Let's Not.

[Sputnik-1]

Things really need to change.

Remember Minecraft?

How it had promise? How it was a really neat game that was going to be 3d dwarf fortress?

How it turned into a game full of half-assed features with a lazy dev all because the audience of the game encouraged such behavior and refused to admit things are wrong?

This is beginning to happen. To the community, at least. With the labeling of very significant bugs as "IT'S A FEATURE SO KERBAL," the instant shooting down of ANY criticism using strawmen, and being in general insufferable at times.

Things need to change, we need to be able to accept that there are things that can be criticised. Doing so will help the development of the game and help it grow, rather than have it become full of broken promises and "features."

I'm not trying to imply that the devs would let this become another minecraft, but I'd rather not take the risk of it happening.

This is discussion. Feel free to add to it or castrate me for having opinions.

[Nutbag Deluxe]

Agreed. But I have the feeling the devs have their own plans about the game, and won't dumb the game down so quickly if the community demands it.

[Monkthespy]

Minecraft was /never/ going to be a 3D Dwarf Fortress, it was going to be a sandbox building game using voxel based graphics.

And that is what it is.

With monsters.

But, I do agree, the deves shouldn't bow too much to the community.

EDIT: But they're not; needed to clarify that

[Sputnik-1]

Agreed. But I have the feeling the devs have their own plans about the game, and won't dumb the game down so quickly if the community demands it.

I believe so too, I have faith in the devs. However, the recent dev cycles have been worrying.

[Sputnik-1]

Minecraft was /never/ going to be a 3D Dwarf Fortress, it was going to be a sandbox building game using voxel based graphics.

It was. Take a look around, I'm sure you could dig up something about it.

[jfx]

While I don't agree with your point about minecraft...

Shutting down legitimate critic points by burning strawmen: SO MUCH THIS. Even moderators indulge in this.

[Dortmunder]

Well, the great thing about this game is how moddable it is.

I see it being able to be played the way you want to play it.

If you don't like something done to it you can change it, or find a mod that changes it how you like

[Anglave]

I think it would help your point if you provided some specific examples.

I know there are a couple bugs (or at least, areas that need attention) that have been in the game since at least 0.16 which I constantly hope will be addressed.

Thrust vectoring and some aspects of aerodynamic control surfaces are reversed in front of the center of mass.

The need to strut every fuel container together and every engine on is frustrating and adds to part counts. While struts should have a place, I feel that tank-tank and tank-engine connection strength and rigidity should be increased.

There's a bug in the fuel draw algorithm that sometimes asymmetrically draws from tanks connected in certain symmetric patterns. This has significantly impacted several of my designs.

But overall I'm still having a blast with the game, challenging myself and developing new designs to fulfill new missions. What, specifically, do you see the community overlooking?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Anglave

[whatisthisidonteven]

Unfortunately this thread is unlikely to go very far as you are either going to get drowned out by people calling you a whining kid/whatever or the thread will get locked by a moderator who has decided that it's just "insults". (Feel free to prove me wrong though)

I definitely agree that there are some big problems with the community - The word "entitled" in particular seems to be thrown about to the point where the word has no meaning. You want to give a suggestion? You're an entitled kid. You want to criticise part of the game? You're an entitled kid, and so on. The idea that the forums is a hugbox where nothing except constant praise to the devs has been created by the minecraft community and even some of the staff (The exceptions I can think of off the top of my head being people like Ted, Maxmaps, Harv, etc).

I think a big part is that these people don't realise that they are actually doing more harm than good to the game by drowning out any criticism and suggestions that aren't "lol add this its so kerbal XDD". I do love this game and I don't think I wasted any money at all, but the big part of the community has the potential to turn the game down the road of Minecraft. Although we have been told that Harv has a very solid vision of how the game is going to turn out, so we can hope that Harv isn't like Notch and won't abandon the game in favour of constantly getting his ass kissed as it seems that he really does love his creation.

Edited May 28, 2013 by whatisthisidonteven

[Sputnik-1]

I think it would help your point if you provided some specific examples.

I know there are a couple bugs (or at least, areas that need attention) that have been in the game since at least 0.16 which I constantly hope will be addressed.

Thrust vectoring and some aspects of aerodynamic control surfaces are reversed in front of the center of mass.

The need to strut every fuel container together and every engine on is frustrating and adds to part counts. While struts should have a place, I feel that tank-tank and tank-engine connection strength and rigidity should be increased.

But overall I'm still having a blast with the game, challenging myself and developing new designs to fulfill new missions. What, specifically, do you see the community overlooking?

If I recall correctly, the wobble from connections between parts was labeled as a feature because "it's so kerbal" along with being able to crash into UI elements before it was fixed mid .20 development.

There's more, I just don't have too many references in my hand currently that I can think of.

[PuffyV]

I don't mind there being bugs in the game. That's okay, as long as people bring them up and get them patched. People reporting bugs shouldn't be shot down by "it's a feature". People complaining about the bugs not being fixed shouldn't have "stop being so entitled" shouted at them. There are problems with the game and it's up to the community to bring them up and it's the developers jobs to acknowledge them and fix them. That's how game development works.

With that, I feel the community should also be able to complain about the state of the community without persecution as long as it's constructive criticism, like this thread.

Locking any thread, community or game bug related, is just putting it off until it becomes a real problem.

[JonhyBee]

I am new to KSP but was quite active in the Minecraft community (before the official "release" of the game made me sick of Notch's BS) and I agree with you that Minecraft had much greater potential and promises then what it ended up being.

However I cant see how it could ever be a 3d DF... I mean have you though of all those procedurally generated things being rendered at the same time? THe shear CPU power needed boggles the mind.

[whatisthisidonteven]

I am new to KSP but was quite active in the Minecraft community (before the official "release" of the game made me sick of Notch's BS) and I agree with you that Minecraft had much greater potential and promises then what it ended up being.

However I cant see how it could ever be a 3d DF... I mean have you though of all those procedurally generated things being rendered at the same time? THe shear CPU power needed boggles the mind.

If you were there right at the beginning you'd have seen what OP meant, it was pretty much going to be a 3D dwarf fortress.

[Leonov]

Just droping by to let you know, We only lock threads that violate the rules or provide no value to the community.

[AHO]

I still think minecraft is still okay, not completely up to it's potential, yes, but I still think it's a good game nonetheless.

Back on topic, I think that the community should be able to criticize and feedback how the game is since it, for the most part, lets the devs know what needs to be done with it but with the devs still maintaining on their main course and not implementing every single whim of the community. Just my opinion.

[whatisthisidonteven]

Just droping by to let you know, We only lock threads that violate the rules or provide no value to the community.

"Providing no value to the community" is entirely subjective though. Locking threads should be restricted to rule violations and requests from the thread OP imo. What provides no value to the community for you is not the same as what other people might consider providing no value to the community.

[T3E]

I think a big part is that these people don't realise that they are actually doing more harm than good to the game by drowning out any criticism and suggestions that aren't "lol add this its so kerbal XDD". I do love this game and I don't think I wasted any money at all, but the big part of the community has the potential to turn the game down the road of Minecraft.

What makes you think like that? As far as I experienced it (here), this is a community with a potential to outshine pretty much every other community in terms of productivity and kindness.

Although I am not familiar with the way Minecraft went, i highly doubt that the community will turn into something toxic.

And as long as the Devs follow their way they planned to do (but ofc LISTEN to the Community), I dont see a problem.

Maybe you could elaborate your point a little more, because I have trouble to understand your point of view.

Cheers

[pizzaoverhead]

A decreasing signal-to-noise is an issue with any community that expands rapidly. The solution is lots of good, constructive, impartial moderation that allows discussion and disagreement, but not dismissiveness and derision.

Easier said than done.

[itisdearflinch]

Just droping by to let you know, We only lock threads that violate the rules or provide no value to the community.

I'm not sure a moderation team that allows a Fur-Fetish megathread in the forums of a sandbox space sim should be in charge of determining which threads "provide value to the community".

[JonoRig]

I'm all for this, as long as it remains constructive; i have seen enough posts of people writing half arsed complaints, or just general whining; for example, i saw one that basically said "0.20 is bugged; fix it NOOOOW" or "Theres not enough parts in this update; it was a terrible update!" if people criticize with facts or genuine concerns or ideas etc; then fine... but ive stopped going on the steam forum for this because it just gave me a headache... the amount of people asking for stuff that has an identical thread directly under it just made me want to cry

[whatisthisidonteven]

What makes you think like that? As far as I experienced it (here), this is a community with a potential to outshine pretty much every other community in terms of productivity and kindness.

Although I am not familiar with the way Minecraft went, i highly doubt that the community will turn into something toxic.

And as long as the Devs follow their way they planned to do (but ofc LISTEN to the Community), I dont see a problem.

Maybe you could elaborate your point a little more, because I have trouble to understand your point of view.

Cheers

Look at the comments in the devblogs and some of the threads in the support section. Every time someone has a bit of criticism everyone swarms on that guy and just calls him an entitled whiner and various other things bordering on flat out insults, that's exactly what happened with the minecraft community and is the reason why the game became crap - The devs could literally get away with anything regarding Minecraft and they'd still have hordes of fanboys defending the decision.

Also a big portion of this community IS from the minecraft community, which is why the behaviour is the same. Minecraft players tend to flock to other indie games and ruin the community. Exceptions like Dwarf Fortress are like that because the game isn't accessible to the minecraft audience, it's very hard to get into.

[hoojiwana]

I'm all for this, as long as it remains constructive; i have seen enough posts of people writing half arsed complaints, or just general whining; for example, i saw one that basically said "0.20 is bugged; fix it NOOOOW" or "Theres not enough parts in this update; it was a terrible update!" if people criticize with facts or genuine concerns or ideas etc; then fine... but ive stopped going on the steam forum for this because it just gave me a headache... the amount of people asking for stuff that has an identical thread directly under it just made me want to cry

The thing is a lot of the perceived "general whining" that a large amount of the forum-userbase sees is also legitimate criticism. 0.20 is buggy, and some of the optimisation methods used weren't the best options (planetary textures). People writing off any criticism as whining is exactly what the OP and many people here are concerned about.

[Anglave]

I've posted once in this thread already. I agree that the community is important to the development and continued "vision" for the game. Furthermore, I share some of your concern about the direction this community may be headed in. It would be great to have some positive and creative suggestions about what we, as members of the community, might do to help improve the community as a whole.

I also feel it's important we remember that the game is in alpha, we're all volunteer testers, and major game-breaking bugs aren't unexpected. I'm impressed that it's been as stable as it has, honestly. That's not boot licking or apologist. I'm just saying, judging by the version number, this game is only 20% finished. And it works and we play it and it's fun.

That said, I hope they get their planetary surface meshes and textures straightened out soon. The step down in visual appeal between 0.19 and 0.20 is disappointing, but I hope it's a work in progress.

I've got my personal list of features I'd like to see added or improved.

1) Fuel draw code (asymmetric bug)

2) Control vectors inverted when ahead of center of mass

3) Visual appeal / surface meshes (and Kerbals/ships falling or sliding through the surface)

4) Maneuver Nodes not placing or jittery

5) Orbits (especially when near-circular) are jittery. I've got at least one craft that's ridiculously jittery in .20, even with apo and peri more than 1000m apart in Kerbin orbit. No mods, ASAS is not enganged, no RCS. But the orbit is all over the place so bad I haven't been able to dock with it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Anglave

[jfx]

I also feel it's important we remember that the game is in alpha, we're all volunteer testers, and major game-breaking bugs aren't unexpected. I'm impressed that it's been as stable as it has, honestly. That's not boot licking or apologist. I'm just saying, judging by the version number, this game is only 20% finished.

Dude, that's not how version numbers work. ಠ_ಠ

[air805ronin]

If I recall correctly, the wobble from connections between parts was labeled as a feature because "it's so kerbal" along with being able to crash into UI elements before it was fixed mid .20 development.

There's more, I just don't have too many references in my hand currently that I can think of.

I would love to see where someone with any weight said this... Unless that response came from Harv, C7, Nova, or any of the other developers I would NEVER put any weight behind it. Even community managers I don't particularly trust for technical details. If any of the development team said this it must have been a bad joke. From the responses I saw, it said that it was an acknowledged issue that they were working to resolve.

With respect to what the thread is about, I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why you and others in this thread feel this way. I can also see how many complaint threads do get labeled as entitlement/whining threads.

My views:

1. The developers should not necessarily ignore the community (especially regarding content suggestions), but they should put hitting milestones and sticking to the development plan as a priority. Avoid the Notch poison of saying "the forums are screaming for the Kerbals to have pet cats, lets add them!"
   
2. People who make complaint threads about bugs right after a version release would serve the community better by producing comprehensive bug reports in the support forum. Obviously, bug fixing of major bugs should be a priority.
   
3. People who complain about features being moved back or the developers changing their development plan due to items being too large for one update....well....this really is whining and is one of the things the developers should read and then continue on their path.
   
4. Having 3-4 threads each featuring the same people complaining about the same bugs? 3 of those threads should get locked as redundant.
   
5. Don't like locked threads? Its basic forum management to ensure that productive conversations are taking place. Conversations that have run their course or degenerated into insults should be locked.
   

I've done my best not to throw up straw men. I have not said that your bugs are features. I acknowledge that you have a right to say whatever you want whenever and wherever you want. That said, there are forums for specific conversations. There are people on both sides that certainly do act as if they feel entitled in the threads this threads references.

No doubt, judging from current posts in the thread, I probably should have kept working instead of typing this.

Also, whatever the original intent of Minecraft I did like what it became. 3D block building game with monsters? I enjoyed this, up until whatever patch I stopped actively playing. I feel like I got my $10 worth. I still occasionally fire it up. But the last 10 or so patches haven't exactly wowed me (though there have been engine optimizatioms I have noticed). You can see the point where Notch sort of just decided to almost randomly throw things into the game in the patch release notes. KSP hasn't shown that tendency yet. Off topic of course, but its been a recurring theme.