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[0.21.1] KAS v0.4.3 - Struts, pipes, part storage, containers, merged winches & more

KospY

By KospY
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Commander Gizmo

Commander Gizmo

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Posted (edited)

Ok, after some more testing with 0.4.1, I have a report to make:

First, THANKS! for making such an awesome update to such and essential mod!

I used the same test setup as for 0.4.0 (see my previous post), and now my ship no longer explodes instantly! It really seems very much improved in stability.

1) However, if I change focus to a ship about 1k away and then back I notice that most KAS items seem to float up for a second and then suddenly drop as physics are applied. They then return to their original positions. This even applies to containers attached to the ship via the container housing thing. When I connected a pipe port to the ground (why can you even do that?) and linked it to the rest of the ship, it did explode when the physics were applied after a switch away and back. A few more switches later and I did indeed have a total ship explosion. It would seem that this rather large variance when physics are first applied to a scene is the main culprit of the exploding. It'd be nice if there were a way to minimize the amount of variance before the physics return to normal.

2) There is no longer a way to plug in the connector of a winch to the hook on your back without first putting the hook down. This would seem to be very inconvenient when in space or otherwise have no where to put said hook.

3) What is the magnet on off when a kerbal is holding it for? Without a power source, you can't turn it on and off. However, when it is hooked to the winch and powered, the kerbal cannot turn it on and off anymore. Thus, he can only attach it to a surface, not magnetize it there. This is an issue because of the next problem listed.

4) Once an electromagnet is attached to something, you cannot remove it again without a kerbal. Therefore, the magnet feature is no longer useful once it is attached via EVA. Is the method of attachment not magnetism? If not, what? Perhaps we need an option to fire a large solenoid from the center of the magnet and release the kerbal's chewing gum that's holding it in place?

5) When getting lots of pipe ends (and I imagine other items) out of the containers, it is useful to simply keep clicking the button to get them out. They all fall on the ground, but it's much easier to get them than opening the box each time. However, this often causes the fourth or fifth item to go flying through to air at tremendous speed. While this may be a new way to reach orbit quickly, it does pose a problem if you wanted to use said part.

6) After ejecting a winch, the instant stretch option appears to make it longer rather than shorter. Perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of this option, but in previous versions it appeared to very quickly shorten the extended cable to only what was needed for whatever was attached. If I miss an attempted grapple, do I have to wait for the winch to wind back in each time? My winches are modified to 300m of cable, which can take some time to get in even at full throttle.

7) A fully retracted winch with an electromagnet plugged in does not pull the connector and hook up and lock in place. Instead, they just hang from the end as if it is slightly extended. Is this intended behavior?

Edited by Commander Gizmo
Forgot #7
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RabidMonkey

RabidMonkey

Posted
Posted

After some testing and a tentative rebuilding of my Kethane refinery, I have yet to explode. Thanks for the quick fix, KospY! Now I just have to deal with massive part counts because I tend to make things overly elaborate for no good reason. :D

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Darknighthb

Darknighthb

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;.I know I should post on Github for issues but I don't have an account. I followed your instructions on how to install the mod, unzip it into the gamedata folder, which I did. I have the parts but if i try and click on them, it won't allow me to link or attach them. When a parts on my kerbals back, it seems to clip him. When I drop a box me and the box go flying. I'm guessing it must be a mod compatibility issue. Reading the thread, i haven't seen many people with the same issue.;.;

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KospY

KospY

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ok I still don't get what the "hook support" is for... :(

It's for mounting a magnet in a fixed position. Sure it doesn't really usefull right now, because magnet is the only usefull hook to attach.(and you can directly attach the magnet to any part in the editor)

However, I'm plan to add a "docking" hook later so that will be possible to exchange hook easly. It can be usefull as modular end effector (think about constellation mission)

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but...When I grab a part from a container with a kerbal in EVA, I have to drop the part, grab the connector, then attach it to the part. When I try to grab the completed part, it bugs out and goes flying off

What part are you talking about ? the magnet ?

Since KospY posted 0.4 update I see a large amount of 'bug' reports about quirks that have been around for the last few KSP versions....hope I can help a bit =)

Couple things Id like to stress first off though:

This is NOT a 100% fix for all KAS related issues, but it does help

KAS (or any other mod that adds such complex functionality) is NEVER gonna work 100% right 100% of the time...and its not always bugs within the mod. Sometimes is bugs within KSP, or not a bug at all but rather just how the physics engine of the game figures certain things at times.

That having been said here we go!

It seems to me that alot of KAS users are only looking at the parts, and ignoring the base game mechanics. As far as core game mechanics goes there is only one way to dock 2 craft together...and thats via an EmptyGameObject named to act as a 'docking node'. No matter what part you put it in, no matter how the part works, no matter the variables, its still just a docking node.

Keep this in mind when making winch/pipe/strut connections:

4x4k8UZ.png

This is how you want to try and make connections if at all possible. Note the 2 pipe connectors are (almost =P) facing each other....like you would have to face docking ports.

EYwj5v9.png

This connection still works...but your gonna see a higher rate of bug instances. This is also gonna cause a higher rate of physics AHHHS (those times when game physics kick in with less than desirable results)!!

The Kracken also told me himself that he prefers to eat off center connectors more than any other....so there ya go.

Like I said, this is not by any means a fix or 100% cure for anything...but it does help alot (esp with exploding craft on reload).

Hope this helps =)

Interesting, however I'm not sure that part orientation change something (at least I do not noticed it ?). I also used my own implementation for docking parts so I do not use docking node at all.

However, about "bugs" related to the way KSP handle things, I found myself that is really important that the root part of all connected parts are strongly FIXED and DO NOT MOVE when using pipes. The game rebuild the ship from this root part, so if you construct a ground base and it get inclined for what ever reason, using warp or save/load will reset parts position of the ship and you will have good chance that opposed parts get below the ground or in the air !!

Ok, after some more testing with 0.4.1, I have a report to make:

First, THANKS! for making such an awesome update to such and essential mod!

I used the same test setup as for 0.4.0 (see my previous post), and now my ship no longer explodes instantly! It really seems very much improved in stability.

1) However, if I change focus to a ship about 1k away and then back I notice that most KAS items seem to float up for a second and then suddenly drop as physics are applied. They then return to their original positions. This even applies to containers attached to the ship via the container housing thing. When I connected a pipe port to the ground (why can you even do that?) and linked it to the rest of the ship, it did explode when the physics were applied after a switch away and back. A few more switches later and I did indeed have a total ship explosion. It would seem that this rather large variance when physics are first applied to a scene is the main culprit of the exploding. It'd be nice if there were a way to minimize the amount of variance before the physics return to normal.

2) There is no longer a way to plug in the connector of a winch to the hook on your back without first putting the hook down. This would seem to be very inconvenient when in space or otherwise have no where to put said hook.

3) What is the magnet on off when a kerbal is holding it for? Without a power source, you can't turn it on and off. However, when it is hooked to the winch and powered, the kerbal cannot turn it on and off anymore. Thus, he can only attach it to a surface, not magnetize it there. This is an issue because of the next problem listed.

4) Once an electromagnet is attached to something, you cannot remove it again without a kerbal. Therefore, the magnet feature is no longer useful once it is attached via EVA. Is the method of attachment not magnetism? If not, what? Perhaps we need an option to fire a large solenoid from the center of the magnet and release the kerbal's chewing gum that's holding it in place?

5) When getting lots of pipe ends (and I imagine other items) out of the containers, it is useful to simply keep clicking the button to get them out. They all fall on the ground, but it's much easier to get them than opening the box each time. However, this often causes the fourth or fifth item to go flying through to air at tremendous speed. While this may be a new way to reach orbit quickly, it does pose a problem if you wanted to use said part.

6) After ejecting a winch, the instant stretch option appears to make it longer rather than shorter. Perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of this option, but in previous versions it appeared to very quickly shorten the extended cable to only what was needed for whatever was attached. If I miss an attempted grapple, do I have to wait for the winch to wind back in each time? My winches are modified to 300m of cable, which can take some time to get in even at full throttle.

7) A fully retracted winch with an electromagnet plugged in does not pull the connector and hook up and lock in place. Instead, they just hang from the end as if it is slightly extended. Is this intended behavior?

Thanks a lot for this well explained issues list, I added them to Github : https://github.com/KospY/KAS/issues?state=open

I will take a look at this for the next version.

Looking at source code, I see KASModuleTimedBomb.cs ... Why do I suspect Kospy's working on detpacks?

As I talked before in the thread, I will need to stop working on KAS mid-october for at least 15 months. (but I will keep an eye on the mod) So I'm currently adding to the KAS plugin all the remaining current module I worked on, even if they are not used. Majiir are currently taking over the project so it will be able to finish up the work and find someone for making models for this modules.

If you look closely to the code, their is also another module that is not used at all and everyone missed :) Also, I will add the last one in the next update.

About jetpack, well I'm not at ease with engine but I'm pretty sure this is possible as I added an option in the cfg for a "physic" grab.

I don't think people noticed it but one part has this option enabled :

GOaK8nX.jpg

Again, I missing model. One day a smaller parachute suited for Kerbal will be nice :)

(Meanwhile, It's possible to copy the part config and make it smaller with the rescale parameter)

Edited by KospY
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katateochi

katateochi

Posted
Posted

Wow, this awesome mod has just got even more awesome!!! KospY you are a Genius!! I've just updated from 3.1 to 4.1 and I'm loving it! The ability to pack spare parts and position them in EVA is just fantastic. I've only done a quick test with the pipes but they too look fab, can't wait to add those into my base designs. This has always been such a useful mod and it just keeps getting better

Only noticed one problem but as no one else seems to have mentioned it, maybe its me (or my pc!). I can't right click to grab the connector (when in EVA) on just the Horizontal Stack Winch anymore, but I can right click and grab the connector on the other three types. If I switch to the craft and release the winch then the EVA Kerbal can pick it up. Also the Horizontal Stack Winch does not appear in the GUI. I just stuck 1 of each winch type on a simple test craft, but only 3 winches showed up in the GUI. I've tried this out in a fresh stock install with just KAS4.1 installed and the problem remains.

Craft Upgrade Script

If your like me and use this mod a lot, updating from v3 to v4 causes a lot of craft to become invalid. Last night when I decided to update I realised that 28 of my craft needed updating so I wrote a script to make things a little less painful. It goes through the craft files and finds the (now removed) KAS.Connector1 parts, looks at what they are connected to and moves that part to be directly attached to the winch and then removes the connector part.

So where it used to be [winch]-[connector]-[thing] it is now just [winch]-[thing].

It also replaces KAS.CPort3 (the old movable port) with KAS.CPort1 and replaces the deprecated HookBay with the new containerBay. The HookBay to containerBay replace is not ideal, but it does allow the craft to load in the VAB/SPH so you can sort it out.

After running the script all my KAS3.1 craft loaded up in the VAB/SPH with KAS4 installed and everything seems happy. Sadly I've not managed to write something that can do the same operation on the persistent.sfs.

It's a simple Ruby script and I've compiled it into an .exe so anyone can run it. If you want to use it download it here, put it in a campaign folder (ie KSP/saves/default/) and run it (you have to do each campaign in turn). If you want to see the source code I've posted it here.

It worked out fine for me, but I would recommend taking a backup of your craft before running it, just in case! Hope this is helpful!!

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zekew11

zekew11

Posted
Posted

So if I spent a few hours [read: eight] base building in v4.0 only to have the whole thing spectacularly explode on a quick load, and failed at editing the save file to resolve the issue, I should be okay to start re-building (hacks used, until I get to where I had been) in V 4.1?

don't get me wrong; I adore this mod and fully understand the presence of bugs... I just would quite like to know if i'm safe to start building yet or if I need to wait for a more stable release.

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smurphy34

smurphy34

Posted
Posted

Love this mod, thank you for making it.

But..., I think I have a small issue to report.

The Horizontal stack winch cable connection node seems to be inside the part where the other 3 have it on the surface.

JiYkfHO.jpg

Thanks for looking at this.

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greg12

greg12

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Posted

smurphy34 Its not a bug or anything. Delete the previous KAS from GameData than install the latest one. The new 4.1 doson`t need the connector thingy for the winch. Its built in from now. :)

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smurphy34

smurphy34

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smurphy34 Its not a bug or anything. Delete the previous KAS from GameData than install the latest one. The new 4.1 doson`t need the connector thingy for the winch. Its built in from now. :)

This is a clean install, no 3.1 remnants.

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Mihara

Mihara

Posted
Posted

isNAcTC.png

That base's particular upgrade didn't go so smoothly, a note for those who attempt to do that: If you have a winch that is misbehaving for whatever reason, it might not tear off cleanly. :)

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123nick

123nick

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Posted

you should make more things allowed in containers: the small grey 0.5 meter fueltank, torodial fueltank, LV-909 maybe?, seperatrons, junior docking port,the small modular strut piece would be awesome too. also i noticed a bug: i built a rover out of parts from a container in EVA, but the solar panels are not charging the battery.

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Montieth

Montieth

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Posted

I like the KAS winches but I seem to feel that they're best used on a surface and NOT in orbit. The tension forces when slack is taken up or connections made can be problematic on a surface but catastrophic in microgravity.

I'd suggest that for orbital refueling, good old hard docking is the best way.

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Darknighthb

Darknighthb

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Posted

I know I should post on Github for issues but I don't have an account. I followed your instructions on how to install the mod, unzip it into the gamedata folder, which I did. I have the parts but if i try and click on them, it won't allow me to link or attach them. When a parts on my kerbals back, it seems to clip him. When I drop a box me and the box go flying. I'm guessing it must be a mod compatibility issue. Reading the thread, i haven't seen many people with the same issue. I don't have the old version on, double checked that. This mod worked before but it did start to not allow me to attach things anymore but I didn't update it. Here's a list of my currently installed mods:

American Pack

ATV

B9 Aerospace

Damned Robotics

Exsurgent Engineering

FASA Gemini and Mercury Pack

Firespitter

Fustek Station Parts 3 and 2

Fustek Munox

HOME

Hermes Deep Space Probe

ISS Space Station Construction Pack

KAS

Keramzit

Kethane

KineTechAnimation

KOSMOS

LazTek Space X Pack

MEM

Spherical Fuel Tanks

Nova Punch

Chatter

Romfarer Lazor

Soviet Pack

N1 Rocket

Vostok

Universe Replacer

Kerbal Interstellar

Zeus Space Telescope

Infernal Robotics

Mech Jeb 2

Be very please if you could look into this incase anyone else has the same problem.

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KospY

KospY

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Ok, after some more testing with 0.4.1, I have a report to make:

6) After ejecting a winch, the instant stretch option appears to make it longer rather than shorter. Perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of this option, but in previous versions it appeared to very quickly shorten the extended cable to only what was needed for whatever was attached. If I miss an attempted grapple, do I have to wait for the winch to wind back in each time? My winches are modified to 300m of cable, which can take some time to get in even at full throttle.

7) A fully retracted winch with an electromagnet plugged in does not pull the connector and hook up and lock in place. Instead, they just hang from the end as if it is slightly extended. Is this intended behavior?

About this two issues, I tested in game and they are working fine. The instant stretch option only set the cable lenght to the current distance between winch and connector. So if you eject the grapple, and it go the maximum distance, (300m for you), using it will change nothing. However, it will be usefull if for exemple you eject the grapple and it collide with something near, so the distance will be lower than the cable lenght. (ejecting set the cable lenght to the maximum allowed)

And for the magnet, I do not have this problem. If I fully retract a winch with a magnet attached it will lock. Maybe you have a heavy load attached so the cable can't retract as the distance between connector and winch are longer than 0.08 (default value of the lockMinDist parameter)

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Mihara

Mihara

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Ok, I am pretty sure I have stepped on a bug here.

I am debugging a ship that contains multiple winches with attached elements, using lots of mods, yadda, yadda. Hyperedited it to Duna to see if it can land. That worked. Took off and got it in orbit, working out if it still has enough fuel for a transfer burn, time warp starts.

I decide I don't like this burn and kill the maneuver node, stop the timewarp, and the ship immediately explodes -- or to be more precise, all the things pre-attached to winches suffer structural failures on their connections to winches, and then fly off at high speeds, disintegrating the ship.

And then the game crashes, and it's not an out of memory error, because the memory use in error.log is listed at just 68%.

The logs are interesting.


...first I see lots and lots of 

[KAS] Warning ! ActiveVessel.heightFromTerrain are negative (-1) do not save now (vessel spawning underground bug) and please report this message to KospY on the KAS thread

...which is silly because I am in space, and then...

NullReferenceException
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.GameObject:get_transform ()

  at KAS_Tube.UpdateTube () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at KAS_Tube.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

There's a lot more interesting messages in there, full logs, craft file, etc, sent by PM.

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KospY

KospY

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Ok, I am pretty sure I have stepped on a bug here.

I am debugging a ship that contains multiple winches with attached elements, using lots of mods, yadda, yadda. Hyperedited it to Duna to see if it can land. That worked. Took off and got it in orbit, working out if it still has enough fuel for a transfer burn, time warp starts.

I decide I don't like this burn and kill the maneuver node, stop the timewarp, and the ship immediately explodes -- or to be more precise, all the things pre-attached to winches suffer structural failures on their connections to winches, and then fly off at high speeds, disintegrating the ship.

And then the game crashes, and it's not an out of memory error, because the memory use in error.log is listed at just 68%.

The logs are interesting.


...first I see lots and lots of 

[KAS] Warning ! ActiveVessel.heightFromTerrain are negative (-1) do not save now (vessel spawning underground bug) and please report this message to KospY on the KAS thread

...which is silly because I am in space, and then...

NullReferenceException
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.GameObject:get_transform ()

  at KAS_Tube.UpdateTube () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at KAS_Tube.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

There's a lot more interesting messages in there, full logs, craft file, etc, sent by PM.

In fact the warning message must ignored when vessel are not landed. It is an mistake of mine, will be fixed in next version.

About your problem, can you reproduce it or this happen randomly ?

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Mihara

Mihara

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Posted (edited)
In fact the warning message must ignored when vessel are not landed. It is an mistake of mine, will be fixed in next version.

About your problem, can you reproduce it or this happen randomly ?

...Yep, it's repeatable, and I think I know the trigger now.

I am in the habit of using numpad "." key to bring up and hide the navball while in the map view.

KAS since 0.4 also uses this key to eject winches. Ejecting winches while in orbit, starting the timewarp, and then stopping it, causes the vessel to disintegrate.

P.S. I also suspect that something interesting happens when I press "." while in time warp, but that will have to wait a bit until I have an opportunity to test this again.

Edited by Mihara
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