The SSTO Revisited

[mcirish3]

I would like to invite challenge people to revisit the SSTO challenge. what is different? Well I can find plenty of SSTo plane but almost never run into SSTO Rockets (non lifting surface craft)

Here is the Challenge:

Create a SSTO that can achieve a 200 km +- 10 km orbit and has enough fuel left to land again at KSP.

Rules:

ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT EXCEPTION NO DECOUPLERS OR WINGS OR CONTROL SURFACES ALLOWED.

VERSION .18.0 or better required.

Mods allowed as long as they are consistent with the fuel usages masses and thrusts used by the vanilla parts. Mechjeb allowed. Parts that collect telemetry are also allowed (actually bonus for doing so). Parts that a reasonable person would consider cheating beyond mechjeb are excluded.

To qualify you must show rocket on launch pad, in orbit, map view and F3 menu. For additional points screeshots with F3 menu displayed also necessary.

Objective points:

By the skin of your teeth: achieve a 190 km orbit. 1000 pts (must get this award to qualify for further bonuses)

I AM JEB: achieve 190 km orbit without mechjeb: +100

Totally FLUID: Achieve a 190 km orbit without the use of boosters: +200 pts

Totally LAVA: Achieve a 190 km orbit without the use of Jet Engines: +200 pts

Doing what is asked: Achieve a 200 km orbit +100 pts

Above and beyond: 210+ km orbit: +200 pts

Doing a little extra: have extra things like lights, telemetry mods, science instruments etc.:+50 pts

Coming full circle: Land within 10km of KSP +100 pts

I know how to build them: Land within 10km of KSP without any damage to your craft: +100 pts

Ya, I am, a rocket scientist!: Land safely without parachutes: +300

Robinhood of arrow space: Land back on the launch pad. +500

Goliath on line! Get all the above achievements: +10,000

I also would love it if you shared your craft files with all of us. But this will have no bearing on points achieved.

Leader Board:

#1 Nao 12,850 PTS Congrats. Amazing job, and kudos for loving starcraft also.

2 Tavert: 2250 PTS

3 robertordf 2250 PTS

4 Lump: 2100 PTS

5 rodion_herrera 2050 PTS

6 Mcirish3: 1750 PTS

Edited June 2, 2013 by mcirish3
New leader boad

[tavert]

I didn't make this rocket for this challenge, so I didn't stop at 190 km (or take a screenshot of the flight log). But I like showing it off: I went all the way to the Mun and back to KSC with no damage. In a single stage. With no jets. http://imgur.com/a/uA4c5#0

These screenshots are from a couple weeks ago so 0.19, no flags. And the 1-man lander can would've reduced the weight a bit, for a better fuel margin.

[mcirish3]

I didn't make this rocket for this challenge, so I didn't stop at 190 km (or take a screenshot of the flight log). But I like showing it off: I went all the way to the Mun and back to KSC with no damage. In a single stage. With no jets. http://imgur.com/a/uA4c5#0

These screenshots are from a couple weeks ago so 0.19, no flags. And the 1-man lander can would've reduced the weight a bit, for a better fuel margin.

Impressive and imaginative craft. You posted before I could edit the rules to no boosters or jet engines so to be fair I simply added bonuses for not using them, hope you don't mind. for now you are # 1.

[1096bimu]

What is the point if no wings or jet engines are allowed? It becomes a simple contest of rocket ISP.

[SalmonellaDingDong]

This challenge makes little sense. Please read the sticky.

[mcirish3]

What is the point if no wings or jet engines are allowed? It becomes a simple contest of rocket ISP.

If it is so easy lets see you do it. Have you ever even tried, or are you just a troll?

This challenge makes little sense. Please read the sticky.

If you want me to clarify perhaps you should state what it is you don't understand.

[mcirish3]

Here is my entry for the challenge. I did not make this for the challenge, but was the inspiration for it. I made the challenge because if I want a fully reusable ship that can land on planet or moon (Jool excepted) and leave again I needed an SSTO that could meet the requirements of this challenge. Goal is to do a grand tour with a single vessel using only conventional fuel.

Edited May 28, 2013 by mcirish3

[tavert]

If a go-anywhere SSTO with refueling is what you're after, then a fairly simple design will do the trick: http://imgur.com/a/7slrW#0 (and of course I forgot to hit F3 again)

This should be able to land and take off even from Tylo if you refuel in Tylo orbit. It could land on Eve after burning off half its fuel but that would be a one-way trip.

[1096bimu]

If it is so easy lets see you do it. Have you ever even tried, or are you just a troll?

If you want me to clarify perhaps you should state what it is you don't understand.

I never said it was easy or I could do it. What I sad was that there is a very limited room for innovation, it's just straight up delta V. You almost don't need to launch anything, just see who has more delta V in the VAB.

[tavert]

I never said it was easy or I could do it. What I sad was that there is a very limited room for innovation, it's just straight up delta V. You almost don't need to launch anything, just see who has more delta V in the VAB.

If delta V were all that mattered, go ahead and try to launch a jumbo tank with one Nerva. There's a tradeoff between delta V and TWR, and plenty of room for innovation in fuel routing, engine choices, launch trajectories, etc. Constraints like single stage, no wings, no jets, etc are reasonable for people who want to make things more challenging.

This particular challenge of 200 km orbit and returning for landing is fairly simple in the list of things you can do in KSP with a rocket-only SSTO. You can try minimizing mass of a rocket-only SSTO, achieving solar escape with one (lump had a whole series of very innovative SSTO's that he tested by doing that), a round trip to the Mun, Tylo landing and ascent, maybe even Eve ascent (I'm doubtful whether that last one is doable, it may need wings if "SSTEO" is possible at all). I've made the mistake before, but ruling out innovation among KSP players is not wise.

[mcirish3]

This particular challenge of 200 km orbit and returning for landing is fairly simple in the list of things you can do in KSP with a rocket-only SSTO. You can try minimizing mass of a rocket-only SSTO, achieving solar escape with one (lump had a whole series of very innovative SSTO's that he tested by doing that), a round trip to the Mun, Tylo landing and ascent, maybe even Eve ascent (I'm doubtful whether that last one is doable, it may need wings if "SSTEO" is possible at all). I've made the mistake before, but ruling out innovation among KSP players is not wise.

Indeed Tavert I think you you summed up my goal rather nicely. I may not have limited the scope enough as you have clearly pointed out, and considering how many points you racked up on your submission you have mastered the trade offs for Delta-V to TWR. My real goal over all really has been focused ok at SSTO out of Eve, as my last screenshot demonstrates with all the tanker with a decided tendency towards Eve. What I was looking for in this challenge is some new ideas on SSTO for use eventually on Eve. Ideally I want to land as much weight as I can on Eve, and still get back out to low orbit, dock refuel and head off to other planets. Really I would like to do it as a single mission hence slowly placing all the tankers. I have a versatile mostly stock tanker rocket (I am using a large moded probe controller so I don't have to leave men in space) that can place a craft in any orbit. so that is not the problem. I do want Jeb, Bill and Bob too all land together If I can not sure that is possible though, considering the weight of the three maned command pod.

Note: Doh realized I missed 100 points for my launch.

Edit: I also would think ISP plays a role here too.

Edited May 28, 2013 by mcirish3

[Plur303]

My real goal over all really has been focused ok at SSTO out of Eve

Sorry. But that is simply impossible with a rocket or stock parts. It is hard enough to build a staged rocket capable of leaving Eve's surface and achieving orbit. And if you are even going to attempt it you definitely want wings to exploit the thick air on Eve. Wings work better on Eve than anywhere else in the game besides Jool. The thicker the air the better wings work.

And then there is the whole problem of how do you fly and land the massive rocket capable of leaving Eve's surface... Getting it there and landing it in one piece are huge hurdles in addition to leaving Eve.

Best of luck, but I'm telling you right now that a vertical SSTO from Eve is literally impossible with stock parts. And even if I'm wrong and it is technically possible, good luck transporting the massive ship capable of doing it to Eve and landing it in one piece... It is going to be a absolutely huge and ridiculous monster of a ship.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Plur303

[mcirish3]

It is going to be a absolutely huge and ridiculous monster of a ship.

No I don't think so. no reason it has to be monstrous. It is Delta V and TWR and ISP that matter. I agree though it is the ultimate challenge. I will be shooting for very low orbit since the atmosphere ends at 90km I will be shooting for a 91 km orbit.

[lump]

right it am here now,

time to fish

out all my old pictures. i have SSTOs that can escape the sun, have more than 4000m/s delta-v once in orbit,land on minus and return with less than 2000 fuel.

i can post all of the picture soon so be ready.

Pics:

i can get more pictures if you want

the only reason the rocket blew up was that it was molded into another one, not that it hit the ground too hard.

this has 1440 fuel so not much and i think i could make it a bit smaller as this thing can get to minmus and back.

Edited May 29, 2013 by lump

[lump]

Oh, mcirish3 you want an ssto to eve, i have sent tonnes of them, if you want i will make you one.

just name the people it needs to carry, how big of a payload it needs and i will give you one

i have literally made SSTO's for so long it is subconscious thought now.

oh taking off from eve may be a problem, i remember a thread asking for that, the only one was a plane that could barley make it, but i can still make a damn fine SSTO that will land and take off everywhere else

Edited May 29, 2013 by lump

[Plur303]

No I don't think so. no reason it has to be monstrous. It is Delta V and TWR and ISP that matter. I agree though it is the ultimate challenge. I will be shooting for very low orbit since the atmosphere ends at 90km I will be shooting for a 91 km orbit.

Best of luck. I would love for you to prove me wrong. I just don't see how it can be done.

It takes approximately 12,000 Delta V to reach Eve orbit from the surface. Maybe less if you can land on a high peak. ISP and air resistance is what kills you on Eve. The high pressure wrecks the ISP of any engine but the Aerospike and the dense air creates lots of drag so you need to keep your speeds slow on ascent.

I participated in this challenge and landed within 1 km of the launchpad but since I quicksaved my F3 report only showed my max altitude at 188,000... So I'm not posting it. It's not that great of a rocket anyways.

[lump]

Best of luck. I would love for you to prove me wrong. I just don't see how it can be done.

It takes approximately 12,000 Delta V to reach Eve orbit from the surface. Maybe less if you can land on a high peak. ISP and air resistance is what kills you on Eve. The high pressure wrecks the ISP of any engine but the Aerospike and the dense air creates lots of drag so you need to keep your speeds slow on ascent.

I participated in this challenge and landed within 1 km of the launchpad but since I quicksaved my F3 report only showed my max altitude at 188,000... So I'm not posting it. It's not that great of a rocket anyways.

you are right, it would take a big SSTO, a staged rocket can do it easily but not one person, not me or tavart or nao or anyone else could do it without a f-ck off great rocket, my main problem is the gravity, to get into orbit on eve you need 8000m/s at least, to get that on a staged vehicle it is easy, but it is actually the closest to impossible i have ever seen in ksp.

[tavert]

Here's what a staged Eve ascent from the highest mountain looks like: http://imgur.com/a/piTkF#0 (I believe the delta-V of SRB's isn't perfectly calculated by either MechJeb or KER right now)

It's only doable in under 8500 m/s if you have high enough TWR to keep up with terminal velocity through the lower atmosphere. The stock fuel tanks can never get more than 8400 m/s in a single stage unless you use nerva or ion engines. Several people have wondered about doing Eve ascent with an ion plane, but the number of solar panels you'd need would make it a lagfest. Nervas are quite heavy and less efficient than aerospikes at altitudes lower than 13670 m on Eve. It may be possible with a plane (will need wings so you can still ascend despite low TWR) powered by aerospikes initially (SRB's may also help with takeoff, but you'll have to carry the half-ton empty mass with 50% higher than normal drag the rest of the way), carrying Nervas either as dead weight at first or accepting the Isp penalty of using them early on, finishing the ascent entirely on Nervas. But I haven't seen anyone do it yet, so the combination of TWR and delta-V required may just be too demanding.

Edited May 29, 2013 by tavert

[mcirish3]

Here's what a staged Eve ascent from the highest mountain looks like: http://imgur.com/a/piTkF#0 (I believe the delta-V of SRB's isn't perfectly calculated by either MechJeb or KER right now)

It's only doable in under 8500 m/s if you have high enough TWR to keep up with terminal velocity through the lower atmosphere. The stock fuel tanks can never get more than 8400 m/s in a single stage unless you use nerva or ion engines. Several people have wondered about doing Eve ascent with an ion plane, but the number of solar panels you'd need would make it a lagfest. Nervas are quite heavy and less efficient than aerospikes at altitudes lower than 13670 m on Eve. It may be possible with a plane (will need wings so you can still ascend despite low TWR) powered by aerospikes initially (SRB's may also help with takeoff, but you'll have to carry the half-ton empty mass with 50% higher than normal drag the rest of the way), carrying Nervas either as dead weight at first or accepting the Isp penalty of using them early on, finishing the ascent entirely on Nervas. But I haven't seen anyone do it yet, so the combination of TWR and delta-V required may just be too demanding.

you are right, it would take a big SSTO, a staged rocket can do it easily but not one person, not me or tavart or nao or anyone else could do it without a f-ck off great rocket, my main problem is the gravity, to get into orbit on eve you need 8000m/s at least, to get that on a staged vehicle it is easy, but it is actually the closest to impossible i have ever seen in ksp.

Thanks guys for all the infor not going to stop me from trying but may give me some idea on how to do it. Lump Not going to be able to give you the point for no damage, sorry would not be fair to others who may try.

[lump]

it is ok, i will try again tomorrow, but this time i ill bother to add landing legs

[robertordf]

here!

fuel finished in the last 10m, few damage but landed!

http://imgur.com/a/U4rqL#0

By the skin of your teeth: achieve a 190 km orbit. 1000 pts (must get this award to qualify for further bonuses)

I AM JEB: achieve 190 km orbit without mechjeb: +100

Totally FLUID: Achieve a 190 km orbit without the use of boosters: +200 pts

Totally LAVA: Achieve a 190 km orbit without the use of Jet Engines: +200 pts

Doing what is asked: Achieve a 200 km orbit +100 pts

Above and beyond: 210+ km orbit: +200 pts

Doing a little extra: have extra things like lights, telemetry mods, science instruments etc.:+50 pts

Coming full circle: Land within 10km of KSP +100 pts

I know how to build them: Land within 10km of KSP without any damage to your craft: +100 pts

Ya, I am, a rocket scientist!: Land safely without parachutes: +300

Robinhood of arrow space: Land back on the launch pad. +500

Goliath on line! Get all the above achievements: +10,000

[lump]

wow, people are seriously over designing these craft. Guys, you can so it in 5 maybe 6 parts.

nice one robertordf though, i do like your craft, and it got pretty much all of the achievements, although nw i see it i am going to have to try to land on the launch pad, i foresee reloads.

Edited May 31, 2013 by lump

[rodion_herrera]

I am beginning to like this challenge Just built one that could reach 200 km, and done equatorial orbit (no mechjeb, all stock, heck I even wanted no ASAS, but I was too chicken ), had enough fuel for decent deorbit (not yet sure if I can aim properly for the cape), Now question is, will I have enough fuel (after parachutes) for soft landing? Hmmm we shall see! Challenge accepted

Update: So far, already reached 130kmx130km orbit, then did a deorbit burn to test if my chutes are enough without firing a brake-burn near surface, and yes it stands up. The only two things to refine now are:

a) Ascent profile, so I can easily reach 200 km and circularize time must be less than 6 seconds.

I managed to create a deorbit burn profile that places me on the same "continent" as KSC, but I have to refine it so I land beside KSC--I don't think I can aim for the pad, considering I don't have RCS and I don't intend to use fuel near landing.

So I'm all set!

Edited May 31, 2013 by rodion_herrera

[FirstyB]

No decouplers or staging allowed, but only a 100 point deduction for a damaged craft. That gives me an cunning plan...

Edited May 31, 2013 by FirstyB

[lump]

No decouplers or staging allowed, but only a 100 point deduction for a damaged craft. That gives me an cunning plan...

no i can see what you are doing to do, that is a bad FirstyB.No causing explosions to separate your craft