Science and Tech Tree with Tom 'FRIIIDAAAAAAAAY' Vinita - KSP 2 Dev Chats

[Scarecrow71]

41 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

(heating image thats way too large for some reason)

  Reveal hidden contents

For literally a second at 17:53 we saw some during ascent, according to darrin the fact that the heat showed is not a bug, but heats been tuned since then (presumably to not make it so jank). 

I was talking about his descent back to Kerbin; I saw the 1 second of heat on the way up...but there was nothing on the way down.

[The Aziz]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Is it because the game is supposed to primarily be about rockets and space

Probably yeah, it's still called Space Program. Besides, you will have access to Light Aviation node after just few flights. No biggie.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Will we still be able to get samples while hanging on the ladder, or was that changed in KSP2?

The sample collection, dunno if you've noticed, has an animation now. How is it going to play if a Kerbal is holding onto a ladder?

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Are we allowed to spend transmitted science points immediately, or do we have to wait for the ship that sent them to get back?

If you look closely at the video, the science counter on the top right changes when it's transmitting. Extrapolate from that.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

More than 100?  It takes massive grinding to get that many around the KSC in KSP1. Will this be corrected prior to the release?

As stated in the video, it's an older build and the rewards have been corrected.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

We have been told that heat and atmospheric effects would be included with 0.2.  Has something changed?

Yep, an older build.

 

[Pthigrivi]

Man this video was great. Thanks for taking the time. A few thoughts off the bat: 

1) It's really good to hear there will be a subtle distinction between physical samples and other forms of data and that the samples themselves need to be returned. I like the way thats being broken out. Im curious if things like liquid + atmospheric samples will have a similar dynamic? Im definitely curious about how each experiment will work but Im guessing we'll hear more on that later.  The more in-game mechanical distinction the better.

2) I think there are some really smart decisions being made on the tech tree and I like the way its organized. The whole grind vs gate question has come up a bunch of times on the board so Im excited to see how all these incentives and rewards play out. I do however think this makes getting a real flight planning tool for interplanetary transfers even more important in the near future as giving players a clear visual to understand  launch windows and phase and ejection angles will make it much easier for them to go beyond Minmus.

3) This might sound subtle but I think it's also really smart to limit the number of medium sized biomes and focus on visually distinct landscapes and discoverables. Precision landing and over-land (or over sea) exploration are really key parts of gameplay that KSP1 never really took advantage of until BG, and even then not super well. Which leads to:

6 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Tom and Nate both mentioned dozens of discoverables around the Kerbolar system.  I'm curious to know if there are any clues given in-game as to their locations?  Will we get some kind of music, or cut-scenes, or even messages to let us know we might be close?  As someone who hasn't ever even seen the Mun arch in-game (with over 1000 hours played), it would be rather disappointing to not be able to find these in-game (and I'm not very good at just wandering about and getting lucky).

This is a big one for me. I think I remember seeing one of the experiment descriptions hinting that it can help track these down? I fully agree there needs to be a way to search for them and I'd really like to see some mapping tools as things progress. Even just having broad biome maps so you can clearly see where you've been and what you've already explored seems essential, and Im sure even more so when resources are added in down the line. Plus as many have noted that SCANsat orbital survey mechanic is gold as an in-game engineering + navigation puzzle.

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Probably yeah, it's still called Space Program. Besides, you will have access to Light Aviation node after just few flights. No biggie.

Thats my take as well. It seems like after a couple of hops players could branch into probes or planes if they wish and progress from there. 
 

4 hours ago, Casellina X said:

I see Tom decided to come straight at me at 30:12.

I know, brotha's gonna make me cry!

Edit Sorry I thought you meant Min. 35 and Tom's actually very heartfelt closing thoughts on this, which were honestly quite moving. You can tell how much these folks care. 
 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Casellina X]

One thing I would like to see, and it would be cool if it was confirmed, is the expansion of tutorials with this update. For example: I know how to do a gravity turn, but I don't know how to do one efficiently. I know how to rendezvous, but I don't know how to do it without major guess work during maneuver planning. I know how to get to Duna, but I don't know anything about transfer windows and how to figure that out for myself. I know what a gravity assist is in concept, but not how to execute one. And while I know there are YouTubers that cover these concepts, I think those are crucial to gameplay and empowering the player to explore beyond the Mun and Minmus, and thus should be clear and present in the game.

[Strawberry]

16 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

This is a big one for me. I think I remember seeing one of the experiment descriptions hinting that it can help track these down? I fully agree there needs to be a way to search for them and I'd really like to see some mapping tools as things progress. Even just having broad biome maps so you can clearly see where you've been and what you've already explored seems essential, and Im sure even more so when resources are added in down the line. Plus as many have noted that SCANsat orbital survey mechanic is gold as an in-game engineering + navigation puzzle.
 

This is straight from the speculation pits so take this with a grain of salt. The big lab thing will probably be unlocked in the orbital report node on the tech tree. The name orbital report may imply that that lab serves as a sort of scansat esc thing maybe? 

[regex]

These guys saying "mŭn" and "the mŭn" is actually triggering me, hard to watch...

Edited December 1, 2023 by regex

[Pthigrivi]

45 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

This is straight from the speculation pits so take this with a grain of salt. The big lab thing will probably be unlocked in the orbital report node on the tech tree. The name orbital report may imply that that lab serves as a sort of scansat esc thing maybe? 

I mean I haven't seen any evidence yet so... probably not...yet. But I think it's a really good opportunity. In the same way Starfield makes landing a cut scene or outright fast-travel whereas in KSP its this harrowing player experience that conjures the real thrill and terror of vacuum landings, KSP can do  things and leverage all that incredibly hard work constructing full-3d space that other games cant. In most games you scan a planet by hitting "SCAN" and there it is, where KSP with some injection of reality with polar orbits and scan ranges and energy usage you can make the presentation of actual planetary data more physical and tangible and tied to exactly how you plan and execute your missions. You can plan years out with light-weight, probe-based survey missions to scout landing and colony locations as a matter of strategy. You can build a satellite bundle that shares an interplanetary transfer drive and then splits off into a polar scanner and geo-synch relay network. As things progress I'd like to see science experiments capture those kinds of in-game, physical, navigational, and resource-based mechanics to give players actual, usable information and capabilities. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[regex]

Kind of weird to me that Eve isn't considered a "target" in progression until tier 4, that should be a very easy early target for probes at tier 2. Gilly is very easy to reach as well. Hopefully science experiments aren't locked by tier to prevent exploiting those low delta-V costs, that would be really disappointing.

[ttikkoo]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Why the starting node has a Kerbal capsule if the only thing the Kerbals are useful for are the surface samples (and potentially surveys), since everything else can be done remotely and sent through the commnet?

I think the Kerbals themselves are a big draw to new players. If we begin with probes rather than Kerbal capsules*, the Kerbals themselves are locked behind some gameplay. I remember when I first started, messing around with the silly little Kerbals was great fun while trying to figure out the game. 

I agree that they're only useful for surface samples in terms of Science gathering but I think they are very useful when learning the game because it's just fun to watch them waddle around or freak out as you screw up yet another launch.

*I think that's what you're insinuating here, apologies if I've misinterpreted.

 

[Pthigrivi]

49 minutes ago, ttikkoo said:

I think the Kerbals themselves are a big draw to new players. If we begin with probes rather than Kerbal capsules*, the Kerbals themselves are locked behind some gameplay. I remember when I first started, messing around with the silly little Kerbals was great fun while trying to figure out the game. 

I agree that they're only useful for surface samples in terms of Science gathering but I think they are very useful when learning the game because it's just fun to watch them waddle around or freak out as you screw up yet another launch.

I would further argue this is a really good reason why kerbals themselves shouldn't just be role-play or set-dressing but a central, fully integrated part of gameplay through building and maintaining colonies straight through interstellar exploration.

*cough*life support*cough*cough*

[Emanuel01]

 Am I the only one who felt the tree progression in the video was too rapid? I mean, the person unlocked five nodes right from the first launch..

Besides that, things are looking pretty great! I’m excited 

[Kerbart]

8 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I won't bother at this point asking why it's the science points as currency for purchasing parts again, I guess Tom explained it pretty well.

You seem surprised by this? I thought that was clear for a very, very, very long time that it was going to be the same disappointing mechanic again. Maybe there are some hidden touches like part upgrades but the fact that you can use a molecular biology breakthrough to research ladders—or The Wheel—was kinda like a given for a while. Disappointing as that was.

Just now, Emanuel01 said:

 Am I the only one who felt the tree progression in the video was too rapid? I mean, the person unlocked five nodes right from the first launch..

Besides that, things are looking pretty great! I’m excited 

Watch the video, but now carefully. The surface sample yielded 100 points and Tom admitted that this was a bug, and already fixed (just not in the release used for the video)/

[Pthigrivi]

Oh and how have I not said this YES PLEASE CAN WE SEE THAT SPREADSHEET?? I think I attempted that same spreadsheet last time I put a KSP1 tech tree overhaul together and it is not easy. 

[ttikkoo]

19 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I would further argue this is a really good reason why kerbals themselves shouldn't just be role-play or set-dressing but a central, fully integrated part of gameplay through building and maintaining colonies straight through interstellar exploration.

*cough*life support*cough*cough*

I'm very split on this. It would definitely do a good job of integrating the Kerbals into gameplay but it could also dissuade new players as it the Kerbals could now be a hassle to take care of. The middle ground I like is that the starter capsule takes care of all life support needs for any mission within the Kerbin system and missions to Duna/Eve/Gilly can be supported very easily. I'm not really sure how to balance this for both new and experienced players outside of providing a bunch of difficulty sliders but I imagine that kind of thing is low priority in EA games.

As for Science, I'm really curious about the parts and experiments themselves. I'm hoping there's experiments which have some more interesting features. Maybe the time they take is months/years or experiments need some resource to run (this would be in a future update). That would allow space stations to have a use case outside of "looks cool".

[Minmus Taster]

16 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Oh and how have I not said this YES PLEASE CAN WE SEE THAT SPREADSHEET?? I think I attempted that same spreadsheet last time I put a KSP1 tech tree overhaul together and it is not easy. 

2 hours ago, regex said:

Kind of weird to me that Eve isn't considered a "target" in progression until tier 4, that should be a very easy early target for probes at tier 2. Gilly is very easy to reach as well. Hopefully science experiments aren't locked by tier to prevent exploiting those low delta-V costs, that would be really disappointing.

I thought that meant that you just needed a durable enough experiment to survive the local conditions, could also just be talking about a crewed flight which would definitely belong in late progression (to this day I've never actually returned a Kerbal from Eve's surface, not for lack of trying )

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, regex said:

Kind of weird to me that Eve isn't considered a "target" in progression until tier 4, that should be a very easy early target for probes at tier 2. Gilly is very easy to reach as well. Hopefully science experiments aren't locked by tier to prevent exploiting those low delta-V costs, that would be really disappointing.

Considering how devastating Eve's atmosphere is upon entry, as well as the high dV requirement to get back into space from her surface, I'm not surprised it is being touted as a later-game destination.

[regex]

10 minutes ago, Minmus Taster said:

I thought that meant that you just needed a durable enough experiment to survive the local conditions, could also just be talking about a crewed flight which would definitely belong in late progression (to this day I've never actually returned a Kerbal from Eve's surface, not for lack of trying )

They said "detailed scans" so maybe that's what's going on, but it would be a real bummer for me if the progression was thought out to happen in a certain way with experiments unlocked to foster that rather than letting the player decide on science targets.

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Considering how devastating Eve's atmosphere is upon entry, as well as the high dV requirement to get back into space from her surface, I'm not surprised it is being touted as a later-game destination.

It's really easy to send a science probe there and land it to transmit, that was always one of my earliest extraplanetary missions in KSP1. You don't need to hit the atmosphere doing a hyperbolic trajectory, if you gain orbit it's quite easy to land.

[Scarecrow71]

7 minutes ago, regex said:

It's really easy to send a science probe there and land it to transmit, that was always one of my earliest extraplanetary missions in KSP1. You don't need to hit the atmosphere doing a hyperbolic trajectory, if you gain orbit it's quite easy to land.

While I don't disagree with you, you have to remember that new players will make the same mistakes all the rest of us made in KSP1.

[Pthigrivi]

33 minutes ago, regex said:

It's really easy to send a science probe there and land it to transmit, that was always one of my earliest extraplanetary missions in KSP1. You don't need to hit the atmosphere doing a hyperbolic trajectory, if you gain orbit it's quite easy to land.

It sounds like they’re not strictly gating anything behind specific exploration benchmarks so there wouldn’t really be anything preventing you from dropping that one-way probe as early as you were able so long as you could successfully navigate the aerocapture and landing. I think thats right—let players do what they like and work the numbers… but it makes the reward scale from tier to tier really tricky to manage. Thats why Id love to see that spreadsheet and the implications. Im just curious how they’re thinking about player tradeoffs. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Kerbart]

24 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

While I don't disagree with you, you have to remember that new players will make the same mistakes all the rest of us made in KSP1.

What mistake? Thinking that KSP2 was going to be a leap forward?

[regex]

3 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

It sounds like they’re not strictly gating anything behind specific exploration benchmarks

I'm concerned about gating science experiments. I think that was a poor decision in KSP1, it meant that nodes in the tech tree with experiments were much higher value than others. I usually bee-lined those once I'd gotten sufficient parts to build the way I wanted.

28 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

While I don't disagree with you, you have to remember that new players will make the same mistakes all the rest of us made in KSP1.

That's irrelevant. New players will learn, but old players shouldn't have their creative solutions hobbled by new players being led by the nose.

[Kerbart]

2 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

It sounds like they’re not strictly gating anything behind specific exploration benchmarks so there wouldn’t really be anything preventing you from dropping that one-way probe as early as you were able so long as you could successfully navigate the aerocapture and land landing. I think thats right—let players do what they like and work the numbers… but it makes the reward scale from tier to tier really tricky to manage. Thats why Id love to see that spreadsheet and the implications. 

My suspicion is that this is actually the part that will be interesting. With the cost traveling rightward through the tech tree going up exponentially,  it'll probably take something like a surface sample from THE MÜN to unlock Tier 2 and a Duna landing to unlock Tier 3 instead of collecting 28 gravioly samples from a polar orbit around Kerbin. If they've done their homework that will be where collecting science forces exploration (over grinding away)

[Scarecrow71]

15 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

What mistake? Thinking that KSP2 was going to be a leap forward?

The trial and error we went through IN KSP1 LIKE I STATED with crafting rockets and trying to get onto Eve's surface.

13 minutes ago, regex said:

That's irrelevant. New players will learn, but old players shouldn't have their creative solutions hobbled by new players being led by the nose.

You are making the assumption that either I or the devs stated that going to Eve would be gated behind a specific tier.  We didn't.  There is nothing stopping you from going there as soon as you feel ready.  For newer players, the tech at those later tiers is going to be geared towards making it easier.

[Periple]

2 hours ago, regex said:

That's irrelevant. New players will learn, but old players shouldn't have their creative solutions hobbled by new players being led by the nose.

I don’t think there’s anything there to stop you from launching your very first rocket to Eve!

[The Aziz]

The reentry is. You don't get a heat shield on the starting node, so good luck with that.