How Possible Through The Laws Of Physics Are Scifi Shapeshifter Races?

[Spacescifi]

Here are my thoughts: Whether they exist or not matters not to me. What matters to me is whether they even can.... through the laws of physics.

Turns out they are QUITE possible, but how they look and get around in their natural unshifted form may surprise people.

I honestly think a very large creature can compress itself to become small and dense, but a dense creature spreading itself out to become thin is far less likely.

What kind of creature am I thinking of? Some type of airborne floaty creature not unlike the alien from the movie Nope.

Normally it would fly around all huge relying on hot air balloon physics and combusting methan/oxygen in special organs to create the hot air effect, with other special organs using methane/oxygen combustion in the atmosphere for thrust.

Landing would involve leaking air so they shrink and lose buoyancy as they descend. Once landed the huge form would fold itself up together and become soft like jello before semi-hardening (still need muscle fibers to work) into whatever compressed shape it can.

My guess is that a creature the size of a blimp probably cannot compress itself to the size of a human and still have it's organs work OK, but may be able compress itself down to the size of a van or a room or something like that.

Thoughts?

 

Diet: Likely going to need a lot of energy for shapeshifting, and will probably only shapeshift only as a necessity during the day and not casually. The most nutrient dense form of food with protein for muscles is... well... meat.

So chances are shapeshifters could be omnivores.... but with a heavy reliance on meat.

Vulnerabilities: Fire, their insides, would be combustible, so they would be careful not to puncture their skin in compressed shifted form around a fire lest they risk spontaneous combustion death.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

41 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

airborne floaty creature not unlike the alien from the movie Nope

A frog, inflated with hydrogen. It can get dense, unless it pops.

43 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

in special organs

Bacteria, producing hydrogen in the frog intestines.

44 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Landing would involve leaking air

No problem.

[Spacescifi]

50 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

A frog, inflated with hydrogen. It can get dense, unless it pops.

Bacteria, producing hydrogen in the frog intestines.

No problem.

That's actually a cool idea to be frog based. Could catch prey by flying low and shooting out their tongue to snag prey into it's mouth.

In this way it would not have the digestion issues the Nope alien has, since this floaty frog alien shapeshifter would discriminate food and nonfood and be as intelligent as humans are.

[Shpaget]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

a very large creature can compress itself to become small and dense, but a dense creature spreading itself out to become thin is far less likely

What's the difference between the two?

Anyway, pufferfish.

[Spacescifi]

12 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

What's the difference between the two?

Anyway, pufferfish.

Well yeah.... but the pufferfish's organs are not exactly reaaranged as opposed to a true shapeshifter.

 

[KSK]

I think there's no distinction between a large creature compressing itself to become small and dense, and a dense creature spreading itself out to become thin.

I think this website might be helpful for calculating how much bioballoon you need to lift a given weight - actual calculator is at the bottom of the page. However, if you want some ballpark figures, then  assuming you're in Earth's atmosphere and your hot air is heated to 100 ^o C, it requires about 4 cubic metres of hot air to lift a kilogram of mass. Going the other way, it takes about 0.1 cubic metres, or 100 litres of hot air to lift 26g of mass - which is the mass of a slightly larger than average, common frog.

A 50kg human would therefore require 200 cubic metres of hot air. Assuming that hot air is contained within a spherical bag, that bag is going to have a 3.5 meter radius, give or take and a surface area of 150 square meters, give or take. I think that's a lot of membrane to manage.

I think that any worries about having the organs work OK are moot because if you want to fly like a hot air balloon, then you're going to be shaped like a hot air balloon, with all your organs, limbs etc. in as light a package as you can manage,  attached to a large, thin, gasbag.  At most that gasbag is going to have blood vessels and perhaps very fine tendons running through it to assist with repacking, but I honestly can't imagine it containing more complex organs.

I think the idea of having complex organs which can be stretched over a 3.5 meter sphere, and then squashed together into a jello-like mass, which then semi-hardens is... implausible.

I think that a protein heavy diet is possible, but a balanced diet consisting of some protein, plus a lot of energy dense nutrients such as fats or sugars would work equally well.

I think that you need to be less concerned about the laws of physics and more concerned with anatomy.

TL:DR,  I don't think this critter is going to work as a shapeshifter, unless you count caterpillars as shapeshifters because they turn into butterflies.

Edited December 24, 2023 by KSK

[darthgently]

Going beyond merely changing the dimensions of macro level organs, in theory a true cellular level shapeshifing could occur in the same way a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, a tadpole a frog.   But for this to happen in the time frame of minutes would require a huge spike in energy resources and would involve a very hot spike in waste heat from the chemical reactions involved.  Probably hot enough to cook meat.  So for hard sci fi would probably require days or weeks at minimum and a very large appetite or reserves depending on amount of change

Edited December 24, 2023 by darthgently

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, darthgently said:

Going beyond merely changing the dimensions of macro level organs, in theory a true cellular level shapeshifing could occur in the same way a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, a tadpole a frog.   But for this to happen in the time frame of minutes would require a huge spike in energy resources and would involve a very hot spike in waste heat from the chemical reactions involved.  Probably hot enough to cook meat.  So for hard sci fi would probably require days or weeks at minimum and a very large appetite or reserves depending on amount of change

Good point. So they would have to doing it in a weeks time could be a possibilty. Maybe a kind of hard cocoon underwater where it is shallow, so when they break out they can swim to the surface easily in their new form.

[Scotius]

On Earth the closest things we have to shapeshifters are octopuses and squids. Just watch some videos of those animals changing shape, colors and even texture of their bodies. It's simply unreal.

As for gasbag users, It could be an adaptation towards migratory lifestyle. Normally such animal would live on the ground, feeding, grooming and doing daily things with gasbag deflated and shrunk or folded on his back and sides. Perhaps even hidden safely under leathery or chitinous covers - like wings of a beetle. When it's time for migration - due to change of season, lack of food or for breeding, this animal could start gradually filling bag or bags with hydrogen, while metabolizing walking muscles for energy and to shed weight. Finally it would be able to take off - to either fly away using wings or similar structures, or simply float away with wind to hopefully reach its destination. Where it would again deflate the gasbags and start eating to rebuild leg muscles.

What could be the source of hydrogen filling the bags? Maybe bacteria in specialized organs. Or maybe electric organs similar to electric eel's, electrolising water into hydrogen and oxygen - just like electric eels do.

[kerbiloid]

On topic.

https://books.google.ru/books/about/The_Wind_Whales_of_Ishmael.html?id=-16uPwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Far future, the Earth is dry, the oceans have degraded into pools, the skies are populated by monstrous flying creatures, the surviving people are managing some of them, the main hero saves the world _{oops, a spoiler}.

Edited December 26, 2023 by kerbiloid

[Scotius]

Ah, "Dying Earth" genre. Where everything evolved, except humans - for some reasons.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, Scotius said:

Ah, "Dying Earth" genre. Where everything evolved, except humans - for some reasons.

The Dying Earth is about magic, while these ones are primitively technologically heroic.

They manage two airship creatures, one of them is propelled by the gas explosions.

[darthgently]

19 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

On topic.

https://books.google.ru/books/about/The_Wind_Whales_of_Ishmael.html?id=-16uPwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Far future, the Earth is dry, the oceans have degraded into pools, the skies are populated by monstrous flying creatures, the surviving people are managing some of them, the main hero saves the world _{oops, a spoiler}.

I imagined airborne  blimp-like whales I called "whaires" when in college.  I never should have talked about my idea at a crowded bar.  I demand licensing fees! Lol

[magnemoe]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:28 PM, darthgently said:

Going beyond merely changing the dimensions of macro level organs, in theory a true cellular level shapeshifing could occur in the same way a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, a tadpole a frog.   But for this to happen in the time frame of minutes would require a huge spike in energy resources and would involve a very hot spike in waste heat from the chemical reactions involved.  Probably hot enough to cook meat.  So for hard sci fi would probably require days or weeks at minimum and a very large appetite or reserves depending on amount of change

Agree, now you could do tricks like blowing your self up to look large even if you require time to get ready to fly.
But questionable if needed, if you want an low gravity and dense atmosphere winged flight became much easier so the dragons will eat you.