To all the people that constantly whine "CHEATURRR" on KSP Youtube videos...

[Frostiken]

I don't like mechjeb, I don't. People claim "Well Apollo 11 used autopilot" Yes it did, but on a computer as powerful as a calculator not as powerful as a high end PC.

You can do that math on a computer made of redstone in Minecraft. Math is all that was needed, and math is easy for a computer.

[NeoMorph]

I've decided that whenever anyone says "Well, Apollo had to be landed manually without the computer" I will just say "1202 error - P00 and ACCEPT".

Edited May 13, 2013 by NeoMorph

[Netris]

We're all forgetting the KSP is a game, not a NASA Management Tycoon, and hence you can play it however you want. You don't have to replicate was NASA does with space missions.

But I can if I want. If I want to play KSP as NASA Management Tycoon, what is bad ? I mean, it frustrate me when my orbit is 101x98. MechJeb is a wonderfull tool and do most of the thing by itself and often pretty good. If the only things I do when I play KSP is hitting "engage autopilot", press spacebar and look to everything happening but still enjoying, what is bad ? Some people want to play KSP as a hard rocket piloting simulator, other people play it as a rocket/plane building game and other as a god-view space program. None of them is wrong. It's just a different way to see different faces of a same game.

[Temstar]

B Some people want to play KSP as a hard rocket piloting simulator, other people play it as a rocket/plane building game and other as a god-view space program. None of them is wrong. It's just a different way to see different faces of a same game.

But wouldn't you agree that if they both managed to do precision landing on the Mun, the achievement between the two are not comparable?

[Specialist290]

But wouldn't you agree that if they both managed to do precision landing on the Mun, the achievement between the two are not comparable?

For whom does the comparison matter in the first place?

[Temstar]

For whom does the comparison matter in the first place?

Let's say... the whole Challenges sub forum?

Shouldn't someone feel more of an accomplishment for something something "the hard way" because it was harder?

[Flixxbeatz]

Srsly nobody -snip- cares about how good you are without those mods, and how everyone else should play the game the way you want them to.

This is a serious pet peeve of mine. If you are against using mods and going all stock that is absolutely fine, but stop trying to force your ways on others, especially calling them names, "bad" players and/or cheater.

PREACH!

Please tell that to all the PURISTS that you'll encounter here or at youtube.

Edited May 13, 2013 by KasperVld

[Feldynn]

Sometimes I think the only reason MechJeb and other mods may be viewed by some / many / a few as "cheating" is because they are mods.

If there was say a Unified Navigation, Docking, Inter-planetary Exploration System computer built into the game for use on rockets / vehicles (much like the SAS / ASAS modules) that performed tasks automatically it might be much less of an issue because it would be "part of the game" rather than an external mod.

Of course there would always be the "hardcore" fringe out there that would consider anything automatic as cheating even if it is a valid function built into the game, but there's not much you can do about them.

For what it's worth I don't have a problem with any mods like that, I may not use them myself but crikey it's a space game so I'd EXPECT there to be some sort of autopilot and navigation computer systems somewhere. I remember back in the days of the Elite series and other games where buying NAV / Docking computers were often the first things you'd want to buy.

[White Owl]

I honestly don't recall ever being called a cheater for all the mods in my Youtube vids...

Most of the comments received are fairly intelligent too. I love it when viewers helpfully suggest solutions to all the various problems I create.

[Specialist290]

Let's say... the whole Challenges sub forum?

If the person who submits a challenge wants to allow or disallow certain mods, that's their prerogative.

Shouldn't someone feel more of an accomplishment for something something "the hard way" because it was harder?

"Harder" does not necessarily mean "better." It's harder to hit a target at 200 meters with a smoothbore musket than with an M16 assault rifle, but you don't exactly see soldiers rushing out onto the battlefield with Brown Besses to prove a point. If I were to see someone climb up the side of a building using the window ledges as handholds instead of going inside and using the stairs, I admit I'd be quite impressed with the feat, but I'd also think that the only sane explanation for such a thing is that he's trying to rob the place.

Before we proceed, I want to make one thing perfectly clear: I don't use MechJeb. I make it a point of pride, actually. I'm glad that I can do everything that I've done so far manually. But I don't feel any sort of need to make myself feel better by telling the people who do use it "YOUR AUTOPILOT IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD" every time the forsaken subject is brought up here.

[Canopus]

I honestly don't recall ever being called a cheater for all the mods in my Youtube vids...

Most of the comments received are fairly intelligent too. I love it when viewers helpfully suggest solutions to all the various problems I create.

Thats because your channel is more of a special tip and not as popular as Scott Manley i think.( Don't get me wrong i love your Videos:)) Edited May 13, 2013 by Canopus

[Netris]

But wouldn't you agree that if they both managed to do precision landing on the Mun, the achievement between the two are not comparable?

Let's say it an other way. I use MJ on every of my rocket, I let it do everything from take off to landing to docking. All I want when I play KSP is my space program to look credible. I don't build ugly rockets that look silly because it's not what I want my game to look. I don't care if I make a precision landing on the moon without MJ, neither a docking or a perfectly circular orbit. That's the way how I enjoy the game, I want everything to be smooth, I don't want to lose my nerve because I've tried to land on the Mun for the 4th time and still don't manage to do it without breaking a leg. I let MJ do that because that's the way I have fun. Maybe you can't understand this, you have your own way of playing the game but you have to understand that people could not find funny what you find funny. If I land my Mun mission 10km away from the site I've chosen to, it won't be fun for me. I may have an OCD, but that's the way I enjoy the game, designing plausible rockets/shuttles, running plausible missions and having a perfect space program. You can't argue with the way I enjoy my game. Your definition of an achievement in the game is not the same as mine. And because of that, you can't say I'm a bad player or I chose the easy way. We're just not playing the game for the same reason.

[rakutenshi]

I use mechjeb because Squad hasn't implemented the part where I can actually let the kerbals themselves use their skills and training to fly the rockets that I design for them to die in.. errm.. I mean fly .. drive.. steer.. whatever.

If you want to go kohlrabis to the wall and fly it by hand with a whetted thumb stuck out the window to help judge your speed, that's all well and good.

I build rockets. I plan missions. My kerbals fly them. I stay safe back at mission control and put on an appropriately bereaved face when another mission explodes horribly. Then move on to the next.

[Tollazor]

People who shun people that use MechJeb and whatnot are a bit silly.

I for one don't have the time to devote to playing this game without Mechjeb doing a bit of Auto-pilot work. Also the learning curve to doing some things is pretty steep and can seriously dampen the enthusiasm to do fun stuff in the game. I used MechJeb to learn how to do some maneuvers and learn to play the game overall, because if you haven't noticed there is very little in the way of solid tutorials for the game.

Sure there is a sense of accomplishment for launching, orbiting, intercepting and docking all with your own controls and calculations, however there is also accomplishment for doing far more in the game of which MechJeb can seriously increase the speed of attaining at the cost of a slight loss of accomplishment.

I can do simple maths in my head, I can do more complex maths with paper. However, I can do both much, much, much faster using computers, really how is MechJeb any different to using a calculator. To further expand on that, the so called 'purists' who shun MechJeb better not use a calculator for any of their calculations as that isn't pure..

[Reavermyst]

I honestly don't recall ever being called a cheater for all the mods in my Youtube vids...

Most of the comments received are fairly intelligent too. I love it when viewers helpfully suggest solutions to all the various problems I create.

You must have an anti-purist Kraken on standby! Can I have one!?

[magnemoe]

I don't like mechjeb, I don't. People claim "Well Apollo 11 used autopilot" Yes it did, but on a computer as powerful as a calculator not as powerful as a high end PC. Also a few Apollo missions had to turn off autopilot near landing. But my point is the fun in KSP is piloting. I don't care how tedious it gets. I think my dislike of mechjeb comes from when it ruined my first mun landing. I made a basic rocket and told it to go there and it was done. No fun or heart pounding landings like the real thing. I NEVER whine cheater but i don't care if people do.

Main difference was that the user interface was more primitive. The math is not so hard and doable on an old programmable calculator.

I might agree that mechjeb can cheat as it can use the inn game values, that is adjust the burn so PE is 100 km, then check in game if PE is 100 or adjust.

On the other hand mechjeb landing in atmosphere has an error of around 300 meter, pretty much the error of icbm who get no external imput during flight.

And yes the Apollo 11 landing problem is common in KSP to, if you come down on top of the base or land in an steep incline you have to abort and change landing position.

On the other hand, if you watched Apollo 13, they did not burn manually as an airplane taking off, they entered the burn parameters and press an button.

Yes this might be something as simple as "burn at standard trust for 7 seconds", might be some other parameters to but probably related to direction.

[Commander Zoom]

For whom does the comparison matter in the first place?

In my honest experience:

The person who did it;

Maybe... ten people, at most, if you post/brag about it.

That's it.

No one else cares.

No one.

EDIT: In fairness, and full disclosure, that's also about the same number of people who I expect to read, think about, and/or care about this post. But that's enough for me.

With very few exceptions, we all think about ourselves, our successes, our failures, etc etc far more than anyone else thinks about us.

We all walk around looking at the mirrors we wear and fretting that everyone else will see what we see there, hardly ever looking up to notice that no one is looking at us but at their own mirror.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Commander Zoom

[Netris]

I can do simple maths in my head, I can do more complex maths with paper. However, I can do both much, much, much faster using computers, really how is MechJeb any different to using a calculator.

I can't do the math even on a paper. My math knowledge stops after equations with 2 unknows ^^ I've learnt something after that but have never understood it and don't even remember it. Even a 2 unknows equation is a challenge for me and I don't want to spend a week on resolving it while MJ can do it in a fraction of a second

[Peenvogel]

I stopped paying attention to comments like these ever since I'm active on the internet... which is a long time. I paid for the game, no one's gonna tell me what I can or can't do with it in terms of playing. Think about: How would you react if a total stranger told you, you are the worst driver in the world and started ranting about how you should use your car... what would you do? You would tell him to back off and mind his own business... same applies here.

[nats]

I just want the arguments to stop.

Well for one thing it takes two to argue. And for the second thing who cares? Just let them get on with it.

I don't actually believe many people pay that much attention to Youtube comments. I don't. Who cares what complete strangers are doing for their own entertainment on an impersonal site like YouTube. And who cares if people think you are cheating in a game or not.

I think you lot are being far too sensiitive. Leave them too it and get on with the more important things in life for goodness sake.

[Temstar]

Let's say it an other way. I use MJ on every of my rocket, I let it do everything from take off to landing to docking. All I want when I play KSP is my space program to look credible. I don't build ugly rockets that look silly because it's not what I want my game to look. I don't care if I make a precision landing on the moon without MJ, neither a docking or a perfectly circular orbit. That's the way how I enjoy the game, I want everything to be smooth, I don't want to lose my nerve because I've tried to land on the Mun for the 4th time and still don't manage to do it without breaking a leg. I let MJ do that because that's the way I have fun. Maybe you can't understand this, you have your own way of playing the game but you have to understand that people could not find funny what you find funny. If I land my Mun mission 10km away from the site I've chosen to, it won't be fun for me. I may have an OCD, but that's the way I enjoy the game, designing plausible rockets/shuttles, running plausible missions and having a perfect space program. You can't argue with the way I enjoy my game. Your definition of an achievement in the game is not the same as mine. And because of that, you can't say I'm a bad player or I chose the easy way. We're just not playing the game for the same reason.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having fun or otherwise with MJ. No one can tell you how you can have your own fun or you're playing the game wrong.

However something can be said of player's piloting skill. If player A build a ship and fly it to a precision landing on the Mun with the aid of MechJeb and player B did the same but with a stock ship, chances are if we switch their seats Player B can land Player A's ship (and probably without turning on the installed MJ) while player A would probably struggle with the stock ship. Whatever quality player B has over A, be it "mad skillz" or "gift" or whatever, it's a positive quality and someone possessing them is plain better than someone who doesn't.

[Netris]

I stopped paying attention to comments like these ever since I'm active on the internet... which is a long time. I paid for the game, no one's gonna tell me what I can or can't do with it in terms of playing. Think about: How would you react if a total stranger told you, you are the worst driver in the world and started ranting about how you should use your car... what would you do? You would tell him to back off and mind his own business... same applies here.

If he explains why I should not brake that hard because it's bad for the brakes, why it's bad for the engine to drive at 50 km/h on the 1st gear, I'm ready to let him talk ^^

[Tristavius]

I think the difference is, there probably are a lot of us who look down on the use of things like MechJeb, but the adult thing is to understand that this is a game people have paid their hard earned money for and have a right to enjoy however they please.

I am very against mods like MechJeb, and do usually stop reading a 'look what I did' thread the second I see a MechJeb window open, but I would never, ever give the person abuse for it. It's not for me, but they can do as they please. Please note, I am only even talking about it here as this is a thread discussing this issue before anyone says anything

In short: let people play how they want and if you want to feel superior for doing things yourself, well, go right ahead! Just don't subject everyone else to it

[Netris]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having fun or otherwise with MJ. No one can tell you how you can have your own fun or you're playing the game wrong.

However something can be said of player's piloting skill. If player A build a ship and fly it to a precision landing on the Mun with the aid of MechJeb and player B did the same but with a stock ship, chances are if we switch their seats Player B can land Player A's ship (and probably without turning on the installed MJ) while player A would probably struggle with the stock ship. Whatever quality player B has over A, be it "mad skillz" or "gift" or whatever, it's a positive quality and someone possessing them is plain better than someone who doesn't.

So you're telling me you're better than me because you can do a pin point landing on the Mun without MJ ?! Nobody cares if you can do that. It won't get you a job or a medal.

[Felsmak]

I've pretty much mastered the game, so I don't need MechJeb. However, I think it's stupid to bash those who do use it and no one should tell anyone how they should or shouldn't play their copy of the game, because that's no one else's business but their own.