was my Job, to talk to the community. It was what I was paid for, that meant taking all the abuse that was hurled at me. The death threats, the people yelling and screaming at me telling mw that I was the worst thing to walk the earth, and listening to people hurl insults at my co-workers who I knew for a fact were working as hard as they could. 

I started this thread because I was and still am disappointed with the pacing of communication and I do personally feel that the community deserves more communication, of a higher quality, but the main issue is that takes time, energy, and resources away from dev ops, (if you want comms from the dev team) which as CM's, we are not. We're not in the editor making the game (some of us might know it well enough thanks to being taught by our team so we can answer questions) but it's not our job. Our job is to be out here with you all so the team can focus and work. Those people in dev ops, DO NOT owe you anything, but going in to work and doing their jobs giving their best and making the best quality game they can. It's up to the CM's to relay what they're doing to the Community and senior leadership like Nate. 

Any "Beef" should always be directed at people like me, the forward facing Community and Media Relations People, the PR people, and Leadership. Never the rank and file dev-ops person coming in to work today to work on some models, textures, sounds, animations, what have you. Even then, keeping your disappointment directed, reserved, and polite is possible while still getting across how disappointed and upset you are. Which, again, you're allowed to be...no one has ever said and will ever say that you're "not allowed" to be disappointed with the state of the game, the state of communication, or be worried about future updates and content. You have that right as a consumer who spent their own hard earned money on this product. We're simply saying, you can get all that across without being toxic and abusive (not that I am accusing of being either of those things, please don't take it that way.)

In short, to end my rambling, be vocal, outspoken, and yes, demand better, ask for answers, etc, but do so realizing these are still human beings that make mistakes, and don't just stop being human beings because they sold you a product, good, or service.

[The Aziz]

10 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

We're simply saying, you can get all that across without being toxic and abusive (not that I am accusing of being either of those things, please don't take it that way.)

I don't think I'd have any fingers left if I counted all times the "incompetent developers" phrase was used around here. In my notebook, those count as abusive comments.

[RayneCloud]

7 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I don't think I'd have any fingers left if I counted all times the "incompetent developers" phrase was used around here. In my notebook, those count as abusive comments.

If I had a penny for every time I heard it directed at the people I worked with, I'd be rich.

[Vl3d]

Just want to say that the devs should have our support because I think they're working hard and great things are coming for KSP 2. Don't lose faith during the droughts!

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Just want to say that the devs should have our support because I think they're working hard and great things are coming for KSP 2. Don't lose faith during the droughts!

Has there been a non-drought to interrupt any droughts?  This makes it sound like there's been, at some point, a flood of development to interrupt the lack of it.  Also, does one need to have faith here now?  Is KSP2 now a religion?

Edited September 18, 2023 by RocketRockington

[VlonaldKerman]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I don't think I'd have any fingers left if I counted all times the "incompetent developers" phrase was used around here. In my notebook, those count as abusive comments.

Man, if the level of criticism you’re expected to handle as a game dev is so low, I want to be a game dev! It’s abuse to say I might be incompetent when my work product is disappointing (seemingly)? Where do I sign up?

[The Aziz]

You clearly missed the last few pages of this thread. It's not about what they can handle (because that can differ for every single person), it's about what you can say to express your disappointment without being an ass and resorting to unpleasant words directed at devs. Criticize the product, not the people behind it.

[Alexoff]

22 hours ago, Periple said:

I think they're being much nicer than we -- as a community -- deserve!

Probably the community doesn’t deserve KSP2 at the level it is now? This reminds me of the speeches of that religious lady from the movie "The Mist"

25 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Criticize the product, not the people behind it.

Communications is also a kind of product of the public communications department

[Periple]

37 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Man, if the level of criticism you’re expected to handle as a game dev is so low, I want to be a game dev! It’s abuse to say I might be incompetent when my work product is disappointing (seemingly)? Where do I sign up?

Yeah, that would be abusive.

If you're not working to expectations, your line manager needs to find out why and help you get up to scratch. If it turns out you're not actually capable of doing the job you were hired for, then you might need to be placed in a different role, or sometimes more drastic action might need to be taken.

In no case is it OK for somebody in the public to jump down your throat, for you to be publicly shamed, or any other stuff like that. It will only make things worse. Fans and members of the public least of all because we really have no idea what's going on or, if there is blame to go around, who ought to be blamed.

Also gamedev is super high stress compared to most occupations that demand similar skill sets.

[Periple]

33 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Probably the community doesn’t deserve KSP2 at the level it is now?

The topic of conversation is studio communications, not the state of the game. 

34 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This reminds me of the speeches of that religious lady from the movie "The Mist"

I have no idea what you’re talking about but okay!

 

8 hours ago, MarcAbaddon said:

Don't believe you can say that for sure. Given that the shape the game is in and the fact that's they are working for the publishers, they just have a strong incentive for being polite and positive at the moment. Is there still genuine niceness and positive feelings behind it? I don't think we are in a place to tell.  

The CMs are supposed to be nice. Developers like Nertea or any of the others are under no obligation to interact with us at all, it’s not part of their job description.

[RocketRockington]

58 minutes ago, Periple said:

In no case is it OK for somebody in the public to jump down your throat, for you to be publicly shamed, or any other stuff like that. It will only make things worse. Fans and members of the public least of all because we really have no idea what's going on or, if there is blame to go around, who ought to be blamed.

Noone has done any of that in this thread.  Y'all are making things up.  It's a thread about bad comms.  How many straw men need to die for you to believe you've won this arguement?

[Alexoff]

30 minutes ago, Periple said:

The topic of conversation is studio communications, not the state of the game. 

But the question remains

 

And I agree, I wrote before - if players are willing to endure and consume low-quality goods, they will receive it. So the community is indeed to blame, but not from the side you think.

[Periple]

1 minute ago, Alexoff said:

But the question remains

I wasn’t talking about that question though and it’s not nice to put words in my mouth!

3 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

And I agree, I wrote before - if players are willing to endure and consume low-quality goods, they will receive it. So the community is indeed to blame, but not from the side you think.

If you’re saying this community is being too positive about KSP2 or its developers then I think you’re being silly again!

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

I wasn’t talking about that question though and it’s not nice to put words in my mouth!

This was my question. Did not you notice?

1 hour ago, Periple said:

If you’re saying this community is being too positive about KSP2 or its developers then I think you’re being silly again!

For a game of this quality, 48% positive reviews is a great honor, don't you think? Or will you just write sarcasticly?

[VlonaldKerman]

2 hours ago, Periple said:

Yeah, that would be abusive.

If you're not working to expectations, your line manager needs to find out why and help you get up to scratch. If it turns out you're not actually capable of doing the job you were hired for, then you might need to be placed in a different role, or sometimes more drastic action might need to be taken.

In no case is it OK for somebody in the public to jump down your throat, for you to be publicly shamed, or any other stuff like that. It will only make things worse. Fans and members of the public least of all because we really have no idea what's going on or, if there is blame to go around, who ought to be blamed.

Also gamedev is super high stress compared to most occupations that demand similar skill sets.

I agree that publicly deriding programmers is not a productive thing. In fact, you can look back through even my most critical posts and see that if I tentatively blame anyone specifically, my hypotheses tend to blame management.

However, counterproductive != abusive. Bad? Maybe. Morale draining? Maybe, though I would venture that is something that individual people whose moral is being drained have a lot of control over it.

Throughout history, by this standard, most working people have had to tolerate “abuse”. Many or most of them took it on the chin. For some reason, we have either lost this expectation in the modern age, or at least don’t revere or encourage it.

That’s a massive tangent, but the reason why I think it’s relevant is that it would be neither accurate nor fair to blame “the community” for almost anything associated with the game going wrong. I mean that both in the present sense, and in the future if people are doing postmortems talking about “what went wrong”.

When we act as if devs are irrevocably harmed by community members lashing out in frustration at a bad game, we both fan the flames of anger and provoke backlash, and also rhetorically strip individual developers of their agency with respect to their own feelings and morale, thus potentially condemning them to emotional fragility and demotivation. I mean this in the broadest possible, culture-wide sense. When I get criticized unfairly over something I take pride in, I try my best to channel my frustration into proving those criticizing me unfairly wrong.

Criticism, however unfair, is not an excuse for well-compensated developers. I’m not necessarily saying that you said it’s an excuse, but I feel that it’s the water in which your opinion swims.

[Periple]

4 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Throughout history, by this standard, most working people have had to tolerate “abuse”. Many or most of them took it on the chin. For some reason, we have either lost this expectation in the modern age, or at least don’t revere or encourage it.

Not that long ago sexual harassment was totally normal at work too, it’s only in the last few years that there have been consequences for it. Work culture has changed, in some ways for the worse but also in some ways for the better!

13 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

That’s a massive tangent, but the reason why I think it’s relevant is that it would be neither accurate nor fair to blame “the community” for almost anything associated with the game going wrong. I mean that both in the present sense, and in the future if people are doing postmortems talking about “what went wrong”.

I agree!

13 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

When we act as if devs are irrevocably harmed by community members lashing out in frustration at a bad game, we both fan the flames of anger and provoke backlash, and also rhetorically strip individual developers of their agency with respect to their own feelings and morale, thus potentially condemning them to emotional fragility and demotivation. I mean this in the broadest possible, culture-wide sense. When I get criticized unfairly over something I take pride in, I try my best to channel my frustration into proving those criticizing me unfairly wrong.

Criticism, however unfair, is not an excuse for well-compensated developers. I’m not necessarily saying that you said it’s an excuse, but I feel that it’s the water in which your opinion swims.

Most devs don’t pay any attention at all to what fans are saying, and the first thing we tell new joiners is to walk away from online fan communities if they can. Fandom is toxic. That’s why we have CMs, they relay anything they think we ought to hear to us — and I guarantee that abuse and toxicity gets filtered out, while constructive, on-point criticism may make it through. Which is another reason sarcasm, lashing out, and being mean won’t help!

 

22 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This was my question. Did not you notice?

No!

22 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

For a game of this quality, 48% positive reviews is a great honor, don't you think? Or will you just write sarcasticly?

48% positive reviews is really bad!

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, Periple said:

48% positive reviews is really bad!

I didn’t notice any suffering from the developers in this regard; perhaps they expected 4.8% positive feedback. After all, the developers knew perfectly well what they promised and what they did 

[RayneCloud]

13 hours ago, Alexoff said:

I didn’t notice any suffering from the developers in this regard; perhaps they expected 4.8% positive feedback. After all, the developers knew perfectly well what they promised and what they did 

I can promise you that not a single dev I've ever worked with would see that score and be happy with it. We  don't get in to game dev to make bad games, and KSP2 isn't a bad game, it's got issues and it's not perfect, no game is and no game ever will be. We get in to gaming to share worlds and experiences with others. We hope that when the game goes out in to the public that they like it and enjoy it, and if they don't, they're usually two options...

Give Up

or

Get to work.

This team, I truly believe, has taken the second option.

Again, all I wanted, was more open and dedicated communication HERE, on the forums, where we were promised such. I don't want to be on the discord, and while yes, I can look to the right and see the discord integrated dev tracker thingy, I'd rather like to know where Nate's previous Friday posts have gone. My hope, is that they're just head down working on 1.5 and that 1.5 will bring even more fixes, improvement, and some new features.

Edited September 19, 2023 by RayneCloud

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

KSP2 isn't a bad game, it's got issues and it's not perfect

0.1.0 was not perfect?

Not perfect is BG3 and other games. The developers knew very well what they were releasing and they hardly expected to receive so many positive reviews in advance. Even now they know very well at what stage of readiness most of the features that never appeared are at, and only fans are engaged in fantasizing that everything is actually good. If in August 2023 the developers only showed us plasma in the editor, it is obvious that many of the basic blocks of the game have only recently begun to be developed. If you were to release a game like this, what would your expectations for player ratings be? 80? 90? If the game is only a quarter complete, then you can hardly expect a score of more than 25%.

4 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

Again, all I wanted, was more open and dedicated communication HERE, on the forums

Well, some people write that the community does not deserve this, the community manager is not at all active and is generally on vacation.

[regex]

4 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

Again, all I wanted, was more open and dedicated communication HERE, on the forums, where we were promised such.

Even Squad generally avoided their own forums, at least since I joined (around 0.18/0.19, IIRC?). I have no idea why Intercept prefers Discord, might be a generally younger crowd, it's not bad software and I use it daily but it doesn't have the same conversational potential as a forum. At all.

But ... in all honesty I can't really blame them for avoiding forums. This place is a huge pit of negativity and bad faith arguments going around in circles about the same dumb topics, same with Reddit. At least Discord offers fresh memes on occasion I suppose.

[Alexoff]

Oh this bad community! They constantly write about the problems of the game and the poor work of the developers (including their PR department), why don’t they talk about the merits of the game in a variety of ways with good arguments! Or fantasize about the fact that there is a magnificent game hidden somewhere in a closet that is being hidden from us