Unlock Base Building and Orbital / Extraplanetary Construction Early

[CiberX15]

This is looking forward to the next major release but I wanted to get the thought out there. 

I’ve been enjoying the new science update, however, I’m already starting to feel bored with it. It’s not the game's fault, it's just that I’ve done all these missions before, both in KSP and in KSP 2. Right now that’s not a big deal, the game is unfinished and the exciting new features aren’t in yet. However I worry that once Base Building and Exoplanetary construction are in, they’ll be blocked behind multiple levels of science before they can be used.

The most important and exciting part of Base Building and Exoplanetary construction to me is being able to remove the tedium of repeated tasks. 

How many times do I need to get into orbit? How many times do I need to land on the Mun. If I can build bases and orbital construction yards… Just once.

I’ve launched a lot of things into orbit at this point, and while it’s fun at first, there’s only so many times I can do it before it starts feeling really tedious. Based on my understanding of the current plan, building an orbital shipyard solves that. I can make a few launches to get the shipyard built, and prove I can supply it by making a supply run. Then I can do all future launches from the shipyard and avoid having to do any more tedious launches from Kerbin. 

So that’s exactly what I’m hoping for when base building is released, and it sounds like the plan. I’m just worried that that kind of base building and orbital construction and automated replies will end up locked behind Tier 3+ science unlocks, which to me would defeat the purpose. 

Especially as a veteran player who’s done all this before in KSP 1, I don’t know that I could stay interested long enough to unlock Tier 3 or higher science before the tedium got to me and I moved on to something else.

So my recommendation would be to make sure the tech to support base building, exoplanetary construction, and automatic resupplies is available at least in some capacity as early as Tier 2 science at the latest.

Limiting the size of early tier construction yards could be used to make sure there were still more unlocks to be able to build _anything_ in space, but I want to be able to build _something_ in space pretty quickly once those new features come online.

Edited December 23, 2023 by CiberX15

[Kerbart]

Why the black font. It's unreadable when using the dark theme.

[HebaruSan]

36 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Why the black font. It's unreadable when using the dark theme.

Likely copy-pasting from elsewhere. @CiberX15, if that's what you're doing, click the "Paste as plain text" link at the bottom of the edit box to clear the formatting and ensure all users can read your post.

[CiberX15]

1 minute ago, HebaruSan said:

Likely copy-pasting from elsewhere. @CiberX15, if that's what you're doing, click the "Paste as plain text" link at the bottom of the edit box to clear the formatting and ensure all users can read your post.

Hurm... It's not a black on black for me... I'm also using dark mode basically all the time, and you're right I'm copy pasting, but it's white on black on my screen,  and when I disable my dark mode it goes to black on white...

Is this happening only for my posts (I've just done 4-5 today using the same method), or is this happening for all posts. Trying to understand if this is a formatting issue on my end or if your dark mode is misbehaving. 

My understanding is that the default for the forums is black text on a white background, so I can't understand how my posts would be the only ones having this problem, unless the dark mode isn't working correctly if a color has been changed? But even when copy and pasting I'm not changing colors so... I don't know what would be going on there.

I've attempted to edit the post to remove formatting in any case. Let me know if it worked?

[HebaruSan]

2 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

Is this happening only for my posts (I've just done 4-5 today using the same method), or is this happening for all posts. Trying to understand if this is a formatting issue on my end or if your dark mode is misbehaving. 

Definitely just you.

2 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

I've attempted to edit the post to remove formatting in any case. Let me know if it worked?

Yup, that fixed it. Thanks!

Edited December 23, 2023 by HebaruSan

[CiberX15]

Kewl. Now hopefully I remember to keep clearing the format so I don't run into this again in the future. 

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, CiberX15 said:

I’ve been enjoying the new science update, however, I’m already starting to feel bored with it. It’s not the game's fault, it's just that I’ve done all these missions before, both in KSP and in KSP 2. Right now that’s not a big deal, the game is unfinished and the exciting new features aren’t in yet. However I worry that once Base Building and Exoplanetary construction are in, they’ll be blocked behind multiple levels of science before they can be used.

i thought that was the point of science mode.

Also keep in mind the developers don't want you to only have to get into space once, and that the tech needed to build stuff in space isn't exactly going to be simple enough to belong in earlier tiers.

[CiberX15]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

i thought that was the point of science mode.

Also keep in mind the developers don't want you to only have to get into space once, and that the tech needed to build stuff in space isn't exactly going to be simple enough to belong in earlier tiers.

In my opinion the point of science mode isn't to cause grind through repeated tedium, it's to create a sense of goals and progression. I'll admit the line between those two can be pretty blurry, especially when going from a sandbox with no limitations, but I do think the distinction is worth making.

For example, if the goal was just to make the game last longer artificially they could just make each individual part cost 100 science each and call it a day, but of course that wouldn't be fun gameplay.  So while every barrier created when going from a sandbox is technically artificial, the question to be answered is will each barrier create net fun.

I do agree though, that in that vein of thinking, it would reduce the net fun to only get to space once.  So my suggestion right now would be twofold. 

A: Save it for Tier 2, so you have to have made at least a few flights before unlocking it

and

B: Unlock it in stages so that you have reasons to do bigger launches later. For example you launch your first orbital construction yard but it can only construct ships of X size or weight, like the KSP 1 VAB upgrade system in career mode.  Then at Tier 3 or 4 a new larger shipyard would unlock.

Then since the part to make a bigger shipyard would be bigger than the previous shipyard could build you'd have to launch another mission from Kerbin, but it would be both later in the game so you would have more tech and it would be a new experience from the last time you launched a shipyard, AND real time would have passed since the last time you had to do a similar launch from surface so it would be novel again in two ways. I would consider that to be a significant net gain in fun as opposed to having to launch from surface  until tier 3-4-5 etc.

 

[Bej Kerman]

7 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

In my opinion the point of science mode isn't to cause grind through repeated tedium, it's to create a sense of goals and progression. I'll admit the line between those two can be pretty blurry, especially when going from a sandbox with no limitations, but I do think the distinction is worth making.

For example, if the goal was just to make the game last longer artificially they could just make each individual part cost 100 science each and call it a day, but of course that wouldn't be fun gameplay.  So while every barrier created when going from a sandbox is technically artificial, the question to be answered is will each barrier create net fun.

I do agree though, that in that vein of thinking, it would reduce the net fun to only get to space once.  So my suggestion right now would be twofold. 

A: Save it for Tier 2, so you have to have made at least a few flights before unlocking it

and

B: Unlock it in stages so that you have reasons to do bigger launches later. For example you launch your first orbital construction yard but it can only construct ships of X size or weight, like the KSP 1 VAB upgrade system in career mode.  Then at Tier 3 or 4 a new larger shipyard would unlock.

Then since the part to make a bigger shipyard would be bigger than the previous shipyard could build you'd have to launch another mission from Kerbin, but it would be both later in the game so you would have more tech and it would be a new experience from the last time you launched a shipyard, AND real time would have passed since the last time you had to do a similar launch from surface so it would be novel again in two ways. I would consider that to be a significant net gain in fun as opposed to having to launch from surface  until tier 3-4-5 etc.

 

I doubt that when we get OABs, tier 2 will bring you ore containers big enough to make the number of launches needed to supply them worthwhile. I also think it's incredibly unrealistic given that you won't have the tech to build something like the lunar gateway until tier 3 - let alone fabricating entire vessels. Would tier 5 (maybe 4) not be the most appropriate place to put it given all the earlier tiers put the Kerbals in the ballpark of the 20th/early-21st century? Tier 2 sounds like it should give you EVA construction at the very most.

[Scarecrow71]

31 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I doubt that when we get OABs, tier 2 will bring you ore containers big enough to make the number of launches needed to supply them worthwhile. I also think it's incredibly unrealistic given that you won't have the tech to build something like the lunar gateway until tier 3 - let alone fabricating entire vessels. Would tier 5 (maybe 4) not be the most appropriate place to put it given all the earlier tiers put the Kerbals in the ballpark of the 20th/early-21st century? Tier 2 sounds like it should give you EVA construction at the very most.

I'm thinking along the lines of:

• EVA repair (fixing drones and satellites) in Tier II
• ISRU in Tier III
• EVA construction in Tier IV
• Colonies and extra-Kerbin (surface) launchpads in Tier V
• Orbital launch sites in late Tier V (or in Tier VI)
• Interstellar tech in Tier VI

I could be very wrong here, but that seems like a decent progression based on how things are currently laid out.

[CiberX15]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I doubt that when we get OABs, tier 2 will bring you ore containers big enough to make the number of launches needed to supply them worthwhile. I also think it's incredibly unrealistic given that you won't have the tech to build something like the lunar gateway until tier 3 - let alone fabricating entire vessels. Would tier 5 (maybe 4) not be the most appropriate place to put it given all the earlier tiers put the Kerbals in the ballpark of the 20th/early-21st century? Tier 2 sounds like it should give you EVA construction at the very most.

So at Tier 2 I wouldn't even consider ore containers, or mining, or part fabrication, I agree that should come later down the line. What I'd like to have at Tier 2 is some form of OAB even if it's limited, and the ability to ship fuel and parts to it, so I could  do simple mun landings by having the fuel and parts shipped up to a orbital assembly building, build the craft in orbit, then use the orbital assembly station as a return point so I could run multiple missions with the same little pod and not have to worry about constantly needing to run manual refueling missions. 

If space based construction doesn't unlock intoill Tier V then at least half the stuff I'd want to use OABs for is already done.  Based on the current science Tiers, it's implied if not outright stated that Tier III is for getting to Duna and beyond, and Tier IV is for getting to the edge of the solar system. If I've unlocked Tier V and construction only after I've started reaching the edge of the solar system then the orbital construction that I'm so excited for would be completely useless for exploring the local solar system, because I would have already landed on most of those planets before even unlocking it. And that's a LOT of manual repetitive launches from Kerbin.

So far as Tiers lining up with actual reality, I don't think it's unrealistic to put assembly in space a bit earlier.  Again, if Tier III is tech for reaching Duna, that's tech we don't have in real life now. We're just building up to it and we're still some number of decades away from landing humans on Mars.  But we have the ability to ship parts and fuel into space, and the ability to assemble things up there. With the technology we have now we _could_ assemble a moon lander in orbit, and once built, fly multiple round trips between the Moon and the station.  There's just not a big drive to do so, and that's where Kerbals have us beat since they are all about landing on the Mun. 

Beyond all that though I just think it would be more fun. If people are enjoying making multiple launches all the way up to Tier V that's great, they can save their science for other things that are more important to them, but for my part I've done that a million times in KSP 1 and I want a new experience, which is why I was so excited for KSP 2 and the ability to short circuit that loop by building missions from an automatically resupplied space base.

Though KSP being KSP, if they are true to form, even if I'm not happy with the end result I suppose it's within my power to just mod the science tree to fit my preferences. 

 

[Bej Kerman]

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

So at Tier 2 I wouldn't even consider ore containers, or mining, or part fabrication, I agree that should come later down the line. What I'd like to have at Tier 2 is some form of OAB even if it's limited, and the ability to ship fuel and parts to it, so I could  do simple mun landings by having the fuel and parts shipped up to a orbital assembly building, build the craft in orbit, then use the orbital assembly station as a return point so I could run multiple missions with the same little pod and not have to worry about constantly needing to run manual refueling missions. 

Isn't that what docking ports are for?

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

So far as Tiers lining up with actual reality, I don't think it's unrealistic to put assembly in space a bit earlier.  Again, if Tier III is tech for reaching Duna, that's tech we don't have in real life now. We're just building up to it and we're still some number of decades away from landing humans on Mars.  But we have the ability to ship parts and fuel into space, and the ability to assemble things up there. With the technology we have now we _could_ assemble a moon lander in orbit, and once built, fly multiple round trips between the Moon and the station.  There's just not a big drive to do so, and that's where Kerbals have us beat since they are all about landing on the Mun. 

The ability to send parts up and join them in orbit has been a thing since KSP 0.18 - for the sake of discussion, I think it's best to draw a distinction between this and using generic resources for the complete fabrication of any desired parts we're expecting from KSP 2.

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

If space based construction doesn't unlock intoill Tier V then at least half the stuff I'd want to use OABs for is already done.  Based on the current science Tiers, it's implied if not outright stated that Tier III is for getting to Duna and beyond, and Tier IV is for getting to the edge of the solar system. If I've unlocked Tier V and construction only after I've started reaching the edge of the solar system then the orbital construction that I'm so excited for would be completely useless for exploring the local solar system, because I would have already landed on most of those planets before even unlocking it.

How does having landed on a planet before make OABs useless? Even if you have basic colonies on them by then, there is still a lot of progression to be done using OABs to help you.

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

And that's a LOT of manual repetitive launches from Kerbin.

I don't understand how that's a bad thing.

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

So far as Tiers lining up with actual reality, I don't think it's unrealistic to put assembly in space a bit earlier.  Again, if Tier III is tech for reaching Duna, that's tech we don't have in real life now. We're just building up to it and we're still some number of decades away from landing humans on Mars.  But we have the ability to ship parts and fuel into space, and the ability to assemble things up there. With the technology we have now we _could_ assemble a moon lander in orbit, and once built, fly multiple round trips between the Moon and the station.  There's just not a big drive to do so, and that's where Kerbals have us beat since they are all about landing on the Mun. 

Refer to my second line - this lines up more with docking ports than with OABs.

9 hours ago, CiberX15 said:

Beyond all that though I just think it would be more fun. If people are enjoying making multiple launches all the way up to Tier V that's great, they can save their science for other things that are more important to them, but for my part I've done that a million times in KSP 1 and I want a new experience, which is why I was so excited for KSP 2 and the ability to short circuit that loop by building missions from an automatically resupplied space base.

Sandbox mode is always there if you just want to try new stuff - I just think it's self defeating to suggest that progression mode should have less progression, and that if you put it all the way in tier 2 then that carrot and stick would go away.

 

[CiberX15]

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Isn't that what docking ports are for?

Kind of but being able to dock with an orbital fuel depot doesn't solve the tedium problem if I have to make constant manual flights up to refuel the the fuel depot.

 

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I don't understand how that's a bad thing.

Which is where I think the core difference is between us. I find manual launches from kerbin  extremely tedious.  It's a gameplay loop I've completed a thousand times and don't want to have to do a thousand more times to unlock the privilege of not having to do it anymore.

To me the whole draw of KSP 2 over KSP 1 is the promise of being able to automate away tedium. The game Factorio does this the best. Introduce an extremely tedious gameplay loop, then give the player automation that takes all of that tedium away. But if that automation is withheld until late game, then it's just an extremely tedious game.

 

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Sandbox mode is always there if you just want to try new stuff - I just think it's self defeating to suggest that progression mode should have less progression, and that if you put it all the way in tier 2 then that carrot and stick would go away.

 

Look maybe this is a case of having my cake and eating it too, but I don't want to just play sandbox. I find sandbox boring because there's no goals or progression.  So I'm not saying I want progression mode to have less progression. What I'm saying is I think having OAB's earlier in progression makes for a more fun progression arc. 

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

Kind of but being able to dock with an orbital fuel depot doesn't solve the tedium problem if I have to make constant manual flights up to refuel the the fuel depot.

16 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

To me the whole draw of KSP 2 over KSP 1 is the promise of being able to automate away tedium. The game Factorio does this the best. Introduce an extremely tedious gameplay loop, then give the player automation that takes all of that tedium away. But if that automation is withheld until late game, then it's just an extremely tedious game.

KSP 2 will automate this with delivery routes, so the tedium of milk runs is a moot point. Also IMO your Factorio analogy is way more appropriate for that than OABs.

3 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

Which is where I think the core difference is between us. I find manual launches from kerbin  extremely tedious.  It's a gameplay loop I've completed a thousand times and don't want to have to do a thousand more times to unlock the privilege of not having to do it anymore.

I can't speak for what you find entertaining, but I can't help but think that unlocking OABs might not be very fulfilling if they're being treated as a painkiller for a boring game than a tool to make it more exciting. Once you have OABs, launching from the surface will only be substituted with leaving orbit, then you'll find yourself doing that thousands of times over. Is the automation in Factorio not a reward for the players who found all the bits before fun?

[CiberX15]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP 2 will automate this with delivery routes, so the tedium of milk runs is a moot point. Also IMO your Factorio analogy is way more appropriate for that than OABs.

Ah well this might alleviate some of my concerns. I guess I always considered the delivery routes to be part of the OABs, but I guess there's no reason to assume that. Then I could at least build automated refueling stations in orbit.

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Once you have OABs, launching from the surface will only be substituted with leaving orbit, then you'll find yourself doing that thousands of times over. Is the automation in Factorio not a reward for the players who found all the bits before fun?

So my counter argument to this is that building the factory once / getting to a given orbit once is fun. Having to build that same factory or make that same trip more than 3 times stops being fun quickly. At least for me. Factorio solves this problem with templates and drones that can build the templates, so after a certain point, once you've built an optimal factory layout, you never have to build it again, you just stamp down a template where you want it and the drones build it for you.

So to me the OABs would serve that same role. I have to get an OAB to a given orbit, then get an automated delivery set up to it, but once that work is done I don't have to make that flight again. I use that base as the beachhead to launch the next mission to even further reaches of the system. Building each OAB in a new orbit would be like designing the optimal factory, and once in place it would act like the template, never requiring me to do that same task again because I put in the work to solve it with automation.

Our argument is really over _where_ in the game loop that tech unlocks though. Even in factorio the ability to build and deploy templates is kind of mid game content. However, in Factorio, the templates unlock right about the same time the factories you need to build start getting tedious to build. How much time does it take to place 3 buildings vs 30 etc. To me the basic launch to orbit in KSP starts out already taking a lot of time, and there doesn't seem to be a great way to speed that up that isn't unrealistic or un fun (You can use bigger engines and go faster but that's inefficient and also risks burning up your craft if you get going fast enough, so the mechanics basically reward you for going slower not faster), so to compensate I'm recommending moving the automation closer to the beginning of the game to compensate.

[Bej Kerman]

12 minutes ago, CiberX15 said:

To me the basic launch to orbit in KSP starts out already taking a lot of time, and there doesn't seem to be a great way to speed that up that isn't unrealistic or un fun (You can use bigger engines and go faster but that's inefficient and also risks burning up your craft if you get going fast enough, so the mechanics basically reward you for going slower not faster

Because the developers expect you to find it fun, which IMO is a completely fair expectation from a player who plays a game like this. As far as I can tell, you want OABs to use as a band-aid solution for a problem you see with the game, that one of its fundamental pillars - piloting spacecraft - gets boring extremely early in the tech tree. 

[uglydisease]

I guess I didn't really think of orbital construction as being so much about automation as much as increased ship capabilities.  In order to build the really big ships that will be required for interstellar you are really going to want to do orbital construction.

Even in ksp1, when I need a mothership I am reduced to the time consuming and some what impractical task of assembling subcomponents in orbit (this really sucks when I want to attach something radially and need mechjeb to get it to align perfectly).

Automation is definitely good for just getting fuel from point A to orbit B.

Anxious to see some designs for what ksp2 is planning for orbital vehicle construction, doesn't seem to be much information released yet.

[Lowi_Sace]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:39 PM, CiberX15 said:

So that’s exactly what I’m hoping for when base building is released, and it sounds like the plan. I’m just worried that that kind of base building and orbital construction and automated replies will end up locked behind Tier 3+ science unlocks, which to me would defeat the purpose. 

I do not really agree with that. The first three tiers are about discovering the kerbolar system and getting the tech up to support heavy lift vehicles for transporting significant amount of resources. In tier 4 it would be logical to have some first colony parts for construction  and resource gathering, so that in tier 5 players could construct huge colonies to start preparing for an interstellar flight.

On 12/23/2023 at 6:39 PM, CiberX15 said:

Especially as a veteran player who’s done all this before in KSP 1, I don’t know that I could stay interested long enough to unlock Tier 3 or higher science before the tedium got to me and I moved on to something else.

I understand that the repeating stuff for an experienced player can be boring. I also want to start playing with colonies right away (already did most of the early stuff). A solution for that could be to set science point gain per experiment very high in the beginning of a safe, get fast to tier 4+ and then set is back to normal. Than you can really start at that place really quickly. The colony and resource gathering gameplay is really what was missing form KSP1, so I am really looking forward to that. Hope we get some more information about it soon.

[kdaviper]

4 hours ago, Lowi_Sace said:

I do not really agree with that. The first three tiers are about discovering the kerbolar system and getting the tech up to support heavy lift vehicles for transporting significant amount of resources. In tier 4 it would be logical to have some first colony parts for construction  and resource gathering, so that in tier 5 players could construct huge colonies to start preparing for an interstellar flight.

I understand that the repeating stuff for an experienced player can be boring. I also want to start playing with colonies right away (already did most of the early stuff). A solution for that could be to set science point gain per experiment very high in the beginning of a safe, get fast to tier 4+ and then set is back to normal. Than you can really start at that place really quickly. The colony and resource gathering gameplay is really what was missing form KSP1, so I am really looking forward to that. Hope we get some more information about it soon.

If one is going to be bored unlocking lower tiers, just use the cheat menu to award the required science points.  Even after over 1k hours in ksp1 I still don't get bored launching rockets from the KSC. There are still chances that my rockets aren't quite as flight-worthy as I thought they were and I'll have to tweak them.  In a similar vein, there's still the teleport option in the cheat menu. 

It's only cheating if you are cheating yourself. There's no right or wrong way to play KSP.  Minecraft, for example has changed the "allow cheats" option to "allow commands" for a similar reason.